Do you feel bad for Arthas and how he never found peace

[Tuor]

uhhh..... what?

There is a mission in WC3 were Kelthu'Zad tels Arthas that Ner'Zull choosed him even before he was born, Ner'Zull scryed the future, and choosed Arthas to relise him from the Ice Throne, and later become his body.

Arthas is as much responsable for its acts as a spanish bull raised to serve in the arena and die there.

If we are to make Arthas responsable for its acts, then we can only make him responsable until the day he picks Frostmourne, because after that it wasn't Arthas anymore... Even the culling of stratholme isn't an entirely evil act, take the recent Ebola crisis as an example, how diferent Arthas was from, lets say, the american CDC? Well, he was, he refused to just give the orders to his man, and assumed himself the responsability of that act, that's noble, i really don't know many real people able to do that.

[Strategos]

Yep, selfishly protect power he wants and stick it to his brother, feeling no remorse for betraying the entire planet. It's not just about what he did, but why.

Sure, if you wanna spin it like that you should go work for Fox News or CNN you'd fit right in.

Blizzard's clear intention is that he was clearly aware of it from a pragmatic level as well. The fact that he happened to be painfully addicted to it isn't in any way incompatible with this notion which is something people seem to forget from playing as Illidan in the campaigns of WC3 - that is that he was extremely prudent.

I'm sorry if you think Illidan was portrayed as evil rather than chaotic neutral in Warcraft 3 I just can't take your opinion seriously so we should just stop.

[Aquamonkey]

There is a mission in WC3 were Kelthu'Zad tels Arthas that Ner'Zull choosed him even before he was born, Ner'Zull scryed the future, and choosed Arthas to relise him from the Ice Throne, and later become his body.

Arthas is as much responsable for its acts as a spanish bull raised to serve in the arena and die there.

Arthas was born in Year -4. Before the orcs even heard of Azeroth, possibly before Kil'jaeden approached Ner'zhul. If Ner'zhul could see that far into the future, he wouldn't have been tricked by KJ.

Also, after going through the WC3 missions, Kel'Thuzad said nothing even close to that.

Kel'Thuzad: Of course. He chose you to be his champion long before the Scourge even began.

Says nothing about Arthas' birth.

If we are to make Arthas responsable for its acts, then we can only make him responsable until the day he picks Frostmourne, because after that it wasn't Arthas anymore...

He was Arthas. Arthas is the ultimate expression of the LK idea.

I have a question regarding the storyline of Ner'zhul: is he finished, or what's going on with that?
"Yes. Yeah, Ner'zhul is done. He served us well in that capacity, but really the Lich King idea... really has the ultimate expression, you know, as Arthas or whatever. Ner'zhul's done." (BlizzCon2010)

- - - Updated - - -

Sure, if you wanna spin it like that you should go work for Fox News or CNN you'd fit right in.

Blizzard's clear intention is that he was clearly aware of it from a pragmatic level as well. The fact that he happened to be painfully addicted to it isn't in any way incompatible with this notion which is something people seem to forget from playing as Illidan in the campaigns of WC3 - that is that he was extremely prudent.

I'm sorry if you think Illidan was portrayed as evil rather than chaotic neutral in Warcraft 3 I just can't take your opinion seriously so we should just stop.

Yep, dooming the world and betraying his people for his selfish bid at power and to spite his brother. He showed no remorse in betraying them. A betrayal that very well could have led to everyone's deaths and the destruction of the world. So very pragmatic.

[Tuor]

Arthas was born in Year -4. Before the orcs even heard of Azeroth, possibly before Kil'jaeden approached Ner'zhul. If Ner'zhul could see that far into the future, he wouldn't have been tricked by KJ.

Also, after going through the WC3 missions, Kel'Thuzad said nothing even close to that.

Kel'Thuzad: Of course. He chose you to be his champion long before the Scourge even began.

Says nothing about Arthas' birth.

Yet, you claim that Ner'Zull can't see the future, and in the same post you contradict yourself, by posting Kel'Thuzad statment that he choosed Arthas has his champion long before the scourge was formed... Stupid question... How was the scourge formed? Wasn't it when KJ trapped Ner'Zull inside the LK armour? Oh... Another stupid question, wasn't that before Arthas was born, by coincidence?

I would say, looking in the transcript, that Ner'Zull did choosed Arthas Menethil to be his champion, led him to Frostmourne, so that his body could become soulness, and later posses his body, even before the poor prince was born. So, confirmed.

He was Arthas. Arthas is the ultimate expression of the LK idea.

I have a question regarding the storyline of Ner'zhul: is he finished, or what's going on with that?
"Yes. Yeah, Ner'zhul is done. He served us well in that capacity, but really the Lich King idea... really has the ultimate expression, you know, as Arthas or whatever. Ner'zhul's done." (BlizzCon2010)

That his a very interesting statment, because implies they the same entity. Judging by a famous quest in Howling Fjord, were we ear the LK claiming he was a shaman, when everyone knows he was a Paladin, the shaman was Ner'Zull, that stament and the quest pretty much confirm that Arthas Killed Ner'Zull has much has Ner'Zull killed Arthas, because he just can't even make a distinction from himself and Ner'Zull... In other words, you confirmed that the LK wasn't Arthas...

There are 3 diferent Arthas in Lore, the first one is Prince Arthas Menethil, after he picked up Frostmourne, he became Arthas the DK, a soulness entity unable to feel pity or remorse, and later, that mix of Arthas and Ner'Zull we all know has the LK.

[Bosen]

I am disturbed by Arthas' choices,but I don't feel bad for him.

[DarkTZeratul]

Yet, you claim that Ner'Zull can't see the future, and in the same post you contradict yourself, by posting Kel'Thuzad statment that he choosed Arthas has his champion long before the scourge was formed...

He said "If Ner'zhul could see THAT FAR" into the future. He acknowledged he could see the future, just that there are limits. If he was perfectly omniscient, he would have known Kil'jaeden was tricking him.

Stupid question... How was the scourge formed? Wasn't it when KJ trapped Ner'Zull inside the LK armour?

There's a broad range of time during which the Scourge was created, but you could certainly take the stance that it initially came into existence at the moment Kil'jaeden bound Ner'zhul to the armor.

Oh... Another stupid question, wasn't that before Arthas was born, by coincidence?

No, as Aquamonkey pointed out, Arthas was born four years before the Dark Portal even opened. He would have been about ten years old when Ner'zhul was turned into the Lich King.

[apepi]

Not everyone deserves peace.

[Aquamonkey]

Yet, you claim that Ner'Zull can't see the future, and in the same post you contradict yourself,

I never claimed Ner'zhul couldn't see the future. Just that he couldn't see that far into the future.

by posting Kel'Thuzad statment that he choosed Arthas has his champion long before the scourge was formed... Stupid question... How was the scourge formed? Wasn't it when KJ trapped Ner'Zull inside the LK armour? Oh... Another stupid question, wasn't that before Arthas was born, by coincidence?
I would say, looking in the transcript, that Ner'Zull did choosed Arthas Menethil to be his champion, led him to Frostmourne, so that his body could become soulness, and later posses his body, even before the poor prince was born. So, confirmed.

Except all that happened after Arthas was born...

Arthas was born in Year -4.
Ner'zhul was captured by KJ and turned into the Lich King in Year 8.
The Scourge was formed in Year 18.

That his a very interesting statment, because implies they the same entity. Judging by a famous quest in Howling Fjord, were we ear the LK claiming he was a shaman, when everyone knows he was a Paladin, the shaman was Ner'Zull, that stament and the quest pretty much confirm that Arthas Killed Ner'Zull has much has Ner'Zull killed Arthas, because he just can't even make a distinction from himself and Ner'Zull... In other words, you confirmed that the LK wasn't Arthas...

There are 3 diferent Arthas in Lore, the first one is Prince Arthas Menethil, after he picked up Frostmourne, he became Arthas the DK, a soulness entity unable to feel pity or remorse, and later, that mix of Arthas and Ner'Zull we all know has the LK.

All of the following was released after WotLK launched.

Arthas murders the manifestation of his humanity, then destroys Ner'zhul:

“We are one, Arthas. Together, we are the Lich King. No more Ner’zhul, no more Arthas—only this one glorious being. With my knowledge, we can—”
His eyes bulged as the sword impaled him.
Arthas stepped forward, plunging the glittering, hungering Frostmourne ever deeper into the dream-being that had once been Ner’zhul, then the Lich King, and was soon to be nothing, nothing at all. He slipped his other arm around the body, pressing his lips so close to the green ear that the gesture was almost intimate, as intimate as the act of taking a life always was and always would be.
“No,” Arthas whispered. “No we. No one tells me what to do. I’ve got everything I need from you—now the power is mine and mine alone. Now there is only I. I am the Lich King. And I am ready.”
The orc shuddered in his arms, stunned by the betrayal, and vanished.
...
Arthas, the Lich King, alone in his glory and power, slowly opened his eyes.
--Rise of the Lich King

In the manga Legends: Fate, Arthas says, "Ner'zhul is no more. He is consumed. There is only Arthas now..."

During BlizzCon 2010, Metzen said Arthas was the ultimate expression of the LK and that Ner'zhul is finished:

Q. I have a question regarding the storyline of Ner'zhul: is he finished, or what's going on with that?
A. "Yes. Yeah, Ner'zhul is done. He served us well in that capacity, but really the Lich King idea... really has the ultimate expression, you know, as Arthas or whatever. Ner'zhul's done." (Source)

The Ask CDev says Ner'zhul and Arthas had separate reigns as Lich King:

Yes, that does also mean that Arthas and Ner'zhul were not unleashing the full force of the Scourge during their respective reigns: you are welcome to speculate on the reasons for that. (AskCDev2)

Metzen says Ner'zhul is completely gone:

Is ne'zhul completely gone gone?
Far as I'm concerned. (ChrisMetzen)

I don't remember when Loreology posted this tweet, but it was sometime in 2014 before Aug 3. All his tweets disappeared when he deleted his account.

Okay, my friend and I are at each other's throats over this. Is Ner'zhul's spirit destroyed canonically or not?
So it seems per the Arthas novel (p. 307). (Loreology)

Blizzard initially intended the Lich King to be a blend of Arthas and Ner'zhul, but they changed the direction they went with that character. The Lich King was just Arthas.

[Tuor]

No, as Aquamonkey pointed out, Arthas was born four years before the Dark Portal even opened. He would have been about ten years old when Ner'zhul was turned into the Lich King.

Yet, Kel'Thuzad claims that Arthas was choosen long before the scourge was formed, and that implies a time before the creation of Ner'Zull has LK.

You know what? Its a damn lore trap, none of us is going to be able to prove any of his PoV's, me with my PoV that the Ner'Zull choosed Arthas before he was born, or Aquamonkey with his PoV that this would be impossible, just because we don't know how long Kel'Thuzad meaned to say.

[Darktbs]

Wish granted. Not only does that occur while you're obtaining the blades of the fallen prince. While you have them equipped you will discover "memories of Arthas" at different places in the BI where he comments on the current events that are occuring and gives you 50 artifact power.

I mean more,imagine a quest where you talk to Arthas and he tells you how was when he picked frostmourne,how he felt when he did the culling and the invasion of Quel'thalas,and gives you a few hints how to use your weapon.In the end he gives you either AP or a artifact appearance.There is so much they can do with the Frost Dk artifact in terms of Storytelling.

[Aquamonkey]

Yet, Kel'Thuzad claims that Arthas was choosen long before the scourge was formed, and that implies a time before the creation of Ner'Zull has LK.

You know what? Its a damn lore trap, none of us is going to be able to prove any of his PoV's, me with my PoV that the Ner'Zull choosed Arthas before he was born, or Aquamonkey with his PoV that this would be impossible, just because we don't know how long Kel'Thuzad meaned to say.

Since you ignored the post the first time....

Arthas was born in Year -4.

Varian was younger than Arthas? So that makes Jaina older than Varian?
Varian was born in Year -10 and Arthas in Year -4. It is currently Year 30. (Loreology)

Ner'zhul was captured and turned into the LK when he escaped Draenor's destruction. This happened in Year 8 (Ultimate Visual Guide), 12 years after Arthas was born.

The Scourge was formed after the War of the Spider (old World of Warcraft website).

War of the Spider took place while Thrall was liberating the orcs in Lordaeron.

"While Thrall was liberating his brethren in Lordaeron, Ner'zhul continued to build up his power base in Northrend."

Ultimate Visual Guide puts The New Horde in Year 18.


There's 10 years between when Ner'zhul was turned into the LK and when he formed the Scourge. That very well fits "long before the Scourge was formed." Nowhere does it ever imply that Ner'zhul planned this from before Arthas was born, before he even knew what Azeroth or a human was.

[Tuor]

Since you ignored the post the first time....

Arthas was born in Year -4.

Varian was younger than Arthas? So that makes Jaina older than Varian?
Varian was born in Year -10 and Arthas in Year -4. It is currently Year 30. (Loreology)

Ner'zhul was captured and turned into the LK when he escaped Draenor's destruction. This happened in Year 8 (Ultimate Visual Guide), 12 years after Arthas was born.

The Scourge was formed after the War of the Spider (old World of Warcraft website).

War of the Spider took place while Thrall was liberating the orcs in Lordaeron.

"While Thrall was liberating his brethren in Lordaeron, Ner'zhul continued to build up his power base in Northrend."

Ultimate Visual Guide puts The New Horde in Year 18.


There's 10 years between when Ner'zhul was turned into the LK and when he formed the Scourge. That very well fits "long before the Scourge was formed." Nowhere does it ever imply that Ner'zhul planned this from before Arthas was born, before he even knew what Azeroth or a human was.

Ok, roger and out, its almost midnight here, and i have to wake up early tomorrow.