Why do melee have so many gap closers/mobility

[Saberstrike]

Sun shines, grass grows, birds fly, bad wizards whine about melee.

nothing new under the sun. Us melee (dk main) also live in fear of rogues and ferals, so it isnt melee vs wizard problem. It's a 'rogues are op' problem.

As for demon hunters, well; they're meant to be counter to mages. And yet every wizard besides sp and lock has a way to completely shut them down if you dont play like a spastic moron.

[Rampant Rabbit]

As a Ret, DH one of the easiest specs for me to kill =) i always target Dh 1st in 2s or Random BGs, in 3s i usually dont bother with DH cuz of healer >.<

Yeah as a rogue its pretty much the same. DH literally easiest kill target, next to ele shaman. Plunder > all cooldown > bye bye.

Strange. Anyone that attacks me must be really bad then. I haven't had many (barely any) issues with Retridins or Rogues so far.

[Regalbeast]

My Enhancement Shaman says "hi and WTF is this mobility you speak of?"

[Deleted]

sub rogues teleporting every 1.5 seconds (lowered by haste) seems pretty legit. hopefully they don't change that!

[Snegovik]

Strange. Anyone that attacks me must be really bad then. I haven't had many (barely any) issues with Retridins or Rogues so far.

Because Ret's main power in PvP comes from 1 gimmick talent called Holy Wrath, and you never pick it in PvE, since it is a huge dps-lose during lvling/ dungeons/raids. I only pvp, so i lvled with that talent, but without it, Rets are not nearly as good in PvP. That talent pretty much takes out 50% of enemy health (up to 4 targets, each target losing up to 50% hp). Most Rets who are serious about farming Mythic Dungeons or even Heroics, most of the time won't pick it, making them much weaker in PvP

[Deleted]

The only way melee can sit on my ass is when i royally fuck up (aka wasting both blinks in one go), or when i'm out of cooldowns. I don't think that melee have too many gap closers. Outside of DH, WW monks and sub rogues melee are quite limited to what they can do to get you.

You're a mage, the only caster with decent mobility and a 15 second stun trinket (or 2 blinks without trinket) and if you are a fire mage then really you have no idea what its like for other casters but also for some melee classes with barely any mobility (like enhance shaman or frost dk)

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sub rogues teleporting every 1.5 seconds (lowered by haste) seems pretty legit. hopefully they don't change that!

yeah they delete burst of speed (an already stupidly broken ability) just to give them this constant TP and absurd damage, absurd defensive CDs and their capacity to reset a fight every time. When you die during their opener without your trinket, its so interesting, great gameplay,such fun

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Sun shines, grass grows, birds fly, bad wizards whine about melee.

nothing new under the sun. Us melee (dk main) also live in fear of rogues and ferals, so it isnt melee vs wizard problem. It's a 'rogues are op' problem.

As for demon hunters, well; they're meant to be counter to mages. And yet every wizard besides sp and lock has a way to completely shut them down if you dont play like a spastic moron.

So if you take out warlocks, shadow priests and also elemental shaman obviously, what else do we have then? Balance druids, no they can't handle Demon Hunters very well. So what...we are left with the typical answer: mages. Yeah ONE caster can survive them, so much balance wow

If the DH is a counter to mages, which is not true since only the mage can stand a chance against them, then what is the role of the DK, the rogue, probably the feral also? Quite a lot of melee anti casters specs in my opinion. Do we have that many anti rogues, anti Dh specs in the game? No...thats what I thought. Even hunters are no longer the anti rogue class since long time ago because they give rogues more and more easy mode tools to gain an advantage even unstealthed

DH damage is broken as well, its not only the rogues but your class as well that destroys any form of balance in the game

[Charge me Doctor]

You're a mage, the only caster with decent mobility and a 15 second stun trinket (or 2 blinks without trinket) and if you are a fire mage then really you have no idea what its like for other casters but also for some melee classes with barely any mobility (like enhance shaman or frost dk)

I also have a luxury being blown up in a 4 seconds window while my temporal shield is up, so, there it is. I also find it really funny how warlocks pick a tanking talents (dark pact and demon skin) instead of kiting talent (demonic circle) or mobility talent (burning rush) and CC talent (AoE fear/castable stun or instant heal+horror) and act like "but muh mobility".

Also, what casters outside of SP and warlocks are considered having "barely any mobility"? I will agree that warlocks and SPs lack some (while having an option to trade some of their tankiness into extra CC or mobility), but they can tank with their face, so that's kinda fair in my book.

[Khorneflake]

I also have a luxury being blown up in a 4 seconds window while my temporal shield is up, so, there it is. I also find it really funny how warlocks pick a tanking talents (dark pact and demon skin) instead of kiting talent (demonic circle) or mobility talent (burning rush) and CC talent (AoE fear/castable stun or instant heal+horror) and act like "but muh mobility".

Also, what casters outside of SP and warlocks are considered having "barely any mobility"? I will agree that warlocks and SPs lack some (while having an option to trade some of their tankiness into extra CC or mobility), but they can tank with their face, so that's kinda fair in my book.

Shadow priests can tank? Shadow priests get interrupted in VF and lose all of their damage for the next 20secs? Shadow priests have to remain in VF for 30 secs before damage becomes decent? Shadow priests have a talent which basically implies not to bother going into VF and get a 30% dmg increase yet at the same time another talent to jump into VF instantly and face the previous problem?


SP is a joke in pvp, and melee players know it.

[Deleted]

Well shadow priest cannot tank, they don't even have the 20% damage reduction anymore, they are as squishy as a mage without blink and iceblock. The shield is too weak and the self healing is not enough to sustain the damage.

But given that leather dps classes can literally slice into plate wearing classes like DK/warrior like cheese, its no surprise.

By the way, did you notice how mail sucks now? It more or less provides the same damage reduction than cloath, it only around 23% when it was 40% before

[Saberstrike]

Consider this - wizards are meant to be support classes. They're like artillery. If you let 'horses' swarm your 'cannons' then 'cannons' die. I'll agree that we need more tools to deal with 'horses' (rogues / ferals, in this case), but again -- it's a rogue / dh / feral problem, not a wizard problem or a melee problem. When was the last time you lost to a warrior? If the answer is anywhere closer than 'MoP', you're bad.

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

why do we have more gap closers and mobility?

because we put up with more shit than ranged.

[Deleted]

Consider this - wizards are meant to be support classes.

Wat? Hard time taking you serious. All your posts are basically completely baseless personal opinions on the matter that have nothing to do with the game whatsoever.

[Alexieel]

I also have a luxury being blown up in a 4 seconds window while my temporal shield is up, so, there it is. I also find it really funny how warlocks pick a tanking talents (dark pact and demon skin) instead of kiting talent (demonic circle) or mobility talent (burning rush) and CC talent (AoE fear/castable stun or instant heal+horror) and act like "but muh mobility".

Also, what casters outside of SP and warlocks are considered having "barely any mobility"? I will agree that warlocks and SPs lack some (while having an option to trade some of their tankiness into extra CC or mobility), but they can tank with their face, so that's kinda fair in my book.

Please tell me where I can trade my tankiness as SP into mobility/CC.
Only Mobility in normal talents is in the 2nd row, and the vast majority takes the mobility here (havent inspected a single one with masochism)
Only row with CC in normal talenttrees is 3. row - the AoE Stun which replaces my Fear and is dispellable before it gets any chance to stun, the CDreduction on fear to 30sec or the (not useable in PvP) Imp. Mindcontrol.
In the honortalents I only see one CC in the last row, Psyfiend, which has 5hp and gets hit by cleave/WW/Shurikenstorm/every shit which targets more then 1 (still loving my little fiend <3) and not a single mobility.
So I dont see where I can trady tankyness for CC, im stuck with 30sec fear, Psyfiend and ... well thats it.

Did a duell against a rogue today, He opens with CS, cloak, Between the eyes, killing spree. CS or Between the eyes I can counter with Insignia + Fear, one of the remaining with dispersion, and the other 2 are enough to kill me :/

[Charge me Doctor]

Please tell me where I can trade my tankiness as SP into mobility/CC.
Only Mobility in normal talents is in the 2nd row, and the vast majority takes the mobility here (havent inspected a single one with masochism)
Only row with CC in normal talenttrees is 3. row - the AoE Stun which replaces my Fear and is dispellable before it gets any chance to stun, the CDreduction on fear to 30sec or the (not useable in PvP) Imp. Mindcontrol.
In the honortalents I only see one CC in the last row, Psyfiend, which has 5hp and gets hit by cleave/WW/Shurikenstorm/every shit which targets more then 1 (still loving my little fiend <3) and not a single mobility.
So I dont see where I can trady tankyness for CC, im stuck with 30sec fear, Psyfiend and ... well thats it.

Did a duell against a rogue today, He opens with CS, cloak, Between the eyes, killing spree. CS or Between the eyes I can counter with Insignia + Fear, one of the remaining with dispersion, and the other 2 are enough to kill me :/

I was mainly referring to warlocks, but anyways.
You can spec out of mindbomb (yes, a 3 seconds stun is cool, but depending on your comp you may not need this 3 second stun because you already have 5 second one and you either reduce it to 2,5 seconds, or reduce your stun to laughable 1,5 seconds) into psychic voice for more screams (because fear is way better tool than a stun to peel melee off you. Ever feared a sprinting rogue?) And that's basically it. SPs are forced to tank (while they do take a lot of damage they have easiler time against melee on their butt thanks to 20 seconds immunity to silences and interrupts. It's basically casting circle of warlocks granted that you are kept alive somehow), they don't have much to do against that (they can recover their health very fast by the way granted 4 seconds of free casting. Put your PW:S up and with one of PvP talents all your DoTs become HoTs), so that's up to your teammates. But when not focused they recover very quickly and kinda deadly by themselves (especially with SW silence and reaper of souls, good luck having enough instants to health up from 35%) against any healers.
Duels by the way is not an indicator of anything.
So, it still dumbs down to one thing - you don't get away from melee, you do get some "breathing rooms", but you will never get away from them if not helped by others, that's why you have those windows of opportunity to do ramping up damage or healing.

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Well shadow priest cannot tank, they don't even have the 20% damage reduction anymore, they are as squishy as a mage without blink and iceblock. The shield is too weak and the self healing is not enough to sustain the damage.

But given that leather dps classes can literally slice into plate wearing classes like DK/warrior like cheese, its no surprise.

By the way, did you notice how mail sucks now? It more or less provides the same damage reduction than cloath, it only around 23% when it was 40% before

At least they can do anything while tanking instead of being interrupted 24/7 by melee train. Granted being fully HoTed up and having VE rolling on enemies you can tank quite well even without damage reduction.

[Saberstrike]

Wat? Hard time taking you serious. All your posts are basically completely baseless personal opinions on the matter that have nothing to do with the game whatsoever.

Look up 'irony'. (:

Many people in this thread are pointing out how your 'allegedly broken' casters like SP and Moonkin do amazing if you have someone (rogue / dk / even other wizards) peeling for you and letting you cast / multi dot. So in this way wizards are a support role, they're weaker in a 1v1 than a melee, but much stronger in a group that protects them and lets them do their thing.

That's how it should be, because wizards historically dominate BGs / RBGs, whereas melee should generally be stronger in 1v1 / 2v2 / general arena to keep things balanced -- with the exception of frost mage who's niche was always movement control, hence strong vs melee.

We've been through an expansion where wizards were sh*tting instant damage from 40 yards and never dying. It was called MoP. I don't think -anyone- wants MoP PvP back, though.

[Deleted]

Playing arcane mage in bg for the luls. 2 blinks + Displacement, 2 frost novas and spamable ranged slow but subt rogue have 100% uptime. lol.

[Alexieel]

I was mainly referring to warlocks, but anyways.

Yeah I guessed you are referring to qarlocks

You can spec out of mindbomb (yes, a 3 seconds stun is cool, but depending on your comp you may not need this 3 second stun because you already have 5 second one and you either reduce it to 2,5 seconds, or reduce your stun to laughable 1,5 seconds) into psychic voice for more screams (because fear is way better tool than a stun to peel melee off you. Ever feared a sprinting rogue?) And that's basically it.

Thats just what I do, because the CC from fear comes instant, and the debuff (before the stun) can be dispelles, so it wont do anything except forcing one dispel

SPs are forced to tank (while they do take a lot of damage they have easiler time against melee on their butt thanks to 20 seconds immunity to silences and interrupts.

That honortalent is only in Holy honortalents, shadowpriest have nothing like this.

(they can recover their health very fast by the way granted 4 seconds of free casting. Put your PW:S up and with one of PvP talents all your DoTs become HoTs), so that's up to your teammates. But when not focused they recover very quickly and kinda deadly by themselves (especially with SW silence and reaper of souls, good luck having enough instants to health up from 35%) against any healers.

Yep, SPriest seems indeed pretty strong if he gets the freedom to do something.

Duels by the way is not an indicator of anything.
So, it still dumbs down to one thing - you don't get away from melee, you do get some "breathing rooms", but you will never get away from them if not helped by others, that's why you have those windows of opportunity to do ramping up damage or healing.

At least they can do anything while tanking instead of being interrupted 24/7 by melee train. Granted being fully HoTed up and having VE rolling on enemies you can tank quite well even without damage reduction.

Like I said before, the talent which gives you interrupt immunity after being interrupted is only in the Holy talenttree Against meleetrain we have 2 instants, SW: P and PW:S. After building 70 Insanity with SW: P we have VB on top of that.

[willtron]

What bothers me is that melee classes deal absurd damage from range now too. A DH can shave 25% of your hp off and even interrupt your casts from range. The problem with casters right now is that being at range means nothing.

Good. Ranged classes always had an inherent advantage in this game.

[Deleted]

Good. Ranged classes always had an inherent advantage in this game.

Oh really which one? They don't have to run after targets? I though most melee classes (bar ret paladin and enhance) had many gap closer, sprints, jumps (warrior) or just death grip.

There is no advantage in being ranged if you play your melee class smart

[Deleted]

I actually prefer it the way it is now. A ranged with a melee on top of him can still do something, even if his options are limited, depending on which class they are and which class the melee is. A melee who can't get to the enemy at all has no options (with a few exceptions). E.g. as a monk who couldn't get to or away from the enemy I could channel CJL for 20k dmg over 4 seconds. In addition, if you play in a organized setting, which the game is usually balanced for, you have other people giving you room to breathe as a ranged or healer.

The other possibility would be that it is the same way when I played hunter a few years back. Melees weren't able to get to me or away from me, so unless I got swarmed or a rogue got a good opener on me, they had no chance of surviving.