No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[quras]

The thing about mazes and terrain quickly becoming boring is a thing that I preach for years now, but some people are too stubborn to recognize that. The same thing goes for flying to skip such areas which are not relevant for you anymore.

Just today, one world quest had this absurd path where I had to ride a wide curve around an obstacle to get to my quest area. I took much more time traveling to the quest than actually doing the quest - this taking into account that the rare elite in question resetted 3 times in-fight after reaching about 10% or less of his health, so the fight was prolongued in an unnessesary way.

How can people think that this is of some kind of gameplay value? Travelling in the Lord of the Rings books / movies is of importance, because the characters do this exactly ONCE. They don't go every day to Mordor, to get rid of the ring. It's us who are stuck in some kind of a Groundhog's Day nightmare.

Dead on. I'm not sure what it's so hard for some to see the difference but they can't. They seem fine with the mundane but I dislike it. Travel just isn't an area that needs more time added to it or hurdles come max level. Players just don't need it. Let them fly and get them to where they want to go faster. You want to kill off some time, make the quests more interesting or take longer.

I'm not a big advocate to teleporting everywhere (Though I'm also not against taking out flight paths adding in teleporting mage portals at each area - Flying once you get there at max level) but flying at max level has always been awesome in wow ever since we first got it. Made us realize just how bad travel was and is without flying.

So there is just no way I can advocate a wow that doesn't have flying in once you reach max level.

[Maneo]

A little over two weeks in, and as expected I really enjoyed the leveling content. Have one max level, a 105, and a 103, took me a bit to figure out a main w/how much the artifact impacts the playstyle.

The whistle makes open world travel tolerable between world quests, but is quickly losing its novelty. If I have a world quest in certain areas like the city of Suramar it is likely I just won't do it due to travel being a PITA.

I spend more time running around w/my map open then paying attention to the world.

Sub is up at the end of the month, it is unlikely I will re up it, as I find the irritation of travel is beginning to exceed the fun of the content. Maybe 7.1 will bring flight and I will stick around.

[Connll]

The 7.1 PTR notes are already in the main page of MMO-Champion., but I do not see anything about Patch finder there:

Did I miss it or...?

[Mafic]

A little over two weeks in, and as expected I really enjoyed the leveling content. Have one max level, a 105, and a 103, took me a bit to figure out a main w/how much the artifact impacts the playstyle.

The whistle makes open world travel tolerable between world quests, but is quickly losing its novelty. If I have a world quest in certain areas like the city of Suramar it is likely I just won't do it due to travel being a PITA.

I spend more time running around w/my map open then paying attention to the world.

Sub is up at the end of the month, it is unlikely I will re up it, as I find the irritation of travel is beginning to exceed the fun of the content. Maybe 7.1 will bring flight and I will stick around.

I do wonder how many players will be able to finish all of part 1 legion patch finder before the 30 days are up. It doesn't seem likely at this point.

This is why I do not understand people telling me I miss out on the expansion when being patient and seeing how all this unfolds is the smartest thing to do IMVHO.

[Eapoe]

I needed to show the difference and why it was different. I accomplished that. Swimming in a water environment and flying over the ground while similar are not the same.




Why would you put them everywhere? That would be even worse design that hindering flying as they are now. It's something that just doesn't need to be. Put in those encounters in areas you want to make flying a burden at max level. Scatter them around and make it interesting where the quests and content need it. There is no corridor in the open world with flying, just areas of interest. While going from "A" to "Z" you can stop at "B" thru "Y". There is no corridor out in the open world so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.

What you have with ground mounts is a rat maze corridor that loses it entertainment value rather quickly as you try to get somewhere. Come max level, most are ready to get on with the grind of the end game and not worry so much about the scenery they have seen hundreds of times or the useless mobs getting to where they want to go. Anti flying mechanics aside, ground mounts made this game into a corridor, not flying at max level.

There is no issue with those anti-flying mechanics and they worked for the areas they were in. You had to pay attention and keep on your toes and they made questing areas interesting and flying was still in game allowing you to get past areas that are no longer interesting.

So other than some loosely related Vash'jir to flying which really isn't the same, flying has and always will be a better choice to have in game when you get to max level than what blizzard has been doing.

You showed nothing about them being different other than a targeting issue.
You ask why put them everywhere and yet that is the type of design some people are looking for more "interesting" game mechanics involving flight.
Swimming and flight are not the same, but the way it is implemented in game (and specifically Vash) involving the Z axis they equate the same in the game.
Getting past areas in the game that are no longer interesting still exist in the forms of hearthstones, flight paths, the whistle (for Legion), and some toys that offer portals to certain zones. You don't need flight to do that.
Unlimited flight with no repercussions (such as the people looking for Vash styled zones) brings us back full circle to the debate which has been going on since page 1. Flight is 100% a convenience in the game and will always be the path of least resistance. Your whole back and forth with me has proved the whole issue of flight at this point. I bring up 1 zone that involves "interesting" game mechanics that shows what people ask for, to which you then go out of your way to say it's not a problem, and that the issue relies on targeting issues. You then went on to try and spin the problem to me by saying that I was the one saying those "interesting" mechanics should be in game, when I was arguing against them and using Vash as the reasoning. You then finalized the point by saying that flight will "always be the better choice to have in game than what Blizzard is doing," to which everyone here knows that's an opinion of what you (and others) feel should be in game, and does not show in any factual way HOW it's better.

[Mafic]

Dead on. I'm not sure what it's so hard for some to see the difference but they can't. They seem fine with the mundane but I dislike it. Travel just isn't an area that needs more time added to it or hurdles come max level. Players just don't need it. Let them fly and get them to where they want to go faster. You want to kill off some time, make the quests more interesting or take longer.

I'm not a big advocate to teleporting everywhere (Though I'm also not against taking out flight paths adding in teleporting mage portals at each area - Flying once you get there at max level) but flying at max level has always been awesome in wow ever since we first got it. Made us realize just how bad travel was and is without flying.

So there is just no way I can advocate a wow that doesn't have flying in once you reach max level.

Teleports are warranted at this point if they continue to insist on the rat maze design that is WoW's open world. This is why they use them for Suramar, flight whistle, and the extra hearth. Even Blizz knows their design of ground and pound alone is weak.

But the gimmicks and ports can't hide the fact restricting player freedom promotes burnout and deters a lot of players from even playing the expansion and sitting on the sidelines.

[quras]

You showed nothing about them being different other than a targeting issue.

In other words, I showed a difference. Targetting being one and general combat being another. Most didn't seem to like the 3D combat of underwater. Most never has even way back with malogos. It wasn't the travel that people hated but how things interacted underwater. You do not get the same effect when flying over ground or when you are in combat.

You ask why put them everywhere and yet that is the type of design some people are looking for more "interesting" game mechanics involving flight.

I'd wager most never expected interesting anti-air flying encounters to be everywhere. Using them specifically like we have seen in Ogri'la and sketiis. they don't need to be everywhere but used as a means to limit flying while not removing flying from the game for so long. Still letting gamers travel past content they have outleveled and to content that is more relevant but making sure they keep on their toes.

Swimming and flight are not the same, but the way it is implemented in game (and specifically Vash) involving the Z axis they equate the same in the game.

No they are not for the reason I mentioned above. The travel is similar similar but that alone isn't reason to remove flying over the ground as blizzard has come max level. The way Vash'jir worked it wasn't the travel disliked but how encounters played out.

Getting past areas in the game that are no longer interesting still exist in the forms of hearthstones, flight paths, the whistle (for Legion), and some toys that offer portals to certain zones. You don't need flight to do that.

and yet flight is still better, getting players to where they want to go faster at max level. Also allowing them to stop at any destination on the way from "A" to "Z". Should they choose to stop at "B" through "Y" they can. Thats a much better design than teleports, AFK flight paths that encourage you to do something else toher than play wow or gimmicky toys that mimic flying in a piss poor attempt to placate gamers that want flying.

You don't need flight to get past those areas but damn it's a much better and entertaining option for the gamer.

Unlimited flight with no repercussions (such as the people looking for Vash styled zones) brings us back full circle to the debate which has been going on since page 1. Flight is 100% a convenience in the game and will always be the path of least resistance. Your whole back and forth with me has proved the whole issue of flight at this point. I bring up 1 zone that involves "interesting" game mechanics that shows what people ask for, to which you then go out of your way to say it's not a problem, and that the issue relies on targeting issues. You then went on to try and spin the problem to me by saying that I was the one saying those "interesting" mechanics should be in game, when I was arguing against them and using Vash as the reasoning. You then finalized the point by saying that flight will "always be the better choice to have in game than what Blizzard is doing," to which everyone here knows that's an opinion of what you (and others) feel should be in game, and does not show in any factual way HOW it's better.

Unlimited flight at max level has never caused a problem for this game and yes, you have been told and shown the resons for that line of thinking since page one. Over and over. Looking back at flights implemention this game could have not done as well back then if flight was so detrimental to the game or the players. That goes double when the game designers also put in the effort to design the game with flight at max level in mind.

Flight is a convenience. Just like most faster travel. I'm not anywhere near an advocate of going back to the travel of vanilla because that sucked and flight being damn near the most requested feature ever (next to maybe duel spec and the dance studio) convenience is a good thing and when it comes to flight, it should not be held back the way it is. Travel has evolved in this game for the better because it is better to give players freedom to travel where they want as well as get them their in a manner that doesn't suck at max level like it does now. There is no AFK flgiht path or gimmicky toy that fixes the that problem like flight fixes it.

We brought up a zone with similar mechanics to travel but not combat. Thats not what gamers asked for and never would have since what her had back with Malygos. 3D combat isn't good. 3D travel however is Awesome. There is a major difference there. there is no way you don't understand that.

you can argue against those interesting mechanics all you want. It's clear we will not see eye to eye on it. But as I compare the times we had flight and the times we do not. This game was healthier back then. It was healthier for a number of reasons (design, better story) and flight was just one of them.

Of course its my option that flight is a better option than what we are getting. whos opinion did you think I was giving? However, I did give you some reasons as to why it was better. Be it convenience of travel at max level past areas that are no longer interesting. Getting players to where they want faster than slower. Not having to deal with the same shitty rat maze over and over through the corridors ground mounts enforce you to do again and again and through the garbage mobs you no longer need. Thats just off the top of my head as I know others have listed more.

Flight made wow a better game when you got to max level. It helped remove some of the mundane crap you had to deal with leveling up and opened the world up in way all that other gimmicky crap cannot (even teleports). I just hate we can't see eye to eye on it because after playing wow with flight and playing it without as blizzard is doing now. I cannot support wow till it's in game and obtainable. If that takes to long, I got other ways to spend my money.

(Word of caution: I did this on a phone so there could be some typos. :P )

[Glorious Leader]

Teleports are warranted at this point if they continue to insist on the rat maze design that is WoW's open world. This is why they use them for Suramar, flight whistle, and the extra hearth. Even Blizz knows their design of ground and pound alone is weak.

But the gimmicks and ports can't hide the fact restricting player freedom promotes burnout and deters a lot of players from even playing the expansion and sitting on the sidelines.

It's frustrating for a couple reasons. It's SOOOOO EASY to get stuck. Like it's happened to me at least 2 or 3 times now. You'll be tracking down some herb and it's not clear where on the map it is so you jump around and you find yourself stuck in some nook behind a building or somehow beneath a tree limb and you just can't move you have to hearth or teleport or whatever. It's only happened a couple times but it's pretty frustrating. In addition to this their design mandates that for some fucking reason I have to fight every mob and it's family if I just want that herb or that star mob on the map. Instead of encouraging me to do more world stuff I find I look at it, see how dense the mob concentration is and then yay or nay.

[TyrianFC]

I think most players ingame (types who would never visit mmo forums) have everything they could ever want / need / care about in the Flightmasters Whistle, and they care less and less about flying to the point where Blizzard could just not re-implement it at all and they wouldnt bother to bat an eyelid. The response would be 'as long as I have my whistle'

Thus the whistle is a major blow to the loudest pro-flying advocates, its turning you into an ever decreasing niche minority, because it appeases a good portion of the playerbase .

... Which I think is Blizzards plan here, appease people slowly but surely (with items such as the whistle) to the point where nobody gives a shit about flying anymore.... except for a couple extremist clowns here on mmochamp who will kick and scream to the high heavens.

IF there was no whistle ingame, then I can imagine lots of people would eventually get fed up with travel/world quests and want to fly, but Blizzard thought about that in advance and took care of it.

[SirCowdog]

A little over two weeks in, and as expected I really enjoyed the leveling content. Have one max level, a 105, and a 103, took me a bit to figure out a main w/how much the artifact impacts the playstyle.

The whistle makes open world travel tolerable between world quests, but is quickly losing its novelty. If I have a world quest in certain areas like the city of Suramar it is likely I just won't do it due to travel being a PITA.

I spend more time running around w/my map open then paying attention to the world.

Sub is up at the end of the month, it is unlikely I will re up it, as I find the irritation of travel is beginning to exceed the fun of the content. Maybe 7.1 will bring flight and I will stick around.

I've been sitting at 110 on my hunter for a few days now, and my honest opinion is that there isn't anything in the open world so far that would be outright broken by flying. It's tolerable without flying, but definitely nothing that made me sit up in my seat and actually take notice of "wow...that was actually amazing without flying!".

The only area I can think of that was really cool was when you go to hell, and being the exception to the rule, could easily have been a special no flying zone.

I'd be curious to know which areas besides that which ground players felt was so exceptional that flying would have ruined it. Grapples don't count, because they're a silly gimmick that wasn't even that good, and could be accomplished as a puzzle with a no-flying debuff.

Because, literally, every world quest I've done so far has consisted of: FP to the nearest high place in the zone, pop glider+winds, gather up and AoE as many targets as possible, then flightmaster whistle or hearth.

I'm really not sure where the amazing gameplay that flight breaks is supposed to be in that rotation.

[rebecca191]

It would "break" Suramar because they want you to waste as much time on trash mobs as possible and avoiding guards and blah blah "immersion immersion immersion" (while ignoring the immersion-breaking "Wtf why can't my dragon fly anymore" thing, of course).

Of course they could easily have just made that a no fly zone with some explanation like "energy shield you have to eventually weaken after finishing everything here blah blah blah."

Also, literally the only thing the stupid whistle helps with is moving on to the next world quest if it's in a different area. It saves you the time going back to the flightmaster and that's it. It doesn't help with getting there in the first place. It doesn't help with gathering. It doesn't help with archeology. It doesn't help with time wasted due to fighting the scaled up mobs with their lv 110 aggro range that are totally unrelated to the quest and drop nothing of value. It's about as useful as the Dalaran HS would be if they gave that a 5 min CD instead.

Have you gone to Suramar yet? If you don't like no flight you really aren't going to enjoy that zone. Two of my friends who still play have been complaining about that zone and I didn't even think they cared about flying. Apparently they do now that they feel required to do quests in a zone which annoys them personally.

[TyrianFC]

It would "break" Suramar because they want you to waste as much time on trash mobs as possible and avoiding guards and blah blah "immersion immersion immersion" (while ignoring the immersion-breaking "Wtf why can't my dragon fly anymore" thing, of course).

Of course they could easily have just made that a no fly zone with some explanation like "energy shield you have to eventually weaken after finishing everything here blah blah blah."

Also, literally the only thing the stupid whistle helps with is moving on to the next world quest if it's in a different area. It saves you the time going back to the flightmaster and that's it. It doesn't help with getting there in the first place. It doesn't help with gathering. It doesn't help with archeology. It doesn't help with time wasted due to fighting the scaled up mobs with their lv 110 aggro range that are totally unrelated to the quest and drop nothing of value. It's about as useful as the Dalaran HS would be if they gave that a 5 min CD instead.

Have you gone to Suramar yet? If you don't like no flight you really aren't going to enjoy that zone. Two of my friends who still play have been complaining about that zone and I didn't even think they cared about flying. Apparently they do now that they feel required to do quests in a zone which annoys them personally.

Suramar is a fantastic zone for so many reasons. One of which is because we have to do it on the ground. It's a fantastic example of content delivered that would be completely messed up if people were simply allowed to fly over it.

You don't 'waste' time on trash mobs and avoiding guards at all. You simply need to..... actually have your eyes open as you go about your usual business (which is optional if flying from A to B 500 yards above the city).

Contrary to your 'two friends', you can also see on the various forum threads on Suramar there are people who might have cared about flying before, not wanting to ever be able to fly in Suramar because of how well put together the zone is and how much itd detract from the experience.

This is what i've educated you on before, rebecca. If the content is amazing, people dont care about whether they fly or not - they'll embrace and enjoy it while on the ground. And Suramar is amazing content, hence why it gets that reaction from people.

I'd be curious to know which areas besides that which ground players felt was so exceptional that flying would have ruined it. Grapples don't count, because they're a silly gimmick that wasn't even that good, and could be accomplished as a puzzle with a no-flying debuff.

Grapples most certainily do count. I really enjoyed them, gimmick or not, and I thought they were great and integrated into the zone and quests well. Want to get into that village? Well grapple onto a wall to get over it (instead of just flying over it). etc It was something that while I did I was thinking 'flying would ruin this / render it pointless'. Also fit the look and feel of the zone well. Suramar is the biggest example (an entire zone) in answer of your question.

[rebecca191]

I played beta and I hated Suramar too much to spend more than two hours there. There is actually a thread on this forum that is mainly people who hate Suramar. Yeah some people disagree with the OP but a bunch of people don't and it wouldn't have gone on 13 pages if only the OP disliked it. Sure, a lot of people like it. And some people don't. The gameplay there is not for everyone. Regardless, it could have been a no flying zone like Timeless Isle and Isle of Thunder, so Suramar is a terrible reason to gate flying for so long in the other zones which you pretty much see all there is to see (with the exception of a few tiny spots on the map) while leveling.

Small sample but in the poll on Suramar only about half the people loved it and a quarter didn't like it. Obviously not everyone thinks it's OMG THE BEST THING EVER. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-with-Suramar-)

[TyrianFC]

I played beta and I hated Suramar too much to spend more than two hours there. There is actually a thread on this forum that is mainly people who hate Suramar. Yeah some people disagree with the OP but a bunch of people don't and it wouldn't have gone on 13 pages if only the OP disliked it. Sure, a lot of people like it. And some people don't. The gameplay there is not for everyone. Regardless, it could have been a no flying zone like Timeless Isle and Isle of Thunder, so Suramar is a terrible reason to gate flying for so long in the other zones which you pretty much see all there is to see (with the exception of a few tiny spots on the map) while leveling.

Small sample but in the poll on Suramar only about half the people loved it and a quarter didn't like it. Obviously not everyone thinks it's OMG THE BEST THING EVER. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-with-Suramar-)

Honestly it just sounds like WoW just isnt the game for you. There's nothing wrong with coming to terms and accepting that you know, because it sounds like you're desperately trying to force a square peg through a round hole.

[rebecca191]

Honestly it just sounds like WoW just isnt the game for you. There's nothing wrong with coming to terms and accepting that you know, because it sounds like you're desperately trying to force a square peg through a round hole.

I loved the game for 8 years and I am the one with the problem? Yeah, no. I liked WoW perfectly fine until they started trying to remove flying (though WoD would have been garbage either way as I saw when they gave everyone who didn't have it a free copy a few months ago). But Legion would have been fun for me with flying. Even if Suramar was a no fly zone. I'd just ignore it until I excessively overgeared it and then do it solely for pets/mounts/toys then never go back after I got those. I'd happily go around doing achievements, collecting pets, collecting toys, finishing all the other reps, etc in every other zone if I could. But not without flying. It took me less than a week on beta at 110 to be completely done with dealing with crappy travel. And yes, I had the whistle. It was not beneficial for what I was interested in doing. Plus it honestly just felt stupid and immersion killing if anything to just teleport over to the FP after the screen went blank.

[TyrianFC]

I loved the game for 8 years and I am the one with the problem? Yeah, no. I liked WoW perfectly fine until they started trying to remove flying

No, you didnt like WoW 'perfectly fine' until they started playing around with flying. The sooner you stop trying to convince yourself that, the sooner you'll come to terms with the fact you're playing the wrong game. There's no shame in it, either, rebecca.

[Zalamander]

No, you didnt like WoW 'perfectly fine' until they started playing around with flying. The sooner you stop trying to convince yourself that, the sooner you'll come to terms with the fact you're playing the wrong game. There's no shame in it, either, rebecca.

Sorry mate but when you are out of arguments it doesn't become any more valid just telling some one "-No you are wrong because you are wrong." deal with it, you are the one who are wrong.

Yes WoW has been my favorite game for over 8 years too and I really hate that they started messing with flying. they really need to learn the term. "If it ain't broken, don't fix it."

[rebecca191]

No, you didnt like WoW 'perfectly fine' until they started playing around with flying. The sooner you stop trying to convince yourself that, the sooner you'll come to terms with the fact you're playing the wrong game. There's no shame in it, either, rebecca.

I enjoyed WoW for 8 years. The decision to not have flight in WoD was literally the first time I ever unsubscribed for because of a gameplay reason. The two times before then when I unsubbed were due to personal reasons - once for health issues, the other time because I had a newborn. I didn't force myself to play a game I loathed for 8 years, I genuinely enjoyed it until they took away flying. WoD I would have hated anyway as I saw when I finally played it. Legion I would have enjoyed with flying because in beta I saw lots I wanted to do but the travel was just way too horrible for the types of things I wanted to do. The only people really helped by the flightmaster whistle are people trying to cram in a bunch of world quests in less time for the AP and rewards. It doesn't help for any other playstyle at all.

And currently, I'm not playing WoW at all. I got the Legion launch event transmog stuff then let my game time from the WoW token run out. I only played Legion in beta. I am most likely returning when flying is obtainable, unless later parts of achievement are completely horrible, because it will mean I can once again enjoy the game and the activities I want to do in the game.

[Jewsco]

Sorry mate but when you are out of arguments it doesn't become any more valid just telling some one "-No you are wrong because you are wrong." deal with it, you are the one who are wrong.

Yes WoW has been my favorite game for over 8 years too and I really hate that they started messing with flying. they really need to learn the term. "If it ain't broken, don't fix it."

I thjnk the sub numbers alone speaks volumes on the flying issue. The game never has lost as many as quickly until they messed with flying and they tried to outright get rid of it and they had to reverse course in less than 2 weeks.
I think that shows how the majority of the player base feels about flying. Of all things in game why try to "fix" something that wasn't broken nor a problem. And if I hear wpvp people chime in where was the wpvp with no flying for most of WoD or even now in legion?
Wpvp died due to instanced pvp namely battle grounds.
Anyone liking travel in the game now I guess likes to waste thier time to get places and actually play the game. I am fine with flying at max level but once I am max level let me fly.

[rebecca191]

A lot returned for Legion, since they won't give sub numbers we don't know how many exactly. It could go either way, they may produce enough shiny new stuff that people keep playing. But they could also burn out people who get tired of using a ground mount in the same zone they've been in many dozens of times already over the past few months. Honestly based on the friends I still have playing (which granted, is a small sample size of less than 10, the rest either quit or removed me from bnet in the year and half of WoD I was gone for), and this is just my personal opinion based on how they've enjoyed/not enjoyed the content, the few friends from my hardcore raiding days that still play the game will probably keep on playing. But the more casual ones I think will burn out on things like Suramar. Time will tell.