[Shadow] 845 ilv , 40% haste - Do I keep going up?

[MissAnonymous]

What you are saying here is that crit is better than haste at some point. Is that true?

No, that's not what he's saying. He's saying haste is better. Period.

But if you have to choose between Haste Haste Haste and Haste Haste Crit, then having some Crit is always going to be beneficial. I believe the last number I saw tossed around was about 25% Crit.

So you want infinite amount of Haste and about 25% Crit. Nowhere in that statement is it being said that Crit is better.

[Jullyx]

No, that's not what he's saying. He's saying haste is better. Period.

But if you have to choose between Haste Haste Haste and Haste Haste Crit, then having some Crit is always going to be beneficial. I believe the last number I saw tossed around was about 25% Crit.

So you want infinite amount of Haste and about 25% Crit. Nowhere in that statement is it being said that Crit is better.

If "... haste is better. Period." there is no point where you'd prefer A:1200 haste+600 crit over B:1800 haste. If you at any gear level prefer A, that implies that the marginal value of crit is > than the marginal value of haste at the given gear level. It's a contradiction, as it can be rewritten to: "Haste is alwyas better, but if you have the option, get crit because it's better."

Either crit is better until you get w/e %, it's better to keep them at certain ratios or haste is always better.

Also, saying stuff like "crit is always going to be benefitial" means nothing. You can say the same thing about versatility and I'd get haste/haste over haste/versa any day.

The statement was "it's actually better to get haste/crit pieces" [better than haste only] and this cannot be true if haste is always >crit.
The reason I posted was that the same poster said "At no realistic point does crit pass it [haste], ever." and it seems misleading to say both these things, especially with such authority. I don't suggest that you shouldn't get some crit, I'm just questioning the logic behind these answers posted.

[Deleted]

I dont understand. How are you guys on 20-30% haste with ilv 840+? You really fucked up on the gearing process. Haste over everything, even intellect. I only have 2 pieces that give haste only, ring and belt. Ilv 830 with haste/crit > ilv 850 with mastery crit

[Deleted]

I dont understand. How are you guys on 20-30% haste with ilv 840+? You really fucked up on the gearing process. Haste over everything, even intellect. I only have 2 pieces that give haste only, ring and belt. Ilv 830 with haste/crit > ilv 850 with mastery crit

jeah thats why i´m still at item lv 833 because most dungon gear ist not as good as the item 15 ilvl lower.

[Deleted]

Hey, I have 12k haste on my ilvl 842 spriest and I did some simulations. with MY characters gear. On patchwerk 1 target I had the stat prio haste > crit > int > mastery > vers. On helterskelter (realistic fight, aka movements and stuns) I remember crit was stronger than haste. And on encounters with 2-3 targets (both patchwerk and helterskelter) mastery and crit was stronger than haste.

I'm at work atm, but ill come back with real simulation statistics.. it's not black and white that haste is king I think... Someone can prob elaborate on this

[Deleted]

Hey, I have 12k haste on my ilvl 842 spriest and I did some simulations. with MY characters gear. On patchwerk 1 target I had the stat prio haste > crit > int > mastery > vers. On helterskelter (realistic fight, aka movements and stuns) I remember crit was stronger than haste. And on encounters with 2-3 targets (both patchwerk and helterskelter) mastery and crit was stronger than haste.

I'm at work atm, but ill come back with real simulation statistics.. it's not black and white that haste is king I think... Someone can prob elaborate on this

Don't see how that would work. Majority of damage comes from S2M which allows cast while moving.

[Deleted]

It's not majority if the simulations are made with lengths of 400 seconds. Personally i've kept S2M uptime at most 105 seconds. Also yes, the simulations are made with S2M and Auspicious Spirits.

[Deleted]

It's not majority if the simulations are made with lengths of 400 seconds. Personally i've kept S2M uptime at most 105 seconds. Also yes, the simulations are made with S2M and Auspicious Spirits.

105 seconds? I think that's where the issue is, with 40% haste I can keep it for 150 seconds without heroism.

[Deleted]

Well to be fair that's in mythics as most bosses doesn't live longer. But it doesn't change the fact that you are only able to use S2M for 37% of the fight in an optimal environment. Probably less in a real encounter. And the longer the encounter is the less impact S2M will have. Still i'm quite confident in simulationcraft stats weights. I've also calculated without S2M, and once movement and more than 1 target is present crit and mastery weighs more than haste. I will return with a new thread for these calculations when im home from work if someone else havn't already.

[Kilee25]

Not that I am playing anymore, but you need some division between what you want to build sets for. We are long past the point where we just build a single set of gear for everything.

There should be dungeon set, and a raid set. One focusing on short bursty fights with either MS or legacy, and another on long single/double target fights with S2M. Establish a goal and a set of talents that match that goal. From there, double down on your strengths and don't try to compensate for weaknesses (i.e. Forget ae/shadow crash).

Make sure the APL in simcraft is using the same sequences of spells that you would actually use in game. Do a bunch of edge case scenarios with different "realistic" levels of haste and crit and possibly mastery too.

What you will probably find is that it is either completely linear all the way down, or there's some interdependence between haste and crit, which forms a sort of soft cap or "sweet spot".

Finally, don't just assume someone else has looked into all this. In my experience other TCers only research what they care about, and they usually only find answers that support what they want to find.

[Deleted]

I dont understand. How are you guys on 20-30% haste with ilv 840+? You really fucked up on the gearing process. Haste over everything, even intellect. I only have 2 pieces that give haste only, ring and belt. Ilv 830 with haste/crit > ilv 850 with mastery crit

You don't understand how not everyone has millions of gold to spend on crafted gear with BiS stats? "Oookay"

[Djriff]

If "... haste is better. Period." there is no point where you'd prefer A:1200 haste+600 crit over B:1800 haste. If you at any gear level prefer A, that implies that the marginal value of crit is > than the marginal value of haste at the given gear level. It's a contradiction, as it can be rewritten to: "Haste is alwyas better, but if you have the option, get crit because it's better."

Crit is valuable due to it's interaction with AS and the insanity it provides. While haste is certainly valuable, crit isn't that far behind. If you have a low amount of crit then you will perform worse with StM than a pure haste build due to the lack of insanity generation via spirits, which is the primary source.

Either crit is better until you get w/e %, it's better to keep them at certain ratios or haste is always better.

If you have no crit surprisingly San'layn is the better talent for DPS with a decent amount of haste. As always sim yourself to see what works for your gear. As I said above, crit is important for insanity generation. Funnily enough if you get the belt and get 2 charges of MB, you can ignore crit entirely as you want to focus haste/mastery pieces.

Also, saying stuff like "crit is always going to be benefitial" means nothing. You can say the same thing about versatility and I'd get haste/haste over haste/versa any day.

The statement was "it's actually better to get haste/crit pieces" [better than haste only] and this cannot be true if haste is always >crit.
The reason I posted was that the same poster said "At no realistic point does crit pass it [haste], ever." and it seems misleading to say both these things, especially with such authority. I don't suggest that you shouldn't get some crit, I'm just questioning the logic behind these answers posted.

Versatility provides absolutely no direct benefit to us AND scales worse than int, hence why on all the stat weight it is below everything.
Mastery scales well and provides a buff to our dots, more so than Int.
Crit is valuable due to AS, if you're not running AS then crit doesn't matter a whole lot and you should instead focus mastery.

That's the logic behind it.

Hey, I have 12k haste on my ilvl 842 spriest and I did some simulations. with MY characters gear. On patchwerk 1 target I had the stat prio haste > crit > int > mastery > vers. On helterskelter (realistic fight, aka movements and stuns) I remember crit was stronger than haste. And on encounters with 2-3 targets (both patchwerk and helterskelter) mastery and crit was stronger than haste.

I'm at work atm, but ill come back with real simulation statistics.. it's not black and white that haste is king I think... Someone can prob elaborate on this

You need to do a lot more sims with a lot of different talents to get your stat weights. You're looking at a handful of situations (albeit 10,000 times of the same situation) but you need more data. Additionally stat weights will swing wildly depending on your stats, another reason why you need to do a metric ton of sims to calculate them.

Finally, don't just assume someone else has looked into all this. In my experience other TCers only research what they care about, and they usually only find answers that support what they want to find.

Twintop did 100+ sims and posted a link to all of them. The current stat priorities take into account virtually every single talent/encounter type/fight length. It was done using the best gear in EN and then all the weights were averaged out.

[Alexieel]

849 with 30% haste. But have only used 100haste sockets, no single haste item (and no crafted gear), and two pieves without haste (Gloves and Trinket) ..
So I guess with some luck tomorrow (ID reset) I can get around 35%.

/edit:

Funnily enough if you get the belt and get 2 charges of MB, you can ignore crit entirely as you want to focus haste/mastery pieces.
[...]
Crit is valuable due to AS, if you're not running AS then crit doesn't matter a whole lot and you should instead focus mastery.

Are there weighted stats for the scenario with the belt? In the guides I only find S2M; LotV/MS and combined values. I have around 10k haste, 3.8k crit and 4.5k mastery, so the best would be to drop some crit (eg. swapping my ilvl850 Int/Crit Trinket to my ilvl845 HoV) and get as much mastery as I can (after haste)?

[Djriff]

849 with 30% haste. But have only used 100haste sockets, no single haste item (and no crafted gear), and two pieves without haste (Gloves and Trinket) ..
So I guess with some luck tomorrow (ID reset) I can get around 35%. I just wish all my Haste/Mastery would be Haste/Crit... sitting at 53% Mastery and only 16% crit :s

Well, that's not necessarily bad, at least your dots hit like a truck.

[Deleted]

Twintop did 100+ sims and posted a link to all of them. The current stat priorities take into account virtually every single talent/encounter type/fight length. It was done using the best gear in EN and then all the weights were averaged out.

Mind sharing that data?

[Djriff]

Mind sharing that data?

I don't have the link handy but it's on his twitter and is pinned in the class discord, neither of which I can access right now.

[Alexieel]

Well, that's not necessarily bad, at least your dots hit like a truck.

Guess it just not bad, it is pretty good after reading your post regarding, since I have the belt

[Djriff]

Guess it just not bad, it is pretty good after reading your post regarding, since I have the belt

Well you lucky duck you! I haven't even gotten the smell of a legendary yet.

[Jullyx]

I understand all the synergies the different stats have with talents and abilites, though it doesn't matter in this case. What I don't understand is how crit can "at no point pass it [haste]. ever." while a haste+crit ring is better than a haste only ring.

I know versatility is our worst stat, that's why i chose it in that sentence. My point was that saying "haste is best, but get crit because it's beneficial" is illogical and not something you can quantify. I could say the same about versatility and it would have the same meaning. "A is best, but get B because it also has value."

I still don't understand the logic and I honestly don't mean to be criticizing, I'm just curious. If there is a reason such as "you are willing to drop some haste, despite it being the better stat in order to not be underperforming on certain encounters where crit is more valueable", that would be totally reasonable.

I am obviously assuming that we are talking about the combined weights of sims when discussing which stat is better. Otherwise it would be no point.

[Djriff]

Yes I'm referencing combined stat weights in this discussion.

I can also understand your frustration. Crit is good because it extends voidform essentially. You hit the GCD cap with 100% haste. at 400% haste MB can technically be spammed as it's CD is the length of the GCD, however you'll never get there. It's not that haste has a soft or hard cap you want, but crit pairs so well with haste that it's worth grabbing when running AS. If you're not running AS you can go full haste and be fine.