WW vs Havoc vs Outlaw

[Gerege]

Hi guys, I can't decide which between WW or Havoc or Outlaw rogue to main in Legion. I already have Havoc DH at lvl 110 ilvl 820 & Monk at lvl 100 and rogue at lvl 100.

Im seeing very good results from internet, forums and youtube but can't decide which to stick to.

My main concerns:

- Which one performs best dps in Single Target (Lets just say they both have similar ilvl, BiS gear and skill) & AoE
- Which of this classes have better tanking in legion?

I will be casual PvE (Heroic, Mythic and Mythic+ dungeons and normal or heroic raiding) and some ocassional PvP.

Please advise. Thanks

[Deleted]

Monk is better than DH imo. The tank and dd spec are similiar but you also get a good heal spec.

Outlaw is better on single target but can't compete with cleave of DH/WW in 5man.

[nightmann]

Monk is in a very good place because we don't scale as well as dh and rogue and have strong abilities early in our artifact (sotw, fists). As other classes start filling in their artifact we'll realize that we're not going to be top 5. Second, rogue and dh scale with weapon damage, we dont, most of our dps comes from hit combo and mastery, therefore our ap raw scaling is gimped to compensate. Monk will be outpaced by tier 2. DH is popular and it might be hard to get a raid spot. Go with rogue, they're top dps anyway and scale very well with gear.

[amythist]

Monk is in a very good place because we don't scale as well as dh and rogue and have strong abilities early in our artifact (sotw, fists). As other classes start filling in their artifact we'll realize that we're not going to be top 5. Second, rogue and dh scale with weapon damage, we dont, most of our dps comes from hit combo and mastery, therefore our ap raw scaling is gimped to compensate. Monk will be outpaced by tier 2. DH is popular and it might be hard to get a raid spot. Go with rogue, they're top dps anyway and scale very well with gear.

that seems to be a recurring issue with WW, they start out strong early in the expansion but as it goes on they fall further and further down the meters because they don't scale compared to other classes/specs, I was hoping that they finally learned for legion but as of yet it doesn't really look like it

[Babylonius]

Monk is in a very good place because we don't scale as well as dh and rogue and have strong abilities early in our artifact (sotw, fists). As other classes start filling in their artifact we'll realize that we're not going to be top 5. Second, rogue and dh scale with weapon damage, we dont, most of our dps comes from hit combo and mastery, therefore our ap raw scaling is gimped to compensate. Monk will be outpaced by tier 2. DH is popular and it might be hard to get a raid spot. Go with rogue, they're top dps anyway and scale very well with gear.

I'm confused as to what you're basing your scaling on. Both DH and Rogues use normalized formulas, not pure WD, and WD isn't the only thing that scales up. I'm not sure what you're definition of "outpaced" is but as it stands there's no reason to believe that WW wont remain competitive for the foreseeable future. Right now, before any tuning happens, Rogues and DH are more likely to be nerfed than WW, so everything you said could change by the beginning of next week, not sure how you can prognosticate months down the road.

that seems to be a recurring issue with WW, they start out strong early in the expansion but as it goes on they fall further and further down the meters because they don't scale compared to other classes/specs, I was hoping that they finally learned for legion but as of yet it doesn't really look like it

In Mists WW got progressively stronger as the expansion went on. In Warlords WW started out OP and was nerfed accordingly, then climbed back into being one of the strongest progression melee specs. The only "scaling" issue with WW in Warlords was the Legendary ring, which wasnt scaling at all, it was lack of burst.

[nightmann]

that seems to be a recurring issue with WW, they start out strong early in the expansion but as it goes on they fall further and further down the meters because they don't scale compared to other classes/specs, I was hoping that they finally learned for legion but as of yet it doesn't really look like it

It's a matter of class representation i think. Look at ele shaman in WoD. They cried in the beta, they cried day 1, they cried all through the expansion and blizz did absolute nothing except make the spec even worse. Blizz promised fixes in the future when highmaul hit, and they never came. Now look at a popular class like Warlock. Locks cried week 1 of legion, and by week 3 there's already a bandaid in place, with big fixes to come. Monks are not a popularly represented class, so like ele shamans, if shit gets rough, best you can do is reroll. Blizz simply doesn't care. Oh but by god don't dare out dps the popular classes, because blizz is more than happy to nerf us when we're doing well.

Rogues and DH are more likely to be nerfed than WW, so everything you said could change by the beginning of next week, not sure how you can prognosticate months down the road.

Look at the patch notes on front page for 7.1; do you see any rogue or dh nerfs? No? Oh what's that, there's already a nerf for ww monks in the notes? We're the only dps getting a nerf so far? yeah, exactly...

[Babylonius]

Look at the patch notes on front page for 7.1; do you see any rogue or dh nerfs? No? Oh what's that, there's already a nerf for ww monks in the notes? We're the only dps getting a nerf so far? yeah, exactly...

What nerfs? You mean the tooltip corrections for things that happened months ago? I'm assuming you mean Transfer the Power, which was 5% in the tooltip but 1% in reality since Alpha. It was buffed to 3% shortly before 7.0, which was a huge buff.

Touch of Death has been 50% modified by Mastery for months.

The only actual change to WW was a 50% buff to our tier bonus.

[nightmann]

I see nothing about it being a tool tip correction in the notes, which they always specify. But I'll take your word for it, if anyone here would know it would be you. That's a relief at least.

[Babylonius]

I see nothing about it being a tool tip correction in the notes, which they always specify. But I'll take your word for it, if anyone here would know it would be you. That's a relief at least.

Yeah, thats all stuff that happened awhile back. It does say on the front page they may be tooltip changes, just happens that these are.

Edit: right after I checked, they linked this on the front page: https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/sta...99354520596480

No class tuning has been done in Patch 7.1 yet. Datamined "changes" from the PTR at this point are simply tooltip corrections.

[archkiller]

Go with dh and rogue. They are always in demand for mythic raid with their mechanic cheesing ability. You have to be very lucky to see a WW in mythic raid with their zero utility.

[Devolution]

Go with dh and rogue. They are always in demand for mythic raid with their mechanic cheesing ability. You have to be very lucky to see a WW in mythic raid with their zero utility.

Yea, providing the entire raid with 25% permanent move speed is zero utility.

[derpx]

I'd recommend a rogue for raiding as there aren't many rogues so the demand is high for them. DHs are strong, better and more consistent in terms of DPS than rogues but there are just too many of them that I doubt you can find a spot in raiding. Also, rogues defensive abilities makes them a better class for raiding ( like almost ignoring AOE boss damage, cloak of shadow and so on). Now why not WW? simply nothing WW can offer that no other class doesn't ( I don't consider 10% movement speed as something big or important, maybe with the legendary it's worth it but good luck on that), sadly I realized this too late and I'm on my way to rerolling after EN raid ( giving that I got my legendary Katsuo's Eclipse)

[archkiller]

Yea, providing the entire raid with 25% permanent move speed is zero utility.

25% ms for only 10yards is entire raid?

And why would raid leader waste a limited melee spot on a WW just for a 10 yard 25% ms when the Druid's on demand 60% Stampeding Roar and shaman's 60% wind rush totem are more useful, unless there is a boss encounter where there is permanent pushback mechanic.

[Thra]

Yea, providing the entire raid with 25% permanent move speed is zero utility.

Isn't it 10% and now has a 10yd radius?

We do have utility, but it takes skill. Tiger's Lust has saved my DK tank that many times he demands a monk in the raid. I feel monk is a well rounded class, all three spec's can be played to the level you're at quite well.

Rogues have ups and downs but are overall one of the most fun classes to play IMO. I used to main rogue, now it's monk

DH, you can't turn a corner without running into 6 of them. No thanks

[Baerong]

Since you stated that you will do casual PvE, I'd recommend playing the class/spec you enjoy most and wouldn't worry too much about numbers.

[Deleted]

Isn't it 10% and now has a 10yd radius?

It's 10%, and 25% with a specific legendary. Seeing how rare legendaries are - we have a single one in our whole guild, a warrior with the speed/haste on CC ring, even with usually 50+ people online in the evening - I doubt many WWs will get that specific legendary during the whole addon.

@ topic: For the content you speak of, any of those specs are viable. Play what you enjoy most.


[e]

In Mists WW got progressively stronger as the expansion went on. In Warlords WW started out OP and was nerfed accordingly, then climbed back into being one of the strongest progression melee specs. The only "scaling" issue with WW in Warlords was the Legendary ring, which wasnt scaling at all, it was lack of burst.

Just to add here: In Mists it was more of a rollercoaster. The class has undergone many changes. We didn't get progressively stronger in comparison to other classes. E.g. the peak was after ToT progress with high-end gear and RoRo, with which we were OP. We were still strong for many bosses in SoO, but nowhere near the crazyness with this trinket.

[Juliansfist]

Personally I don't think the WW roller-coaster has only just ended and Blizzard have finally got WW in a stable place. Actually no our talents still need s lot of work so they aren't so dominated in most tiers. Honestly our talent choice atm feels like CB vs CW, EE vs PS and our defensive tier. All the other tiers have a single effective choice.

[Thra]

Personally I don't think the WW roller-coaster has only just ended and Blizzard have finally got WW in a stable place. Actually no our talents still need s lot of work so they aren't so dominated in most tiers. Honestly our talent choice atm feels like CB vs CW, EE vs PS and our defensive tier. All the other tiers have a single effective choice.

Absolutely. I was just saying this to a mate last night, I am enjoying my spriest more than my WW purely because there are more avenue's to build my character. Sure WW is 5x stronger than spriest atm but i don't really have much choice in talents.

[archkiller]

There is zero reason to bring a ww or dh over a rogue after the nerf, unless the raid leader is a fool.

[nightmann]

There is zero reason to bring a ww or dh over a rogue after the nerf, unless the raid leader is a fool.

A) that's silly for obvious reasons. B) mythic + is going to drop better gear anyway, and you can run that endlessly to grind for top gear, and guess what class is going to be very desirable for that?