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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by vaestmannaeyjar View Post
    I don't even want to do Mythics, but quests are sending me there so I have no choice. I have 836 ilvl and when I try to find a group here's what happens: "link achievement or GTFO". Right.
    Second option would be going in as a tank, as my class has a tanking spec, but I don't know the "things to do" and certainly won't learn them by not going there. I did play hardcore a loooong time ago and know reading about it is not enough.

    The only reason I want to go there is for the story, and, well, I can't. Looks like Legion was nice for two weeks only.
    What you tried to join like 1 group? I got in to many mythic groups with like 821 ilvl so you shouldnt have problems with gettin in to mythics

    - - - Updated - - -



    And if you dont know "the things to do" then go read the tacs online, how hard is that?

  2. #522
    Deleted
    Blizzard wont automate this for 2 reasons:

    1) The risk of group not winning is too high. If people played during MoP, the first time LFR Vaults came out, about 80% of the group fell to the Elegon floor vanishing. Sure,ok for first time they ever saw that mechanic(and the big move away warning), but even 8 weeks later you still had most people die out to that fall. Garalon was just a 24/7 farmer of groups on LFR and Durumu's eye beam vs LFR literally always translated into hilarity.

    Now,in heroic dungeons most of the dangerous mechanics are irrelevant, but in Mythic they will kill you. For example Cordana's Wall phase, Helya's Corrupted Bellow, Odyn's blast, Dreadlord's Guile, etc. The same people will fail a lot, get mistreated/yelled at in the group and booted at every corner, when using a Blizzard automated queue tool.

    2) It invalidates heroic mode and/or makes it all a cycle. Due to 1), Blizzard would need to nerf mythic down and in the end you would end up with Heroics again(but now with +15ilvl loot). Then Blizzard would create another mode (lets call it Mode 2 Dungeons), which again you need to form your groups for, but has lethal mechanics(repeating the process again).

    The simple thing for Blizzard is to do nothing.

  3. #523
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    here you go, it take a bit to find it. Also, I'm confident it was said in one of the Ion videos.



    I think it's worthy to note that base Mythic in Legion is comparable to some of the older Heroic dungeons many are used to in terms of difficulty. These dungeons become harder as Keystones are used to scale them and increase their challenges, but this is not a system you need to participate in if you don't want to.
    I dont think he means wod or wotlk dungeons. probably cata/bc dungeons. Some mythics are really easy like DHT, others like wardens/Valor are way more difficult. IMO

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    I don't know why you say you shouldn't see a 110 in normals. I didn't do any normals until after I hit 110 and still couldn't que for Heroics. The dungeons all scale, so I got to fight 110 mobs and the other guys fought 105 mobs. I think most of the guys in the guild were running normals for a bit after 110. If they had quest and such to get knocked out and one of the lower level tanks or healers were going to run it, we hoped in for the instant que.



    They are absolutely on the same scale as early Wrath and Pre-nerfed cata (and mainly Heroic only ZA and ZG). Wanting to make the blue post imply it's TBC heroics they are referring to is silly.
    Well you cant say they are on pair with wod heroics. did not play early wrath, nor pandaria. But saying they are on pair with all old heroics is also silly.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    Why does the game feel so anti-social?
    Oh btw why can't I queue for everything so I can progress without saying a word?


    I don't get it. Premades makes content so much more enjoyable. Adds an actual social aspect to it instead of "hi" and "thx"
    And the time to get started are most likely shorter than in a queue, for dps at least.

    Premade group = people put some sort of effort to join = tighter knit group and much more likely to communicate, and when a wipe occurs they discuss tactics instead of toxic verbal shit and disbanding. Also there's a very real risk that having Mythic+0 on LFD would make the formation of Mythic+X groups less common. Not to mention that +X starts by using a keystone in +0...

    You're only doing yourself a disservice by being stubborn and not joining groups in the Premade Group tool. Yes it can be daunting. Yes you need to be geared to get insta-invited. Be persistent if need be. But if all else fail, you make your own. Find a guildy or friend if you can't fill either healer/tank role. Maybe even be a bit nice and not only invite the highest-ilvl people that join, or you're just doing the same to others as what made you frustrated.

    The game can't be designed around the socially anxious guildless dps with below entry-level gear.
    mythic and mythic+ should never be in lfd i agree (at last without a solid gating) and that is why mythic only is bad design; every dungeon should have an heroic version in lfd te crux of the problem here isn't peoples asking for automated mythic queue it's peoples who want mythic only dungeon, this whole thread never existed if Arcway and CoS (and Kara in 7.1) had an heroic version that peoples could queue for.

    Bad design is bad design.
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  5. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    mythic and mythic+ should never be in lfd i agree (at last without a solid gating) and that is why mythic only is bad design; every dungeon should have an heroic version in lfd te crux of the problem here isn't peoples asking for automated mythic queue it's peoples who want mythic only dungeon, this whole thread never existed if Arcway and CoS (and Kara in 7.1) had an heroic version that peoples could queue for.

    Bad design is bad design.
    Well this situation can be moved over to something which we all pretty much have talked about before: LFR. If you can que up for an instance, which is easier and more facerolly then intended, does it lose value? I would say that it does, because everybody and their mother would be able to see the content, which normally would require some skill to experience.

    The same thing goes for the "We need heroic for mythic only dungeons". By having a queable heroic version, you have to reduce the amount of complexity an instance can have and also makes a worse experience. The random nature of Arcway would proberly not be made if it was queable, since it would proberly confuse some people. The same goes for Karazhan. It is a long and proberly complicated instance, which from what i have seen, will require CC at some points ( look at moroes boss fight). We already know, that people don't like to CC in LFD, so that would just bring up bad experiences.

    All in all, having an instance focused on a single difficulty allowes designers to design the instance for a high skill lvl. This is what people have asked for in a while, so i think it will be very positive to have new mythic-only dungeons. It will make better dungeons.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Well this situation can be moved over to something which we all pretty much have talked about before: LFR. If you can que up for an instance, which is easier and more facerolly then intended, does it lose value? I would say that it does, because everybody and their mother would be able to see the content, which normally would require some skill to experience.

    The same thing goes for the "We need heroic for mythic only dungeons". By having a queable heroic version, you have to reduce the amount of complexity an instance can have and also makes a worse experience. The random nature of Arcway would proberly not be made if it was queable, since it would proberly confuse some people. The same goes for Karazhan. It is a long and proberly complicated instance, which from what i have seen, will require CC at some points ( look at moroes boss fight). We already know, that people don't like to CC in LFD, so that would just bring up bad experiences.

    All in all, having an instance focused on a single difficulty allowes designers to design the instance for a high skill lvl. This is what people have asked for in a while, so i think it will be very positive to have new mythic-only dungeons. It will make better dungeons.
    and that is problem peoples care to much what other do, lfr is the prime example, blizzard give peoples 4 difficulties to chose from when it come to raid but for some reason peoples complain why?

    imho there are 2 reason:

    1) they hate when peoples can enjoy the game on different term that themselves, even if the difference in reward btw lfr and mythic is enormous
    2) lets face it lfd and lfr have saved many peoples from the stressful environment most guilds/pugs are.

    there is no real reason to not have heroic version of those dungeon beside the "git gud" mame.
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by Antilurker77 View Post
    I've literally never seen a group ask for achieves.
    ive seen a few mainly for halls of vallor and maw

  8. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    mythic and mythic+ should never be in lfd i agree (at last without a solid gating) and that is why mythic only is bad design; every dungeon should have an heroic version in lfd te crux of the problem here isn't peoples asking for automated mythic queue it's peoples who want mythic only dungeon, this whole thread never existed if Arcway and CoS (and Kara in 7.1) had an heroic version that peoples could queue for.

    Bad design is bad design.
    I think Mythic only makes perfect sense if you put the dungeon system as a whole in context. Blizzard doesn't want to add more "random queueable" dungeons that rewards better gear, or it's the same situation as when people just figured the only dungeons worth doing over and over was ZA/ZG in Cata. Instantly the 4.0 dungeons was obsolete and forgotten. Mythic dungeon weekly lockouts prevents this, and thus they can step up gear drops as more additional dungeons are released in Legion, without making previous dungeons obsolete. Even if you do the "higher tier" mythic dungeons you'll have reasons to do the rest, because they can't farm it.

    Having a heroic version of these dungeons, which mean they have no real lockout, would just recreate past mistakes. Arcway/CoS can drop better items and be part of Suramars later progression as a result of not being in the same "pool" as the regular dungeons.

    We don't want a situation where people in 7.1 are all choosing to queue for "Tier 2 dungeons" and have heroic versions of CoS/Arc/Kara. Even less to have them in one big pool and people rage as they're not put in the dungeon that rewards XX higher ilvl gear.

    The reason we didn't get additional dungeon releases during MoP and WoD was a result of what happened to ZA/ZG and the 3 Hour of Twilight dungeons in Cata. So I think the choice is pretty clear here. No additional dungeons, or mythic only to preserve all dungeons relevance. Especially now with Mythic+
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2016-09-14 at 08:34 AM.
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  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by BeerWolf View Post
    I've done plenty of mythics with pugs, and not once have I ever been asked for an achievement. They're the equivalent of Heroics from WoD for God's sake...
    Yes they are. That's why having them in LFG like heroics should be is a reasonable request.
    Especially since there are quests that send people into mythic dungeons and finding (or even creating) groups is quite a hassle.
    The way mythics are built right now they should be treated like heroics in previous expansions - including LFG.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by JacquesPierre View Post
    Because if people won't let him in their group, they will totally join his group.....
    I get literally over 20 people trying to join in the first 5min. It's so easy. I also put together and manage 6 mythic groups for my guild so if baby can't put together 1 then that's his problem

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeletroll View Post
    I find it weird if artifact/other "story" quests really send you into mythics. I've not done any heroics yet, but judging by those few normal ones i've done, i'm not really enjoying dungeons in this expansion. Hopefully rest will be better. Will be "interesting" to see how far i can go with doing only solo world quests. Hopefully LFR will be at least bearable.

    Personally i've already accepted the fact that i will miss some content by not doing mythics.
    What are you not enjoying about dungeons in this expansion?

  12. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    and that is problem peoples care to much what other do, lfr is the prime example, blizzard give peoples 4 difficulties to chose from when it come to raid but for some reason peoples complain why?

    imho there are 2 reason:

    1) they hate when peoples can enjoy the game on different term that themselves, even if the difference in reward btw lfr and mythic is enormous
    2) lets face it lfd and lfr have saved many peoples from the stressful environment most guilds/pugs are.

    there is no real reason to not have heroic version of those dungeon beside the "git gud" mame.
    People like to feel like they are rewarded for hard work and/or their skill. Higher gear has some value, but what has the highest value is actually content. When you are given content, because you worked for it or because you trained hard to able to beat it, then you feel great. That is the reason why some people are calling for more mythic-only bosses, since it is the best reward you can give hardcore players: Exclusive content.

    And that is why LFR is bad for raiding. You reduce the reward for beating the instance, because the content is not the reward, since people can que up for it and just take a rollercoaster ride through the content. That is the same with heroic/mythic-only argument. If people can beat the content without much trial, then the reward for doing it on the hard difficulty is made smaller.

    I am not advocating for all dungeons to be made mythic-only, ofcourse not. I enjoy queing up for dungeons on my tank aswell, gives me a chance to chill out, but i really believe, that some instances should only have 1 dedicated difficulty, since they will feel very rewarding.

    The best thing would be if there was some raids were with LFR and some were without, just like i believe, that it is good that some dungeons are with LFD and some are mythic-only.

    So there is very good reason to have a single difficulty on an instance. Ask any game designer about difficulty and exclusivity, and they will tell you about the good(and bad) things about it
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  13. #533
    Deleted
    No,

    No automated group finder for Mythic is a problem-SOLVER.

    In most cases players are being judged by their ilvl nowadays. You can get BiS from crafting alone at the moment, so "it being a magic-circle" doesn't apply at the moment.

    But i got to admit the OP has a bit of a point; What will happen with ilvl req. in mythics once raids come out? I foresee it being inflated...

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    I think Mythic only makes perfect sense if you put the dungeon system as a whole in context. Blizzard doesn't want to add more "random queueable" dungeons that rewards better gear, or it's the same situation as when people just figured the only dungeons worth doing over and over was ZA/ZG in Cata. Instantly the 4.0 dungeons was obsolete and forgotten. Mythic dungeon weekly lockouts prevents this, and thus they can step up gear drops as more additional dungeons are released in Legion, without making previous dungeons obsolete. Even if you do the "higher tier" mythic dungeons you'll have reasons to do the rest, because they can't farm it.

    Having a heroic version of these dungeons, which mean they have no real lockout, would just recreate past mistakes. Arcway/CoS can drop better items and be part of Suramars later progression as a result of not being in the same "pool" as the regular dungeons.

    We don't want a situation where people in 7.1 are all choosing to queue for "Tier 2 dungeons" and have heroic versions of CoS/Arc/Kara. Even less to have them in one big pool and people rage as they're not put in the dungeon that rewards XX higher ilvl gear.

    The reason we didn't get additional dungeon releases during MoP and WoD was a result of what happened to ZA/ZG and the 3 Hour of Twilight dungeons in Cata. So I think the choice is pretty clear here. No additional dungeons, or mythic only to preserve all dungeons relevance. Especially now with Mythic+
    reward has never be a problem people accept less reward if there is an heroic version, no one complain arcway and cos in heroic mode could award the same ilvl of the other available heroic, i dare to say that peoples will be happy to have an heroic kara even if it give the same ilvl of current heroic without any improvement at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    People like to feel like they are rewarded for hard work and/or their skill. Higher gear has some value, but what has the highest value is actually content. When you are given content, because you worked for it or because you trained hard to able to beat it, then you feel great. That is the reason why some people are calling for more mythic-only bosses, since it is the best reward you can give hardcore players: Exclusive content.

    And that is why LFR is bad for raiding. You reduce the reward for beating the instance, because the content is not the reward, since people can que up for it and just take a rollercoaster ride through the content. That is the same with heroic/mythic-only argument. If people can beat the content without much trial, then the reward for doing it on the hard difficulty is made smaller.

    I am not advocating for all dungeons to be made mythic-only, ofcourse not. I enjoy queing up for dungeons on my tank aswell, gives me a chance to chill out, but i really believe, that some instances should only have 1 dedicated difficulty, since they will feel very rewarding.

    The best thing would be if there was some raids were with LFR and some were without, just like i believe, that it is good that some dungeons are with LFD and some are mythic-only.

    So there is very good reason to have a single difficulty on an instance. Ask any game designer about difficulty and exclusivity, and they will tell you about the good(and bad) things about it
    so the problem here is the elitist psychology of hardcore players who don't feel rewarded (despite having actually the best reward in game) unless the content is only available to them.
    Are we really taking this motivation as valid?
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  15. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    reward has never be a problem people accept less reward if there is an heroic version, no one complain arcway and cos in heroic mode could award the same ilvl of the other available heroic, i dare to say that peoples will be happy to have an heroic kara even if it give the same ilvl of current heroic without any improvement at all.



    so the problem here is the elitist psychology of hardcore players who don't feel rewarded (despite having actually the best reward in game) unless the content is only available to them.
    Are we really taking this motivation as valid?
    Ohh i am not only talking about hardcore players, but pretty much all players except the hardcore-casual players. When something is exclusive or have a high bar for entry, it also becomes more attractive. This means, that even though you are not a hardcore player, you want to be one, since they get exclusive content. You want to be use more time on the game and become better, since the reward is very good.

    Talk to some people, who have played since Vanilla and TBC on a casual/semi-hardcore lvl and talk to them about Naxx or Sunwell. People who did not go in there, because the attunement was insane or because the first mob was harder then most raid bosses, still have great experiences with it. Why? Because it was something so exclusive, that it became awesome and people who got into those places and actually killed bosses, became legends to other people. This created high value for players, who did not even do the content. It gave people a golden carrot to become better at the game and gave a huge reward to people, who actual took the jump from casual to hardcore.

    So, exclusivity not only gives higher reward for the players who experience the content, but also gives works as a pullfactor for the players to engage themself more in the game. Experiencing some content for the first time and knowing that you are there because you worked hard, is an amazing feeling and is an experience that most Vanilla-Wrath players proberly have. But this only works if you don't experience the content beforehand in a lesser version.

    So come with some counter arguments m8. All you are doing is just talking past my arguments
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  16. #536
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    I like the current system, it promotes world travel and selective grouping. Each dungeon is on a weekly lockout so it's not as if you'd need a finder to dungeon spam a large number. As a healer I've been able to walk into groups for a dungeon of my choice almost instantly and without having to lead, so its working out well for me.

  17. #537
    My thoughts lead me to Cata as I think about why mythics aren't in the automotive que. Once you put it in the que a lot of people expect different things from it. Mostly that it be an AoE it down snooze fest. That it is their right to join and clear it unquestionably. Mythics in Legion are a lot like what heroics were at the start of Cata. Sure to a skilled player it isn't the hardest thing in the world but to a typical mouth breather it's likely the path of progression will lead them to LFR instead which honestly has equal to or better rewards and has the que. it's just not available right now. Bleeding edge progression right now is mythic 5 mans. In a week or so from this post this won't be the case so the whole que thing really won't matter. Minus of course just for the sake of complaining or reason why WoW is dead to them posts. But that's going to happen no matter what because you can't make the game for everyone combined with a game that's also entertaining to that same everyone and remains that way forever.

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Ohh i am not only talking about hardcore players, but pretty much all players except the hardcore-casual players. When something is exclusive or have a high bar for entry, it also becomes more attractive. This means, that even though you are not a hardcore player, you want to be one, since they get exclusive content. You want to be use more time on the game and become better, since the reward is very good.

    Talk to some people, who have played since Vanilla and TBC on a casual/semi-hardcore lvl and talk to them about Naxx or Sunwell. People who did not go in there, because the attunement was insane or because the first mob was harder then most raid bosses, still have great experiences with it. Why? Because it was something so exclusive, that it became awesome and people who got into those places and actually killed bosses, became legends to other people. This created high value for players, who did not even do the content. It gave people a golden carrot to become better at the game and gave a huge reward to people, who actual took the jump from casual to hardcore.

    So, exclusivity not only gives higher reward for the players who experience the content, but also gives works as a pullfactor for the players to engage themself more in the game. Experiencing some content for the first time and knowing that you are there because you worked hard, is an amazing feeling and is an experience that most Vanilla-Wrath players proberly have. But this only works if you don't experience the content beforehand in a lesser version.

    So come with some counter arguments m8. All you are doing is just talking past my arguments
    because there isn't an argument, first most peoples i know in game care actually 0 about exclusivity this is just a desire of a small minority who unfortunately happen to count among them most streamer and extremely vocal players (and some dev imho).

    Never in my life i or anyone i know (even extremely min maxer) had the necessity to bar other peoples fun to feel accomplished, imho the best thing blizzard could do is to implement a slide selector to allow each player to set it's desired difficulties, like the one you have in fallout.
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  19. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaestmannaeyjar View Post
    I don't even want to do Mythics, but quests are sending me there so I have no choice. I have 836 ilvl and when I try to find a group here's what happens: "link achievement or GTFO". Right.
    Second option would be going in as a tank, as my class has a tanking spec, but I don't know the "things to do" and certainly won't learn them by not going there. I did play hardcore a loooong time ago and know reading about it is not enough.

    The only reason I want to go there is for the story, and, well, I can't. Looks like Legion was nice for two weeks only.
    To get to the point where you're so lazy to click 3 times instead of just once and then pressing the W key until you get to the instance. Hell, not even that. You have auto run key in the game. How carefree is your life really?

    This whole post reads like poorly thought out bait. You don't know how to tank, so you think you should learn how to tank in the environment where already knowing how to do that is of crucial importance. Yes.

    Just. . wow. And you end with the most entitled piece of text i've read in weeks. "I hit a small bump in the road, so i guess i'm not going to go any further! Looks like this game was only good for two weeks only because i'm a lazy bum! Yuuup!"

    I got into mythics without any achievements, and by using the LFG tool they provide. Granted i had 843 ilvl and was a tank, but i got that by doing the reps and getting 7/8 of the 840 order hall set. I'm in favor of keeping mythics out of the LFD auto queue system, because i actually had fun with like minded people in the two mythic only dungeons in suramar, instead of rushing through everything in silence with people that have no obligation to act decently, since they can just requeue and get another group of another 4 random people they don't and will never know.

    LFG makes people polite and patient, at least in my experience.
    Last edited by Srg56; 2016-09-14 at 09:08 AM.
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  20. #540
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    Formed my own group, joined a few groups, never had to link achieves just need to make the ilvl requirements, what game are you playing OP? Seems like a completely different game there.
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