Arms Legion Discussion

[Bigbazz]

Because Arms is actually overpowered and it makes zero sense to give the spec a marginal buff after nerfing it.

Let me put the 30 second CS buff in perspective, Legion Arms is basically close to the 20 second locked CS cd we had in WoD. And considering how retarded FR + Anger Management + Deadly Calm is, Battle Cry basically guarantees a free Tactician proc.

The whole point of Tactican is the RNG element of it. You're supposed to have rare periods of extreme downtime to somewhat hinder the extreme overpowered periods of constant CS resets..

You've just taken what you think the intent/design of the spec should be and used that as an assumption that it's the same as Blizzards vision. Also, it should be noted that most of us would consider a spec with extreme downtime via RNG built into the spec as a terrible design choice for making engaging gameplay. Anything over 20 seconds wait on CS resets feels disgusting and gimps the gameplay.

The 30s CS cooldown change is only a good thing, even 30 seconds downtime is fucked.

Focus Rage is to good, not Arms. It should have been nerfed down to 25%, and still that might be OP.

I never understand the Warriors who say "oh we're top damage, we should be nerfed so hard that we're underwhelming, because".. Some class has to be top damage, and as amazing as it might sound it's fine for that class to be Warriors, we've been there in the past without needing nerfs, in times when class balance on single target was a thing.

But no these days Warriors are so conditioned to being not top damage that they ask for nerfs when they do get there "I don't think you nerfed us hard enough Blizz, I'm not a fan of playing this spec and I might still do good dps so could you please nerf us again, thanks".


Have some perspective here, you're talking about heavy nerfs to a class that was competing with a few other specs for number 1 single target, while requiring a legendary nobody has to do cleave and having zero sustained AOE, burst AOE only if you blow all your cooldowns gimping your single target for it. Meanwhile other specs are doing 4-5x as much dps with ease on AOE whilst being close enough on single target.

But fuck it, maybe 400% behind on AOE but we're 10% ahead on single target so nerf that shit by 30%!

[swingline]

Arms does one thing well, that is/was single target. There is no reason why it shouldn't be strong. Every other dps class seems to have a handle on AOE and pulling 500-1m+ burst on trash mobs and aoe sets. Arms can't even pull half of that with warbreaker and bladestorm and that's once every 1.5 minutes. Cleave and whirlwind are a joke for damage compared to what other classes bring. Any additional balancing to arms should be a buff to AOE damage, that's all that really lacks at this point.

[Deleted]

Arms does one thing well, that is/was single target. There is no reason why it shouldn't be strong. Every other dps class seems to have a handle on AOE and pulling 500-1m+ burst on trash mobs and aoe sets. Arms can't even pull half of that with warbreaker and bladestorm and that's once every 1.5 minutes. Cleave and whirlwind are a joke for damage compared to what other classes bring. Any additional balancing to arms should be a buff to AOE damage, that's all that really lacks at this point.

If you can't pull 500-1m+ burst aoe you are either shit or your gear is full of crit and haste

[reakwon]

Quick question on the exploit weakness relic discussion. How many item levels does a tactition relic make up for for a non dps increase relic? 20?

[Xeley]

Quick question on the exploit weakness relic discussion. How many item levels does a tactition relic make up for for a non dps increase relic? 20?

Around 20, yeah. Getting those SD buffs is so incredibly important that it almost (not really) out shines the actual debuff put on by CS itself. But unless you feel like you want to sim every single relic, 20 is a good number to go by.

[GT4]

Arms does one thing well, that is/was single target. There is no reason why it shouldn't be strong. Every other dps class seems to have a handle on AOE and pulling 500-1m+ burst on trash mobs and aoe sets. Arms can't even pull half of that with warbreaker and bladestorm and that's once every 1.5 minutes. Cleave and whirlwind are a joke for damage compared to what other classes bring. Any additional balancing to arms should be a buff to AOE damage, that's all that really lacks at this point.

May I inform you about the presence of SPs? Or frost mages (assuming you meant spec because arms is a spec, not a class)? Or Sub?
All of those specs have no AoE to speak of and they were at least 20% behind arms for single target as well.

It's hilarious you believe that arms should be top single target DPS (by such a huge margin compared to the average as well), have decent to strong burst AoE with warbreaker/bladestorm and have good sustained AoE as well.

[pibacc]

I think I was doing more, but of course that was pre FR nerf... Although the FR nerf is only about a 6-7% performance decrease so it seems like something may be off?

What is your mastery percentage? Your mastery is the most important thing to look at. If it's like 35-40% then yeah, you're not going to pull very good numbers. Mine for reference at 842 ilevel is 74%.

I'm currently at 849 Ilvl with 97% inc dmg on CS, but ofc being a warrior dps I'm stuck tanking every mythic if I want to get in quickly.

[Flytanx]

I got the legendary gloves today and the rotation is soooooo much smoother because of them. Hated the spec before and still not a huge fan, but they make it bearable.

[Xeley]

May I inform you about the presence of SPs? Or frost mages (assuming you meant spec because arms is a spec, not a class)? Or Sub?
All of those specs have no AoE to speak of and they were at least 20% behind arms for single target as well.

It's hilarious you believe that arms should be top single target DPS (by such a huge margin compared to the average as well), have decent to strong burst AoE with warbreaker/bladestorm and have good sustained AoE as well.

S2M SPs were/are great in raids judging from beta data. Frost mages are weak, and need a buff. Sub will apparently outscale Outlaw with the current tuning of the speccs, so it's a specc that is in reality stronger than both Outlaw and Arms, but is gear gated.

So yeah..

[Imsupers]

Around 20, yeah. Getting those SD buffs is so incredibly important that it almost (not really) out shines the actual debuff put on by CS itself. But unless you feel like you want to sim every single relic, 20 is a good number to go by.

Is it 20 based on the ilvl of relic or 20 based on how much ilvl it gives ur wep?

[Saiona]

I got the legendary gloves today and the rotation is soooooo much smoother because of them. Hated the spec before and still not a huge fan, but they make it bearable.

Everyone here is probably incredibly jealous of you now. I know I am lll

[Valkaneer]

I never understand the Warriors who say "oh we're top damage, we should be nerfed so hard that we're underwhelming, because".. Some class has to be top damage, and as amazing as it might sound it's fine for that class to be Warriors, we've been there in the past without needing nerfs, in times when class balance on single target was a thing.

But no these days Warriors are so conditioned to being not top damage that they ask for nerfs when they do get there "I don't think you nerfed us hard enough Blizz, I'm not a fan of playing this spec and I might still do good dps so could you please nerf us again, thanks".


Have some perspective here, you're talking about heavy nerfs to a class that was competing with a few other specs for number 1 single target, while requiring a legendary nobody has to do cleave and having zero sustained AOE, burst AOE only if you blow all your cooldowns gimping your single target for it. Meanwhile other specs are doing 4-5x as much dps with ease on AOE whilst being close enough on single target.

But fuck it, maybe 400% behind on AOE but we're 10% ahead on single target so nerf that shit by 30%!

Who do you think your joking here? FR is pulling stupid numbers over any other Warrior spec by huge margins. 10%? Ahead of what 1 or 2 classes? When every other class is 20-30% lower still? You know what your going to get if you don't balance the spec? A rest of the Xpac nerf to the bottom, cuz that is what Blizzard does. Just look at Arms in WoD, was one of the best Nerfed to the bottom. FR is still what 20-25% higher than most other melee, and certainly 25% than any other Warrior spec.

Also damn near every well known theory crafter says FR AoE is very solid and does exceptionally well. I want a balanced class, not an OP one that forces every warrior into the same spec. Everyone can live in their dream world and say, well you can play anything there all good. Sorry no, that's not true. 25% more dps than other warriors specs is not something you get to say no to. Well you can, but you will be treated like Arms warriors were in HFC before your 4 pc, trink, and weapon. Which was if your not wearing the gear you don't go cuz fury is dime a dozen and easily out performs. You could take a shit fury warrior and do twice the dps as a 90% Arms warrior before the set piece bonuses cuz they increased Arms damage by 50% alone.

If they don't fix FR they will nerf it and they will nerf it very hard, it will become the worst warrior spec and that is where it will stay for probably the rest of the xpac, and we that have been asking for balance will say, that's damn shame, to bad the FR FOTM grp didn't ask for balance cuz now their scrapping the bottom.

[TummyBoy]

I'm currently at 849 Ilvl with 97% inc dmg on CS, but ofc being a warrior dps I'm stuck tanking every mythic if I want to get in quickly.

Can you link your armory? I want to see how you got 97% inc damage on CS because that's absolutely insane. I don't doubt you have it, but I have one 840 and one 850 trinket, both with pure str and mastery, and I'm still nowhere near you.

In terms of tanking I'm perfectly happy to do so for a faster in on mythics. I like to set the pace of the dungeon personally. And tanking is really easy anyway so yeah, sign me up.

[Anbokr]

I got the legendary gloves today and the rotation is soooooo much smoother because of them. Hated the spec before and still not a huge fan, but they make it bearable.

you lucky SOB

whad you get it from?

[nativity]

I got the legendary gloves today and the rotation is soooooo much smoother because of them. Hated the spec before and still not a huge fan, but they make it bearable.

U lucky b******* .. but gratz !

[wrastor]

Can you link your armory? I want to see how you got 97% inc damage on CS because that's absolutely insane. I don't doubt you have it, but I have one 840 and one 850 trinket, both with pure str and mastery, and I'm still nowhere near you.

In terms of tanking I'm perfectly happy to do so for a faster in on mythics. I like to set the pace of the dungeon personally. And tanking is really easy anyway so yeah, sign me up.

I have 87% mastery, which is 102% increase damage. It's easy if you aim for 'Harmonious' crafted gear until you get mythic warforged with sockets.

[Bigbazz]

Who do you think your joking here? FR is pulling stupid numbers over any other Warrior spec by huge margins.

So you're comparing them to other Warrior builds instead of all of the other dps specs in the game? The other Arms builds do shit dps because they are designed in such a way that they will always do shit dps because they do not synergise well on single target, and perhaps need masses more gear to work, on AOE the non FR builds actually perform better. Same goes for Fury, it shits all over Arms on AOE (especially FR) but suffers on low target cleave and single target because it got nerfed hard during the beta.

What are you going to be happy if you're mediocre as fuck "but no worries boys we nerfed FR so hard that it's balanced with the completely shite basic Arms builds".

Also damn near every well known theory crafter says FR AoE is very solid and does exceptionally well. I want a balanced class, not an OP one that forces every warrior into the same spec. Everyone can live in their dream world and say, well you can play anything there all good. Sorry no, that's not true. 25% more dps than other warriors specs is not something you get to say no to. Well you can, but you will be treated like Arms warriors were in HFC before your 4 pc, trink, and weapon. Which was if your not wearing the gear you don't go cuz fury is dime a dozen and easily out performs. You could take a shit fury warrior and do twice the dps as a 90% Arms warrior before the set piece bonuses cuz they increased Arms damage by 50% alone.

FR AOE is not "Very Solid", it's fucking shite outside of gimping your single target dps by blowing every cooldown you have on steroid jerking your Bladestorm once every 1 and half minutes, to do less dps than you would if you actually spec'ed for AOE with Arms, which in every case is miles behind classes that actually do well at AOE in general...

And don't talk shite about HFC, if you were a raider then you were leaving BFR with the 4 set and a very solid Arms dps, by time you had 2set T18 you could combine that with 2set T17 (4set T17 was nerfed) and do very respectible dps which was perfectly achievable in week 1, Arms was stronger just because it had cleave dps and required priority cleave and I personally used 2x T17 + 2xT18 to kill Normal Archi and then straight to 4xT18 by time we were on HC Archi.. Only fools gimping their raids for some cheese bladestorm dps on adds would go Fury, Arms was king on HFC progression, Mythic Mannoroth was the only fight you needed to be Fury.

If they don't fix FR they will nerf it and they will nerf it very hard, it will become the worst warrior spec and that is where it will stay for probably the rest of the xpac, and we that have been asking for balance will say, that's damn shame, to bad the FR FOTM grp didn't ask for balance cuz now their scrapping the bottom.

Are you doing this on purpose or are you blind? They just nerfed FR, what is it that you want them to do, nerf FR so hard that it's not the strongest Arms single target build even though it's designed in such a way? Nerf FR hard because you're too shit to play it, it's not suddenly going to make the other builds do good dps if FR stops being good, they designed it in such a way that it has incredible single target synergy, the other builds do not have good single target synergy but work reasonably well on AOE...

It's one or the other, you can get a strong single target spec in FR or you can live with what will happen if it does get nerfed harder, and that is when you get rank 1 in the world on a single target boss and you're 13th on the damage meters, 70% behind the mages, yes it happened to me.

Understand how it works, FR has good single target and it's perfectly fine for that to be the highest dps spec in the game. It wasn't even the highest spec in the game pre-nerf according to the very sims that people are blindly and stupidly taking way too serious. It's not WOTLK and Patchwerk is not a thing, almost every fight has adds and mechanic phases... But all people care about is how much dps they do when they smack a static dummy for 5mins. Drives me nuts.

[raticatearea52]

You've just taken what you think the intent/design of the spec should be and used that as an assumption that it's the same as Blizzards vision. Also, it should be noted that most of us would consider a spec with extreme downtime via RNG built into the spec as a terrible design choice for making engaging gameplay. Anything over 20 seconds wait on CS resets feels disgusting and gimps the gameplay.

The 30s CS cooldown change is only a good thing, even 30 seconds downtime is fucked.



I never understand the Warriors who say "oh we're top damage, we should be nerfed so hard that we're underwhelming, because".. Some class has to be top damage, and as amazing as it might sound it's fine for that class to be Warriors, we've been there in the past without needing nerfs, in times when class balance on single target was a thing.

But no these days Warriors are so conditioned to being not top damage that they ask for nerfs when they do get there "I don't think you nerfed us hard enough Blizz, I'm not a fan of playing this spec and I might still do good dps so could you please nerf us again, thanks".


Have some perspective here, you're talking about heavy nerfs to a class that was competing with a few other specs for number 1 single target, while requiring a legendary nobody has to do cleave and having zero sustained AOE, burst AOE only if you blow all your cooldowns gimping your single target for it. Meanwhile other specs are doing 4-5x as much dps with ease on AOE whilst being close enough on single target.

But fuck it, maybe 400% behind on AOE but we're 10% ahead on single target so nerf that shit by 30%!

It's incredible to me, i'm loving topping the meters and it feels great. You come here and read this stuff and its all people bitching about how arms needs a nerf, you gotta be kidding me. Rather than be a top dps class they would rather arms be brought down to mediocrity.

[onlinecutie]

I have 87% mastery, which is 102% increase damage. It's easy if you aim for 'Harmonious' crafted gear until you get mythic warforged with sockets.

Yup, I am at 88% mastery so 102% increase. Armory Onlinecutie-Blackwing Lair if you want to see my gear

[GT4]

S2M SPs were/are great in raids judging from beta data. Frost mages are weak, and need a buff. Sub will apparently outscale Outlaw with the current tuning of the speccs, so it's a specc that is in reality stronger than both Outlaw and Arms, but is gear gated.

So yeah..

I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me. Leaving that aside, last time I checked Sub didn't outscale Outlaw even in full 895 gear and whether it would outscale Outlaw at some theoretical point nobody can reach is pretty irrelevant for the time being.