1. #761
    Regarding AoE issues , there is not bad suggestion about making DHammer baseline , sharing cd with BoJustice.
    It would alleviate some of our AoE issues and would free a talent slot for something actually meaningful, useful and fun.

  2. #762
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    Regarding AoE issues , there is not bad suggestion about making DHammer baseline , sharing cd with BoJustice.
    It would alleviate some of our AoE issues and would free a talent slot for something actually meaningful, useful and fun.
    My Suggestion would be Consecrate baseline.

    Generates 1 holy power every 2 seconds if hitting 3+ targets, and an additional holy power for each target beyond the third, up to 3 total . Templars Verdict will now become Divine Storm while standing in Consecrate and hit all targets around the Paladin for additional Holy Damage.

    This frees up a button but also allows us to AE naturally and consistently and weave in Judgments without over-capping HoPo
    Last edited by Religion-; 2016-09-13 at 11:53 PM.

  3. #763
    Deleted
    Neither of those would be good changes unless replaced by a powerful burst AoE ability in the tree.

    consecration does too little damage and is only useful if you take Divine hammer to fill in gaps.
    Also, last thing we need is to add even more complexity to the rotation.

    Divine hammer on the other hand beeing baseline would have to share the cooldown with the blade spells. If they didnt lower the cooldown of it to match them we would take a single target nerf with the longer CD on BoW/BoV. But otherwise it wouldn't hurt anything. Especially if replaced with a good burst AoE in the talent tree.



    Consecration as a 1M CD AoE with apropriate damage is the change i think would be good for us.

    My point beeing, both of those abilities are sustained AoE abilities and therefore with limited use.
    Last edited by mmoc80be7224cc; 2016-09-14 at 12:19 AM.

  4. #764
    I think we only really need two changes to our AoE, and these are more of quality of life changes.

    1. Make the cleave range on Zeal not idiotic. Shit has to be really stacked for Zeal to hit multiple targets, and that's just annoying.

    2. Too much of our AoE comes from our artifact. Righteous Blade 3/3, Echo of the Highlord and Divine Tempest together are ~43% extra damage to DS and DT increases the overall area you can hit significantly. I think that's just a bit overboard. Like, our AoE is actually good. Maybe not Strike of the Memelord or Lol Beam levels of good, but our AoE kicks ass once we have traits. The problem is we seem like shit because we need like 29 points before we're good. Keep in mind, once you have everything, DS hits so hard it's a dps increase over TV on 2 targets.

  5. #765
    I had a look through and couldn't see mention of this (sorry if I missed it )

    What is our plan with DP procs if we have Echo of the Highlord? Does the extra 10% mimic bring it in line/above using JV on the procs?

  6. #766
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Anolith View Post
    I had a look through and couldn't see mention of this (sorry if I missed it )

    What is our plan with DP procs if we have Echo of the Highlord? Does the extra 10% mimic bring it in line/above using JV on the procs?
    JV still hits harder than TV+Echo, at least for me. I don't have the TV traits on the artifact though.

  7. #767
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Religion- View Post
    My Suggestion would be Consecrate baseline.

    Generates 1 holy power every 2 seconds if hitting 3+ targets, and an additional holy power for each target beyond the third, up to 3 total . Templars Verdict will now become Divine Storm while standing in Consecrate and hit all targets around the Paladin for additional Holy Damage.

    This frees up a button but also allows us to AE naturally and consistently and weave in Judgments without over-capping HoPo
    Cons baseline and talented option maybe buffed in damage plus doing like 50% of damage on first tick / or follow paladin around (like wod glyphed version for prots).
    Would give an actual meaning to the talent without overcomplicated tooltips. Although what u proposed would make rets supersexy in terms of 4-6 enemies aoe.

    - - - Updated - - -

    On a sidenote :
    I still dont see sims concerning static trinkets that drop from wq 840 ilvl version 1k str/900k secondary. Would love to see how these relate to the dungeon ones and get when to replace them for proccs etc.

  8. #768
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyons View Post
    JV still hits harder than TV+Echo, at least for me. I don't have the TV traits on the artifact though.
    I do believe it does once we got both. If not, the difference is very small.

    The spec touted to be the best single target doesn't use DP or JV though.

  9. #769
    Quote Originally Posted by Anolith View Post
    I had a look through and couldn't see mention of this (sorry if I missed it )

    What is our plan with DP procs if we have Echo of the Highlord? Does the extra 10% mimic bring it in line/above using JV on the procs?
    For me TV does about the same damage with 3/3 Might of the Templar and no Echo of the Highlord.

    Question for my fellow paladins though; does Echo proc on hit effects like Brittle?

    - - - Updated - - -

    So I've been debating if I should take the time to post this, but I'm curious, does anyone have a BiS list for Emerald Nightmare? The pre-EN gearing phase is almost over, and it worries me a bit that I've seen no serious discussion about the gear we should be chasing over the next 4 months. I could maybe figure this out on my own given time, but it'd be a lot faster and easier with help.

    What I've got figured out so far, is that there's 5 items that are obviously BiS. Assuming here that everything is Titanforged to 895 with a socket. The Jeweled Signet of Melandrus. Crit/haste ring, well itemized, 10% increased damage to auto attacks. That 10% AA damage is about .6-.7% of my damage. It's free damage from one of the worst slots. I'll eat my shoes if this isn't BiS. Whisper of the Nathrezim and Liadrin's Fury Unleashed seem like obvious choices for our two legendaries as they're the only ones that give dps with their passives. Obviously I don't have a legendary, because bad luck protection is a lie, but still, they're BiS.

    After these 5 it gets a bit hazier. I know Faulty Countermeasures is BiS pre raid, but I have no idea how it compares to EN trinkets. Probably still worth using I'd imagine, as it's quite insane for us. After that, Nightmare Egg Shell maybe for second trinket slot? For relics I'd assume we want at least one Wrath of the Ashbringer to equalize Crusade's duration with Faulty Countermeasures. After that, not sure how good more WotA is compared to one of the other minor traits like Might of the Templar. I just don't know.

    After that... *shrugs*

  10. #770
    Oh shit those ret changes. Crusade looks so good now. Definitely a nice change. The others are good too but taking crusade after this change changes the way you play during crusade. Looks really nice.

    Here it is:
    Increases your damage and haste by 3.5% for 20 sec. Each Holy Power spent during Crusade increases damage and haste by an additional 3.5%. Maximum 15 stacks. Profoundly empowers your Judgment for 20 sec. While empowered, Judgment generates 1 Holy Power, has a 75% reduced cooldown, and increases your damage and healing by 3%, stacking up to 15 times. Retribution Paladin - Level 100 Talent. Instant. 20 s

    Bolded part is the change.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2016-09-14 at 09:39 PM.

  11. #771
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    Oh shit those ret changes. Crusade looks so good now. Definitely a nice change. The others are good too but taking crusade after this change changes the way you play during crusade. Looks really nice.

    Here it is:
    Increases your damage and haste by 3.5% for 20 sec. Each Holy Power spent during Crusade increases damage and haste by an additional 3.5%. Maximum 15 stacks. Profoundly empowers your Judgment for 20 sec. While empowered, Judgment generates 1 Holy Power, has a 75% reduced cooldown, and increases your damage and healing by 3%, stacking up to 15 times. Retribution Paladin - Level 100 Talent. Instant. 20 s

    Bolded part is the change.
    is this real life, or it is just fantasy???

  12. #772
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    If that changes stays. Also if you enjoyed Blade of Wrath, it's being turned into Art of War but as a talent. -_-


    As for the Crusade change...well I'm not necessarily fond of it but I cannot deny it's power. This is assuming it all stays through the PTR proccess. I like we are getting attention, don't get me wrong but I'm not necessarily on board with these said changes.
    Last edited by Aeluron Lightsong; 2016-09-14 at 09:49 PM.
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  13. #773
    Deleted
    Hey seal of light got changed to a 1HP spender for 20%/20 seconds. It's still crap! Good try though. Maybe it can be marginally useful? But i still don't see myself taking it over the other 2.

  14. #774
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    Oh shit those ret changes. Crusade looks so good now. Definitely a nice change. The others are good too but taking crusade after this change changes the way you play during crusade. Looks really nice.

    Here it is:
    Increases your damage and haste by 3.5% for 20 sec. Each Holy Power spent during Crusade increases damage and haste by an additional 3.5%. Maximum 15 stacks. Profoundly empowers your Judgment for 20 sec. While empowered, Judgment generates 1 Holy Power, has a 75% reduced cooldown, and increases your damage and healing by 3%, stacking up to 15 times. Retribution Paladin - Level 100 Talent. Instant. 20 s

    Bolded part is the change.
    It looks like it's complete garbage compared to the current crusade, as it will more than likely still replace avenging wrath and the 20s cooldown is also not going to happen.

    So basically it's .5% less damage per stack while stacking much slower than current crusade due to being tied to spamming judgment.

    Edit, also rip the haste part of crusade.

  15. #775
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    That Crusade change is fucking huge. Like unbelievably, undeniably huge.

    Crusade is now a gargantuan AoE boost with Greater Judgement + 75% reduced CD, and its got a side plate of HoPo generation and stacking %DPS buff on top of it just for kicks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by snackfeat View Post
    It looks like it's complete garbage compared to the current crusade, as it will more than likely still replace avenging wrath and the 20s cooldown is also not going to happen.

    So basically it's .5% less damage per stack while stacking much slower than current crusade due to being tied to spamming judgment.
    It's actually much stronger than current Crusade, which is already strong. Sure, it's linked to Judgement spamming, but who cares when Judgement is hitting AoE bombs like a stank truck and generating HoPo at the same time? Sure, it's 0.5% less damage per stack, but Judgement hits a shitload harder than the CS you'd be using as a generator instead so it's definitely a net gain.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  16. #776
    I really dislike the Crusade redesign. If anything should be redesigned it's Holy Wrath. Keep Holy Wrath as a pvp talent, give us super judgment as a 100 talent in place of Holy Wrath.

    Copy/paste from the official forums.

    "From the mmo-champion front page.

    Old tooltip. Crusade Increases your damage and haste by 3.5% for 20 sec. Each Holy Power spent during Crusade increases damage and haste by an additional 3.5%. Maximum 15 stacks.

    New tooltip. Profoundly empowers your Judgment for 20 sec. While empowered, Judgment generates 1 Holy Power, has a 75% reduced cooldown, and increases your damage and healing by 3%, stacking up to 15 times. Retribution Paladin - Level 100 Talent. Instant. 20 sec cooldown.

    They might be redesigning Crusade, and I am really not okay with that. I understand these are just datamined changes, and as such they may not be real. That being said, Crusade is the thing I currently enjoy most about ret, and I do not want it to go away.

    If a level 100 talent should be redesigned, it is Holy Wrath. It has no place in high end pve content, as it requires you to take intentional damage to maximize its output. People far more eloquent than myself have complained about the design of Holy Wrath many times before. If you want to add your super judgment cooldown thingy to the game, give it to us in place of Holy Wrath, not Crusade. If this is an unacceptable change for pvp, then add Holy Wrath to the pvp talents; I'm sure there's some fat that could be trimmed there.

    Crusade is one of the things about ret that is truly not broken. We have many other issues that could be addressed that don't involve removing the most fun and powerful talent in the spec. For example, make the cleave range on Zeal a bit higher so mobs don't have to one character model stacked for it to hit them. Make our AoE damage competitive before having 28 traits. Make judgment a buff on us instead of a debuff on the enemy, so that mastery is not quite as much of a dead stat. Make Consecration and Execution Sentence not objectively worse than Final Verdict in all situations. If you want to make ret more fun and desirable, start with those and see how we are after that. If those changes would make us OP, (very hard to believe in a world with Outlaw Rogues, Strike of the Windlord and Eye Beam) then nerf us in other areas. Please don't butcher Crusade."

  17. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    That Crusade change is fucking huge. Like unbelievably, undeniably huge.

    Crusade is now a gargantuan AoE boost with Greater Judgement + 75% reduced CD, and its got a side plate of HoPo generation and stacking %DPS buff on top of it just for kicks.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's actually much stronger than current Crusade, which is already strong. Sure, it's linked to Judgement spamming, but who cares when Judgement is hitting AoE bombs like a stank truck and generating HoPo at the same time? Sure, it's 0.5% less damage per stack, but Judgement hits a shitload harder than the CS you'd be using as a generator instead so it's definitely a net gain.
    Sure, it's much stronger than current crusade, if you don't care about the 52% haste it gives, as well as stacking way faster by getting 3 stacks at a time instead of 1.

    Not to mention that in raids you more often than not don't give a shit about aoe, it really doesn't matter that judgment is hitting aoe.

  18. #778
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snackfeat View Post
    Sure, it's much stronger than current crusade, if you don't care about the 52% haste it gives, as well as stacking way faster by getting 3 stacks at a time instead of 1.

    Not to mention that in raids you more often than not don't give a shit about aoe, it really doesn't matter that judgment is hitting aoe.
    It does matter that Judgement is hitting AoE, because barely any fights in modern raids are single target tank and spanks. You're nearly always cleaving, and our cleave is currently weak.

    Of course, 52% Haste is nice for the period of time you get to have it with current Crusade, but its not worth sacrificing the increased damage that the new CD will have to give via Empowered Judgement spam. Unless of course this talent is just meant to somehow be a secret nerf, with the end goal of making us less viable due to 'Class Fantasy'.
    Last edited by jackofwind; 2016-09-14 at 10:27 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  19. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    It does matter that Judgement is hitting AoE, because barely any fights in modern raids are single target tank and spanks. You're nearly always cleaving, and our cleave is currently weak.

    Of course, 52% Haste is nice for the period of time you get to have it with current Crusade, but its not worth sacrificing the increased damage that the new CD will have to give via Empowered Judgement spam. Unless of course this talent is just meant to somehow be a secret nerf, with the end goal of making us less viable due to 'Class Fantasy'.
    Now wouldn't it be cool if that was an actual choice instead of us having 2 level 100 talents and a meme? Holy Wrath is the issue, not Crusade.
    Last edited by OrcsRLame; 2016-09-14 at 10:31 PM.

  20. #780
    Quote Originally Posted by snackfeat View Post
    Sure, it's much stronger than current crusade, if you don't care about the 52% haste it gives, as well as stacking way faster by getting 3 stacks at a time instead of 1.

    Not to mention that in raids you more often than not don't give a shit about aoe, it really doesn't matter that judgment is hitting aoe.
    Lol wtf? That has to be the most ridiculous thing I've heard so far.

    You absolutely do care about AoE because almost every single fight since MoP has been some sort of cleave/AoE add fight. Normally we only get 2 pure ST boss fights, maybe 1. That change is a lot stronger than current crusade because it raises our cleave potential pretty high, which is really necessary when it comes down to raids nowadays.

    Also, you have no idea if the 20 seconds will stay or not. Don't analyze the talent like that may change because we have no idea if it will or won't. And yes it'll most likely still replace AW. That, or its a passive thing baked into AW but that would be way too strong so I'd assume the former.

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