Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[Ryker25]

I mean to be fair there isnt an actual guide based on heroic/mythic DPS. I would be the first to admit when I started I was literally rolling on trash and bosses until I hit a 2 roll or better. Realized eventually and with the help of my buds that doing so was bad. Yes one line in that guide says mythic+ and raid boss dps so it doesnt apply, but some people havent been playing Rogue for very long, if not ever pre Legion, AND have never been one to theory craft or spend time in the Lab to figure this stuff out. So yes if people are following a guide written for raid bosses and dont understand how to pre roll and how to react in certain situations lets call them retards and laugh at their inferior DPS without actually explaining whats wrong.

Edit - The importance of SiW / True Bearing is so large on bosses that spending time pre loading dice rolls on the last 1 or 2 mobs the entire time even if you start the boss with 15 seconds left is so great that I *Highly* recommend doing so. Im not saying to spend the entire time on an aoe pack Rolling dem bones, but DPS one one or two trash mobs can be forfeit to really see Dat Deeps on the boss.

[Geehbee]

The thing is, it's been explained 2-3 times per page in this thread, which is just going in circles. People would rather theorycraft all day rather then hit the practice dummies for half an hour to figure out what works with their gear.

Everyone demanding a set in stone rotation for something as RNG based as Outlaw is counter productive.

[Ryker25]

I mean you kind of can guarantee a set rotation as long as you have shark infested waters or true bearing for the boss pull. Maybe I'm not seeing what you're saying but the majority of these posts are why is my DPS lower then everyone else's.

[Master Guns]

You guys keep talking about setting up buffs for boss pulls. Since when do tanks listen to the whims of a rogue for their pulling methods?

[Ealyssa]

"QQ nerf Outlaw".... meanwhile Havoc DHs, Enha Shamans

are 20 to 50k bellow...

If a enh shaman come close to your DPS it's either a super shity RtB bad streak or a L2P issue.

[Ryker25]

In over 100 heroics and 2 weeks of mythics I can pretty easily say Ive never had a problem with being able to pre roll on bosses. Like I saod earlier even 15 seconds of SiW duration would give me enough for reason to Pop riposte and face pull if the tank is taking too long. I will grant you that keeping alacrity stacks on is a bigger challenge, butt at this point fights don't need to be explained before the pull so there isn't a single reason you can give me why you can't have some duration of roll the bones left.

[ymirsson]

You guys keep talking about setting up buffs for boss pulls. Since when do tanks listen to the whims of a rogue for their pulling methods?

If you pug, you deserve anything bad that happens to you. And also, you lose all rights to complain about anything.
Get a guild and enjoy your coordinated fights. Maybe.

[Ryker25]

I can tell you I also seem to have horrible luck with 1 roll streaks aswell, and with that multiple repeats of useless rolls. But it happens. And if you cant get SiW or TB with the 6 or so pre boss rolls, it aucks but you do what you can with it. For every time I roll my ass off and get jolly roger or grand melee 6 times, I get a 6 buff roll and I destroy meters. You just have to take what you get and go. Thats part of the spec. There is nothing you can do about it on Single target, HOWEVER; if there are low health adds, I would save Mark for them and try to reroll mid fight. If that doesnt work bro, its RNG. Nothing else can be done. Worst thing you can do is reroll on the opener 4 times and come up with nothing. Its going to feelbadman but that really doesnt happen often at all if youre actually doing what we all suggest. Cant have your cake and eat it too. Gotta roll at the end of trash and move on with what it gives you. Also, I didnt really notice a huge increase in DPS until I was somewhere in the 840s~ Im sure learning the spec and gear came together in a perfect union at that time but you shouldnt even worry about your dps until you atleast have full purples stacking Vers. And Crit.

[Master Guns]

LOL, right, because the only time anyone runs a dungeon is with a 5/5 guild group. You're fucking braindead.

Infracted.

[Blayke]

Another thing to remember is that the dps predictions of 2 buffs vs. 1 one seem to assume that you get 2 buffs on your next reroll. Obviously this is not always the case (otherwise this thread might not be this long .) Too many rerolls and you just screw your overall dps. Clearly there is a sweet spot with this, but I don't think it's been found yet. Maybe that simply can't be simmed. Depending on the length of the encounter, it may be wiser to just ride out a 1 buff rtb after 1 or two rerolls. Not optimal on paper, perhaps, but maybe better in an actual encounter. And don't forget that, at least according to sims, even if you never reroll you're still slightly ahead of S&D, so in reality you're playing with house money here.

[enzi]

All good tips, but there's a few qq'ers in here that will continue to QQ and wont listen. They just blame rng and leave it at that, instead of playing smarter.

Give it up with your condescending, play smarter attitude. There are people who are getting triggered hard when RNG is going against them. There's no arguing, no tips, no nothing for them. It is like it is. Soon they will change spec and that's about it.
@Ryker25: Getting numbers from dungeons with possible 1-3 stacks of luck of the draw is a bit problematic but you provide some really good tips that I'll try out. I think I'm in the camp who uses SS/PS with 5cps. Over the course of 1-2min that can easily accumulate to some millions of lost RT damage.
I'll also change to MfD instead of DfA. DfA can be fun with TB but overall MfD is more versatile.

And maybe it would be better if we start talking in base numbers without RtB. The thing is that gear scales so drastically and relics can be so different that we can have situations where someone has much lower dps than expected but is doing nothing wrong. With the anxious feeling that people are getting more RNG luck it's just ending in stupid discussions that go nowhere.
Also, I'm at 841 ilvl and not pulling that much. Not even close tbh. But my high weapon ilvl distorts some of this. I'm missing at least 5 epic pieces and most have Haste/Mastery on it.

edit:
About rerolling: I'll do the same thing that the sim does. Reroll max 3 times on the opener, 1 without AR/CoD and 2 with. I'll take what I get and leave it at that. RT dmg is too much to waste cp on rerolling. Maybe with MfD I'll add one more but I'm not sure.

[Varaben]

In my experience you roll 1 buff multiple times in a row way more than starting with 2 good buffs or the rare 3.

To be fair, you probably don't recall the positive experiences as much as the negative ones.

At the same time, I had back to back 6x rolls last night, so RNG can do some great things sometimes. I've given up rerolling 1 RtB in heroics/mythics as others have indicated; on short fights it really doesn't seem worth it. I get what the numbers say, but in practice, it's zero fun to reroll 3-4 times and waiting until the boss is at 25% before actually getting to run through. As long as I have a decent one (Energy regen, Crit, combo points), I just go with that and hope it rerolls better in 45 seconds.

[Master Guns]

I love how everyone has a retort or an excuse for people claiming they get one rolls constantly. The more people say it, the more and more the excuses come pouring in.

[Smaxy]

I'm having a really hard time believing those numbers. Fate's Thirst is good for obvious reasons, but Fatebringer seems drastically over valued.

I trust Fierydemise and Shasch. Keep in mind, the numbers for iLVL differences are for the relics, not lvl of artifact weapon.

Also this topic of RNG has gotten ridiculous. Wait until raid bosses when fights are 5-10 minutes long and don't reroll sub-optimally.

[mikeezy]

You and others crying about rolls aren't talking about just rolling 1 buff two times in a row. Don't try to change your qq tune now.

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All good tips, but there's a few qq'ers in here that will continue to QQ and wont listen. They just blame rng and leave it at that, instead of playing smarter.

The issue comes from people who play in an instance the same way they should play in a raid where rerolling over and over IS playing smarter. Like I said earlier, it's heavily detrimental using your first few 5-6 cp finishers rerolling rather than hitting the boss with RTs.

If my math is right, getting 1 buff 3 times in a row is still one 27% chance to happen vs getting a 3 buff roll at 35%. Imagine spending your first 18 points on RtB. Not only are they missing a couple RTs, but they're likely delaying their burst too, which will likely translate into getting one less AR in also.

I think a good general rule, as stated by others in here, is just don't rerolling on the shorter fights or fights with small dps windows.

[Coldkil]

Ok, now the crusade has ended. Please get back on tracks and avoid getting nasty.

[Notter]

I need help understanding these tables
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1314953135

So, next to Fate's First, it say 63.
and next to black powder, it says 4.

does that mean that if i have a relic with Fate's first, that is like 50ish ilvls lower than the one with black powder.... it's still better?

[Sephiroso]

I need help understanding these tables
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1314953135

So, next to Fate's First, it say 63.
and next to black powder, it says 4.

does that mean that if i have a relic with Fate's first, that is like 50ish ilvls lower than the one with black powder.... it's still better?

I don't pretend to fully understand the numbers in that spreadsheet, but i believe you are correct. Its why fiery gave that tl;dr to choose the better trait, because its super unlikely you'll be making decisions based on such a huge ilvl difference in relics.

[Deleted]

You and others crying about rolls aren't talking about just rolling 1 buff two times in a row. Don't try to change your qq tune now.

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All good tips, but there's a few qq'ers in here that will continue to QQ and wont listen. They just blame rng and leave it at that, instead of playing smarter.

Heh. I proved you wrong and all you have to say is: you cry, others cry - qq

Yes it's annoying when you get a bad roll streak, and it happens. But the before mentioned conversation was about getting exactly two 1-rolls in a row over two good buff rolls. Deal with being wrong. You don't HAVE to try and get people to dislike you all the time you know.

A big part of dealing with the rng is understanding how it works and what is most likely to happen if you choose to rerolling again. There is no point kidding yourself into thinking you will magically get two good buffs every other roll

[WhatIsLegion]

People are downplaying the FUCK out of bad rolls in this thread, acting like they get 6 buff rolls every boss and it's not that bad, shaming people for saying they have to reroll 5-6 times on a boss fight. It's laughable.

I agree people are really down playing bad luck when it comes to rolls, over 100 heroic dungeons and all mythic dungeons every week I've kept track of all the 6 buff boss pulls I've gotten for a grand total of 5.

That being said, there are ways to play smarter and do your best to minimize the bad luck of rolls which others have also pointed out.