Retribution - The Dream

[Nurvus]

I posted this suggestion in the official EU forums, but I'm not sure how much of an attention they are given, and the complaint spam is real.
EU Forum Thread
If you like these ideas, feel free to post this on the NA forums.

[] DISCLAIMER []

• Everything below is my opinion
• None of it is buff/nerf requests
• Numbers suggested are illustrative - focus on the concepts.
• Avoid evaluating each suggestion individually - they are suggested as a whole.

[] INDEX []
1 - Baseline
2 - Mobility
3 - Consecration
4 - Auras
5 - Seals
6 - Talents
7 - Traits

[] 1 - BASELINE []
I open up GCDs for Seals and make sure Mastery's window of increased damage stays a window, and not a permanent buff.

Judgment - 15 sec base cooldown (up from 12). Hits 1 enemy.
Judgment (Rank 2) - Remaining Cooldown halved if target dies while affected by your Judgment or Censure.
Judgment (Rank 3) - Also relocates your Consecration beneath the target.
Mastery: Divine Judgment - Buffed to compensate lower uptime.
Greater Blessings - Replaced by Auras.
Hand of Hindrance - Reworked into Seal of Justice.
Crusader Strike (Rank 3) - Crusader Strike now has 3 charges.
Blade of Justice - 12 sec base cooldown (up from 10.5).
Divine Storm - 5 Holy Power. Damage increased accordingly.


[] 2 - MOBILITY []
Paladin mobility should be more like DKs (relentless) and less like Warriors (acrobatic).

[Suggestion]
Divine Steed - Becomes a Talent.
Long Arm of the Law - Passive. Your Judgment increases your movement speed by 45% and suppresses slows and dazes on you. Lasts 3 seconds.
Perseverance - Passive. Whenever a movement impairing or loss of control effect is applied on you, you gain 1 charge of Holy Power.

[] 3 - CONSECRATION []
The Paladin should be its strongest while standing in holy ground.
Protection embraces this concept in Legion, but it should be integral to the class.

[Suggestion]
Consecration - 30 second cooldown. Consecrates the ground for 10 seconds, granting the Paladin increased Damage and Healing while standing in it.
Holy Power spenders increase its Duration by 3 sec and its Radius by 1 yd. Only 1 Consecration can be active at any time.
---
No baseline damage.
Meant for 100% uptime in PvE, but requires skill/teamwork in PvP to benefit from a few seconds.

This allows Blizzard to make Paladins competitive in PvE without being broken in PvP.

[] 4 - AURAS []
Auras are another core concept of Paladins.
Holy has the best iteration of Auras to date, but it should be integral to the class.
While Holy Auras by default affect allies within 10 yards, I suggest Retribution Auras only buff the Paladin.
Aura Mastery still empowers & extends their effect(s) to allies.
Auras suggested below are defensive because a) they are baseline and you can swap at will, and b) couldn't think of more than 1 damage Aura that doesn't make me feel like a Shaman wannabe.

[Suggestion]
Auras are affected by the GCD.
Auras last until cancelled.
Only one aura can be active at any one time.
---
Aura Mastery - 3 min cooldown. Empowers your current Aura and extends its effects to allies within 40 yds for 6 seconds. Can be used while under loss of control effects. Affected allies cannot benefit from Aura Mastery again for 3 minutes.
Devotion Aura - Reduce physical damage taken by 10%.
Aura Mastery: 30%.
Sanctity Aura - Reduce magical damage taken by 10%.
Aura Mastery: 30%.
Purity Aura - Reduce duration of harmful effects on you by 15%.
Aura Mastery: 50% and also affects the remaining duration of ongoing harmful effects.

[] 5 - SEALS []
Paladins wield the Light while Warriors fight with savagery.
We should have more than animations to reflect that distinction.
Classic Seals, despite their various flaws, came the closest to accomplish this.
Spending a few GCDs empowering ourselves during combat was the most "Paladin" I ever felt playing the class.

[Suggestion]
Seals are affected by GCD.
Multiple (different) Seals can simultaneously empower the same ability.
---
Seal of Truth - 12 second (shared) Recharge (reduced by Haste). Max 2 charges.
Empowers the next 2 abilities:

• Judgment - Also applies Censure to your target for 30 seconds, increasing Holy damage taken from you. Only 1 target can be affected by your Censure at any one time.
• TV, Execution Sentence & Fist of the Heavens - Guaranteed critical strike. Damage increased by critical chance.
• DS - Damage doubled against the target affected by your Censure and grants Eternal Truth, reducing the cost of your Templar's Verdict by 1 for 20 seconds.

Seal of Righteousness - 12 second (shared) Recharge (reduced by Haste). Max 2 charges.
Empowers the next 2 abilities:

• Judgment, Execution Sentence & Fist of the Heavens - Also hits enemies within 8 yds of your target.
• Consecration - Also pulses Holy damage.
• TV - Hits all targets in front of you and grants Eternal Righteousness, reducing the cost of your DS by 2 for 20 seconds.
• DS - Guaranteed critical strike. Damage increased by critical chance.

Seal of Justice - 12 second (shared) Recharge (reduced by Haste). Max 2 charges.
Empowers the next 2 abilities:

• Judgment - Has an additional 10 yd Range and prevents enemies from moving faster than normal for X seconds.
• Consecration - Enemies cannot enter or leave for 6 seconds.
• TV - 10 yds Range. Cannot be avoided.
  Damage +100% if you are affected by a Movement Impairing effect or daze.
  Damage +100% if target is affected by a temporary Movement Speed increase.
  Damage +100% if target is Stunned.
• DS, Execution Sentence & Fist of the Heavens - Damage doubled against moving enemies. Dazes enemies for 6 sec.

Seal of Light - 12 second (shared) Recharge (reduced by Haste). Max 2 charges.
Empowers the next 2 abilities:

• Judgment - Also applies Radiance to your target for 8 seconds, causing the extra damage taken from your Mastery to also heal you. Only 1 target can be affected by your Radiance at any one time.
• Consecration - Also pulses healing.
• TV, Execution Sentence & Fist of the Heavens - Heals you for 100% of damage done.
• DS - Heals you for 50% of damage done.

[] 6 - TALENTS []
Level 15
1 - The Fires of Justice - 30% Chance. Stacks until it procs. CS critical strikes deal Radiant damage.
2 - Execution Sentence - Benefits from your Seals without consuming them.
When the effect ends or is removed, or if the target dies, refunds 2 Holy Power.
3 - Blade of Wrath - CS has a chance to reset the cooldown of your BoJ. Critical strikes have 100% chance.
Level 30
1 - Greater Seals - Your Seals last 50% longer and affect 1 additional ability.
2 - Swift Seals - Reduces the cooldown of your Seals by 2 sec and increases their maximum number of charges by 1.
3 - Zeal - Using a Seal reduces the cost of your next Holy Power spender by 1, and every point of Holy Power spent reduces the cooldown on your Seals by 0.25 sec.
Level 45
1 - Fist of Justice - No Change.
2 - Repentance - No Change.
3 - Blinding Light - No Change.
Level 60
1 - Final Verdict - Your TV increases the damage of your next DS against the target affected by your Censure, and your DS increases the damage of your next TV. Max 3 stacks.
2 - Vengeful Light - 100% of your Flash of Light and 10% of your other healing is dealt as Holy damage to enemies within 8 yds. This damage is doubled and has no range limit against enemies affected by your Judgment or Censure.
3 - Consecrated Blade - Your Consecration also causes your BoJ to deal Holy damage and hit all enemies affected by your Judgment.
Level 75
1 - Holy Presence - You always gain the effect of your three Auras, even when you empower them with Aura Mastery.
2 - Valorous Wrath - During Avenging Wrath, you gain an absorption shield equal to X% of your damage and healing done.
3 - Blazing Light - Your Holy Power spenders have a chance to make your next Flash of Light instant. Max 3 charges.
Level 90
1 - Fist of the Heavens - 1 min cooldown (reduced by Haste). 3 Holy Power. 40 yd Range. Ascend into the Light, breaking free from movement impairing effects, becoming invulnerable and untargetable for 2 seconds, relocating your active Consecration to the position of your target, and then strike from above, dealing Holy damage and refreshing your Judgment on the target. Benefits from your Seals without consuming them.
Targeted, Light-infused version of D3's Falling Sword.
2 - Divine Steed - Replaces Long Arm of the Law. 2 Charges. 45 sec recharge (reduced by Haste). Summons your Holy mount to ride for 3 sec, increasing movement speed by 100% (120% with Heart of the Crusader) and suppressing slows and dazes on you. Usable while indoors or in combat.
3 - Pursuit of Justice - Passive. Increases your movement speed by 3% and reduces the effectiveness of slows on you by 6% per charge of Holy Power.
Level 100
1 - Divine Purpose - 10% Base Chance. 20% Chance on Crit. Chance stacks until it procs.
2 - Crusade - No Change.
3 - Virtue's Blade - Your BoJ critical strikes and the first Holy Power spender critical strike within 6 seconds deal 3 times normal damage.

[] 7 - TRAITS []
Might of the Templar - Also improves Execution Sentence.
Echo of the Highlord - Also mimics Execution Sentence.
Divine Tempest - Every 15 Holy Power spent, your next DS is free and projects foward 20 yds.
Healing Storm - X% of the damage dealt by DS is split evenly as healing over 15 seconds by up to 6 allies.

[Wrecktangle]

I posted this suggestion in the official EU forums, but I'm not sure how much of an attention they are given, and the complaint spam is real.
EU Forum Thread
If you like these ideas, feel free to post this on the NA forums.

[] DISCLAIMER []

• Everything below is my opinion
• None of it is buff/nerf requests
• Numbers suggested are illustrative - focus on the concepts.
• This isn't a tuning suggestion, so if I don't suggest a change, it doesn't mean I think the ability is fine.
• Most suggestions work best together, so avoid evaluating them individually.

I'll start by saying this sounds very similar to my build I came up with way back in beta. I love reading these, and enjoyed writing mine so I'll put some effort into my responses for yours.

[] INDEX []
1 - Consecration
2 - Seals
2.1 - Seal-related Changes
3 - Mobility
4 - Baseline Abilities
5 - Talents

[] 1 - CONSECRATION []
The Paladin should be its strongest while standing in holy ground.
Consecration is ideal to accomplish this, and it deserves to be more than a simple AoE.

[Suggestion]
Consecration - 15 second cooldown. Consecrates the ground for 6 seconds, granting the Paladin X% increased Damage and Healing while standing in it.
Holy Power spenders increase its Duration by 3 sec and its Radius by 1 yd, both up to 15, but only 1 Consecration can be active at any time.
---
In PvE you would be expected to maintain 100% uptime.
In PvP, even keeping your enemies inside it for its base duration would require skill/teamwork.

No damage by default, but certain spec mechanics might give it damage or healing over time.

This would greatly help Blizzard balance Paladins between PvP and PvE, allowing them to make us feel powerful and compete in PvE while having counterplay in PvP.

I like the idea of consecration being a key mechanic. I am not sold on a 100% uptime management ability though. I think it would be more rewarding if it was like you are expected to manage 60% uptime, but solid play can put out 70-75%, thus allowing room for GOOD players to outperform mediocre players in FOTM specs. just my .02.

I like the range + duration increase effect. I think using pvp talents that tailor a Ret to a "jailer" archetype would benefit this concept (and if you read my build you'd know I like the jailer archetype). Give talents an option to make consecration boost damage for self or maybe defense for allies (i.e. RBG viability here).

[] 2 - SEALS []
Paladins wield the Light while Warriors fight with savagery.
We need more than animations to reflect that distinction.
Vanilla Seals, despite their various flaws, came the closest to accomplish this.
Spending a few GCDs empowering ourselves during combat was the most "Paladin" I ever felt playing the class.

Agreed wholeheartedly here. Our animations should reflect prowess with light magic, not the savagery and STRICT melee mechanics that a warrior employs. My build also utilized a "press button" next ability does X+Y. I like this mechanic as well. However one thing my post taught me is that all these GREAT ideas are excellent, but when combined can be overbearing even for a quality player when combined with encounter mechanics.

[Suggestion]
Seals are affected by GCD and share 2 Charges with a 10 second Recharge (reduced by Haste).
They provide 2 single-use benefits:

• Empower your next Judgment
• Empower your next use of one of a few specific abilities.

Seal of Truth - Causes your next Judgment to also apply Censure to your target, increasing Holy damage taken from you for 30 seconds. Only 1 target can be affected by your Censure at any one time.
In addition, you are granted Divine Truth for 6 seconds, empowering the next Templar's Verdict or Divine Storm:

• Templar's Verdict - Guaranteed critical strike. Damage increased by critical chance.
• Divine Storm - Damage doubled against the target affected by your Censure and grants Eternal Truth, reducing the cost of your Templar's Verdict by 1 for 20 seconds.

Seal of Righteousness - Causes your next Judgment to also hit enemies within X yds of your target.
In addition, you are granted Divine Righteousness for 6 seconds, empowering the next Consecration, Templar's Verdict or Divine Storm:

• Consecration - Also pulses Holy damage. Pulse rate affected by Haste.
• Templar's Verdict - Hits all targets in front of you and grants Eternal Righteousness, reducing the cost of your Divine Storm by 1 for 20 seconds.
• Divine Storm - Guaranteed critical strike. Damage increased by critical chance.

Seal of Justice - Causes your next Judgment to have an additional 10 yds Range and also supress Movement Speed increasing effects, preventing enemies from moving faster than normal.
In addition, you are granted Divine Justice for 6 seconds, empowering the next Templar's Verdict or Divine Storm:

• Templar's Verdict - 10 yds Range. Cannot be avoided.
  Damage increased by 75% if you are affected by a slow or daze.
  Damage increased by 75% if your target is moving.
  Damage increased by 75% if your target is affected by a temporary Movement Speed increase.
• Divine Storm - Slows moving enemies by 50% and increases their damage taken by X% for 6 seconds.

Lots of content in here. You'd be MUCH better off focusing on a single mechanic. In your proposed build you'd have to manage consecration and censure as maintenance buffs. Then you'd have to manage rapidly changing Holy Power, positioning requirement changes, and tracking which debuffs you're afflicted with to maximize damage increases with SoJ.

[Mechanic Notes]

• Different Seal effects stack.
  You can use Seal of Truth + Seal of Justice + Judgment + Templar's Verdict to auto-crit while slowed on a moving and speed-increased enemy for insane damage. However, it takes you 3 gcds to setup (Seal+Seal+Judge) assuming you already have the Holy Power.
• Judging during Seal of Justice grants you 3 seconds where:
  - enemy speed boosts are ignored (but not removed)
  - slows on you are ignored (but not removed)
  - you move a bit faster
  Therefore you can still benefit from all 3 damage modifiers on your Seal of Justice + Templar's Verdict.

Same issue as above - lots of bloat and unneeded complexity.

[] 3 - MOBILITY []
Paladin mobility should be more like Death Knights (relentless) and less like Warriors (acrobatic).
I don't think Divine Steed makes sense for Paladin, but it's my opinion, so at least it should be an option - a Talent - and not baseline, so those that love the idea still have it available.

[Suggestion]
Divine Steed becomes a Talent again and is replaced by 2 passives:
Long Arm of the Law - Passive. Your Judgment increases your movement speed by 30% and suppresses slows and dazes on you for 3 seconds.
Pursuit of Justice - Passive. Increases your movement speed by 3% per charge of Holy Power, and whenever a movement impairing effect is applied on you, you gain 1 charge of Holy Power.
Alternatively, Long Arm of the Law's movement speed increase is 45% instead of 30%, but Pursuit of Justice reduces the effectiveness of slows on you by 6% per charge of Holy Power, instead of increasing movement speed.

Agreed - looks similar to my talent setup in my build.

[] 5 - TALENTS []
Level 15
1 - The Fires of Justice - Stacks 15% Chance until it procs.
2 - Zeal - Seals cause your Crusader Strike uses in the next 20 seconds to stack an effect up to 3 times:

• Truth - Attack Speed +X%.
• Righteousness - Number of enemies hit by further Crusader Strikes +1.
• Justice - Movement speed +5%.

3 - Greater Judgment - No extra targets (Seals handle that), but generates 2 charges of Holy Power against targets below 50% Health.

Lots of content here. You're adding EVEN another layer of complexity into a system that's already overloaded with mechanics based on seals.

Level 30
1 - Blade of Wrath - Critical strikes generate an additional charge of Holy Power.
Now deals its full damage in one hit.
2 - Execution Sentence - 30 sec (up from 20) base cooldown (reduced by Haste).
You gain 3 charges of Holy Power at the end of the effect.
Benefits from Divine Seal effects without consuming them:

• Truth - Guaranteed critical strike. Damage increased by critical chance.
• Righteousness - Hits all enemies within 8 yds of the target.
• Justice - Daze for 3 sec.

3 - Wrathbringer - 1 min cooldown (reduced by Haste). 5 Holy Power. 1 sec cast. Unleashes 8 Holy bolts over 2 seconds, each dealing Holy damage, and spread evenly across enemies within 20 yards.
You then gain 5 charges of Holy Power over 15 seconds (reduced by Haste).

I like the interaction with crit. Our spec desperately needs it. More complexity though with seals. Imagine if you took all talents regarding seals down a line? That spec would be absolutely insane. There aren't enough WA in the world to manage that lol.

I don't like Wrathbringer per-se, BUT I will say we desperately need an AOE melt phase burst button. I think 1m CD is appropriate as well. I think the old Holy Wrath - 2.5s channel does massive AOE damage, allow movement, hell still give it the 5 Hopo gain. You should see how other spec's press one button and clear an entire AOE pack.

Level 60
1 - Final Verdict - Your Templar's Verdict increases the damage of your next Divine Storm by X%, and your Divine Storm increases the damage of your next Templar's Verdict by Y%. Stacks up to 3 times.
2 - Holy Wrath - 3 min cooldown. Deals Holy damage to all enemies affected by your Judgment. Damage increased by X% per charge of Wrath. You gain a charge of Wrath for every 3 Holy Power spent or Y% Health lost, up to Z charges. Lose 1 Charge every 5 seconds when out of combat.
3 - Consecrated Blade - Blade of Justice used on an enemy inside your Consecration hits all enemies inside it and benefits from your Mastery.

I don't like the stacking mechanic of FV. Way too complex given rest of your build. Again your HW is ridiculous to even read and manage. You gain damage per charge, which is gained by spending 3 HoPo, or over health lost and it has charges?

Consecrated blade is ok - but it should be a baseline feature of the Consecration mechanic.

Level 90
1 - Fist of the Heavens - 1 min cooldown. 40 yd Range. Can only be used on a target affected by your Judgment. Ascend into the Light, breaking free from movement impairing effects, becoming untargetable and crashing down on the target 1 second later, wherever he is, dealing Holy damage to the target and nearby enemies and refreshing your Judgment on them.
2 - Divine Steed - Replaces Long Arm of the Law. 2 Charges. 45 sec recharge. Summons your Holy mount to ride for 3 sec, increasing movement speed by 100% (120% with Heart of the Crusader) and suppressing slows and dazes on you. Usable while indoors or in combat.
3 - Seal of Light - Renamed Zealotry (doesn't share any mechanics with Seals).

Not sold on any mobility talent here honestly. Your examples of baseline mobility were good enough, and arguably too much.

Level 100
1 - Divine Purpose - 10% Chance (20% on Crit). Stacks 10% (20% on Crit) until it procs.
2 - Crusade - No Change.
3 - Virtue's Blade - Your Blade of Justice critical strikes and the first Holy Power spender critical strike within 6 seconds deal 3 times normal damage.

Not sold on DP having a crit mechanic. I don't even know how the math check on that would work behind the scenes lol.

All in all you have some nice ideas, but you have too many for a simple and effective process.

[Schmilblick]

Keep dreaming.

[Nurvus]

I'll start by saying this sounds very similar to my build I came up with way back in beta. I love reading these, and enjoyed writing mine so I'll put some effort into my responses for yours.

All in all you have some nice ideas, but you have too many for a simple and effective process.

Thanks a lot for the feedback.
I'll try to improve my suggestions with it in mind.

However, there are a few things I believe you may be deconstructing too much or analyzing too individually:
1 - Zeal currently hits harder and stacks cleave targets. My idea doesn't add complexity to it, merely adapts it to Seals, because in my suggestion Seals determine what you are focusing on - mainly ST vs AoE.
2 - I increase cooldown on several abilities, including Judgment, so the long arm of the law isn't as strong as in past iterations, and the complexity I add to your rotation isn't the nightmare it would be otherwise.
3 - Final Verdict is actually meant to be intuitive. Every couple TVs you get a ST-worthy DS, and every couple DS you get an AoE-worthy TV.
Ideally you will want to align it with Seals, but that would only happen once every 20-30 sec.
4 - Some of the suggestions may be "mouthy" but are meant to flow rather intuitively.
5 - On my Seal mechanic notes, I merely gave examples of potential and practical aplications.
Understand that Seals aren't extra button presses. They merely fill some of the room opened by the increase in cooldown on other abilities.
6 - My mobility talents are meant to not step on anyone's toes.
I personally hate Divine Steed, but some may love it, so I left it as a talent where it doesn't affect those who hate it, like me.
Seal of Light follows a similar thoughr process.
Fist of the Heavens is the closest I could come to a compromise between instant gap closer and paladin fantasy.
7 - HW in live is just bad gameplay, at least in PvE.
I suggest making its damage more reliable by giving you 3 different ways to build its potential, in a way that doesn't make it broken.

I have to go now. I'll continue later.

[Wrecktangle]

Keep dreaming.

Sick post kid.

Snip.

I'll go into a little more detail: I think that you're looking at too big of a picture and failing to see the enormous monstrosity you created, rather than isolating and identifying core gameplay issues that may exist.

Baseline you have 3 new buttons called Seals. Your goal is to press a seal (relevant to your situation) then press judgment to enact its bonus effects. From a gameplay perspective you have to make a decision which seal to press, wait for GCD then press Judgment to gain effect. That to me feels slightly awkward. Workable, but awkward. Because you have to spend 2 GCD's to do one ability it means the ability needs to be fairly powerful (which I'm not gauging whether yours or isn't since it's more mathematical than conceptual). Here's a scenario below:

Single target tank and spank You cast Seal of Truth -> wait 1.5s -> Cast Judgment -> Then you gain a maintenance debuff to manage that lasts (30s), in addition you also now gain a short duration buff (6s) that you have to spend very quickly on either TV or DS. Spending it on TV is a straightforward DPS increase via auto-crit/cdmg scaling. Using it on DS is also a DPS increase (even at single target with all DS traits, you'd have to measure crit breakpoints to determine DPS benefit, but again just added complexity), but then grants yet another buff (20s) that reduces HoPo cost of next TV by 1.

Listen to that out loud to understand why its incredibly cumbersome, and that's just ONE seal.

As far as the Seal -> Seal -> TV mechanic using 3 GCD's is a neat idea. It reduces the penalty for having downtime slightly by being able to basically pool bonuses to unload when your'e able, but I'm not 100% sure its good gameplay.

I misread originally your baseline mobility vs. talents setup. So baseline we have 2 mobility mechanics, which IMO is too many, not even counting that you can some via talents. I'f prefer to see 1, and have a talent row dedicated to improving/changing it.

Your Judgment CD change isn't very good IMO. You're correct that with Haste it becomes a bland mess, but I'm not sold increasing the CD is the correct approach, especially considering how bland ret's 2 button rotation is. bow -> cs ->cs, etc. Your seals would have hoped to fill in the blanks here, but with judgments increased CD it's kinda irrelevant.

You do have some solid ideas in here. I especially liked your idea behind consecrate, and honestly I'd have preferred Blizzard found a unique way of tying consecration to our mastery (and I'm not even that much against our copy of colossus smash).

[Nurvus]

Snip.

Well, I made this suggestion with some conflicting concepts in mind.
On one hand, I wanted it to feel "familiar" enough to the current one, while adding new stuff.
On the other hand, I added some big changes like Consecration and Seal.

Maybe I should've gone all the waya and change Talents to better accomodate the changes, such as a straight-forward Seal-oriented Talent row.
Will try to make some changes, then I'll edit the OP.

That being said:
1 - Censure is something you really shouldn't have to care too much about since if you don't use at least 1 Judgment of Truth every 30 seconds, you're doing something wrong, anyway. It should occur naturally.
2 - Eternal Truth and Eternal Righteousness are the one buff you want to monitor, and you can even have both at the same time, although there isn't much of a point.
3 - The way Seals overlap, a ST opener would be SoT + SoR -> Judgment for Censure -> DS for Eternal Truth going.
4 - I suggested 2 alternatives for baseline mobility - 30% boost on Judgment but you also get MS scaling with HoPo, or 45% boost from Judgment and slow reduction scaling with HoPo.
Note: When Long Arm of the Law and Pursuit of Justice were Talents, Long Arm of the Law gave 45% MS for 3 sec and Judgment had half the cooldown that I'm suggesting here, and Pursuit of Justice gave a flat 15% MS plus 5% MS per HoPo, up to 30% total.

[caervek]

[] 1 - CONSECRATION []

And, here's my downvote lol.

On a constructive note though, it's a bit odd that you say Paladins should be less like Warriors then advocate turning judgement into colossus smash.

[Nurvus]

And, here's my downvote lol.

On a constructive note though, it's a bit odd that you say Paladins should be less like Warriors then advocate turning judgement into colossus smash.

Honestly, Colossus Smash is a lot less interesting than Judgment.
If anything, theirs feels like a sad copy of ours.
Divine Judgment is a window of damage that only affects our finishers, which properly tuned can provide interesting gameplay.
Colossus Smash is just a bland universal damage buff with no real gameplay around it.

So as far as Masteries go, Warriors are the ones who got the short end of the "gameplay" stick.

- - - Updated - - -

Snip.

Edited the OP with some changes.
Give me a link to your topic so I can steal some ideas as well

[Sigxy]

I'd prefer it if Seals were back to just temporary things and when you judge them, they go away - buuuut, there are several Seals that gives certain debuffs to the enemy and when you Judge with a proper DPS seal, the other seal's judgment debuff goes back to it's original duration to avoid the annoying seal dancing constantly.

...Though I wonder how it'd work if we were very auto-attack dependant, but between each auto attack you seal up as many as you can and when you hit, they go away while you do a lot of damage/debuff the enemy or do good stuff to you/allies.

[Nurvus]

I'd prefer it if Seals were back to just temporary things and when you judge them, they go away

That's what I suggest, although you also get a benefit to the next finisher.

[Sigxy]

That's what I suggest, although you also get a benefit to the next finisher.

Yeah, I know - but meant more as in adding that to the other part I wish they would do after you judge, maybe Seal of Light + Judgment so everyone who attacks that target heals (Hey, Blizzard, there's utility for you!) and whenever you use.. whichever Seal that's purely for DpS, it won't grant another debuff on the enemy, but it refreshes the Judgment effect from Seal of Light.

[Deleted]

I like the thought behind it and cannot but feel sad there are fans coming down with ideas much more better than the ones sold by people whose job is to come down with them.
Am keen of the idea of making cons a baseline ability wouldnt like it to play such a key role though. I dont want me to be bound by it , more i would like it to be bound to me (following me around probably) or me enemies to it (doing most of damage on first ticks or making enemies move slower or being unable to cast or something of the likes).
Perserverance: like the idea behind it. Everything they do to cc/slow us down taking a percentage of from the cds of our abilities would sound even better .
Anyways hope u bump it before next expansion bro.

[Kisuke42]

I do realize Blizz keeps changing classes to make them feel new and fresh.

However I do miss seals as they were a signatures ability for paladin.

[Vuagnon]

I just want a proper toolkit, which can answer all situations. We still don't have it.

[Nurvus]

I just want a proper toolkit, which can answer all situations. We still don't have it.

Made some changes to my suggestion.
Let me know what you think.

[Wrecktangle]

Give me a link to your topic so I can steal some ideas as well

I just saw this sorry bud. Here it is. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...re-commenting)

[Zanyuki]

I agree with Auras. Greater Blessings should go, and Auras should be a core mechanic to all Paladins, but their Auras should fit the spec. For example, Retribution Aura for Rets, Devo for Prot, etc.

Your design of Seals are a little too complicated, however. Seals should modify the Judgment it's paired with. For example, Seal of Truth does the regular one (increases damage from your Holy Power spenders), Seal of Righteousness chains to all targets within 10 yards of the target, Seal of Justice reduces movement speed by 50%, and Seal of Light heals you for 50% of all Holy Power spender damage you deal to a Judged target. Seals aren't part of the GCD with a 2-minute duration.

Tier 1 Talents
Final Verdict: Increases damage of all Holy Power spenders by 20%. (TV gets WOD animation)

Improved Judgment: Your Judgments now generate 1 Holy Power.

Consecrated Ground: Prevents anyone from stepping into or out of the area affected by Consecration. Also increases damage of your Consecration by 20%. (Consecration is baseline)


Tier 2 Talents
The Fires of Justice: Unchanged.

Zeal: Increase haste by 15% every time you deal critical damage, stacking up to 3 times.

Greater Blessings (Greater Judgment is removed): Your Blessings now apply to all players of the same class within 40 yards. Blessings' cooldown now modified by haste.


Tier 3 Talents
Fist of Justice: Unchanged.

Repentance: Unchanged.

Pursuit of Justice: Increase your movement speed for every Holy Power you have.


Tier 4 Talents (Blade of Justice applies DOT baseline, but flat 10 second cooldown)
Virtue's Blade: Blade of Justice is now melee range, but reduced cooldown.

Blade of Wrath: Unchanged.

Blade of Light: Blade of Justice has a 30-yard range and 45-second cooldown. Reactivating it while its DOT is active allows you to jump to melee range of the target instantaneously.


Tier 5 Talents
Art of War: everytime you spend Holy Power, there is a chance your next Flash of Light casts in an instant.

Eye for an Eye: Unchanged.

Word of Glory: Heal you for X% of attack power, depending on Holy Power consumed.


Tier 6 Talents
Divine Protection: Protect yourself in a shield that reduces magic damage taken by 50%. (Divine Intervention is now baseline, designed as in Vanilla)

Cavalier: Your Divine Steed is now unaffected by movement-impairing effects. Extends Divine Steed duration by 1 second.

Seal of Light: A Seal that heals you for 50% of all Holy Power spender damage done to a Judged target.


Tier 7 Talents
Divine Purpose: Whenever you take more than 30% of your life in damage, there is a chance to increase your haste by 50% for 10 seconds but the Paladin cannot perform other spells except Holy Power generators and spenders.

Crusade: Empowers your Judgment: reduce its cooldown to 3 seconds, extend its duration by 10 seconds, and gain all the effects of learned Seals for 20 seconds. Replaces Avenging Wrath.

Righteous Vengeance (Holy Wrath now PVP talent): Sacrifices 20% of the Paladin's current health to deal equivalent damage to the enemy.

[Deleted]

This just makes me wanna punch a kitten.

1. Consecration is useless and you want to make it even worse. Not only do we have a debuff limitation with judgment, you want to add a movement limitation to our characters. God, no. Stop making sugestions like this, you will kill the spec.
2. Auras. It's ok to have utility, but we could also have greater blessings be useful. This is ok.
3. Seal. God no! Stop it! Let's add more ramp ups to the spec cause we don't have enough? No!
4. I don't know. I like that the steed is really fast. I just don't like the cooldown.
5. Your sugestion actually makes target swapping worse. Decreasing the uptime of the window will mean having to increase the damage we do during that window wich will obviously lead to inbalance.

The talent sugestions are hit or miss. But the current tree is so bad that virtually anyone can come up with something better.

[Nurvus]

This just makes me wanna punch a kitten.

1. Consecration is useless and you want to make it even worse. Not only do we have a debuff limitation with judgment, you want to add a movement limitation to our characters. God, no. Stop making sugestions like this, you will kill the spec.
2. Auras. It's ok to have utility, but we could also have greater blessings be useful. This is ok.
3. Seal. God no! Stop it! Let's add more ramp ups to the spec cause we don't have enough? No!
4. I don't know. I like that the steed is really fast. I just don't like the cooldown.
5. Your sugestion actually makes target swapping worse. Decreasing the uptime of the window will mean having to increase the damage we do during that window wich will obviously lead to inbalance.

The talent sugestions are hit or miss. But the current tree is so bad that virtually anyone can come up with something better.

1. I don't want us to suck at everything. I want us to be good at something.
So instead of asking for everything, I want to empower what is core to our gameplay.
Paladins have always been territorial. Trying to turn us into a Warrior or a Rogue should not be the goal when improving Paladins.
Consecration reinforces our concept, allows Blizzard to make us more powerful while also allowing opponents to have means to play against us.
We should be a force to be reckoned with while inside holy ground.
If you assume this means I want Paladins to be sitting ducks, perhaps you should read my suggestion properly.
If you found a fundamental flaw in my suggestions, please be less vague so I can improve them.
2. Blessings are passive gameplay. Auras are active gameplay (with Aura Mastery). Out of combat buffs aren't interesting nor fun.
3. My Seals aren't a ramp up - they aren't so different from pressing Crusader Strike to deal damage and gain Holy Power.
In fact, they're better, because you can use them before you reach the target.
This solves certain issues Retribution has always had, while also increasing our skill cap by making good reads in PvP make a tremendous difference.
4. Ok.
5. Target swapping becomes better with my suggestion, because although I increase cooldown on Judgment, the remaining cooldown gets reduced by 5 when a target dies affected by it. And numbers are illustrative. If 5 is not enough, make it 8 or full reset.

Thanks.

[Deleted]

1. I don't want us to suck at everything. I want us to be good at something.
So instead of asking for everything, I want to empower what is core to our gameplay.
Paladins have always been territorial. Trying to turn us into a Warrior or a Rogue should not be the goal when improving Paladins.
Consecration reinforces our concept, allows Blizzard to make us more powerful while also allowing opponents to have means to play against us.
We should be a force to be reckoned with while inside holy ground.
If you assume this means I want Paladins to be sitting ducks, perhaps you should read my suggestion properly.
If you found a fundamental flaw in my suggestions, please be less vague so I can improve them.
2. Blessings are passive gameplay. Auras are active gameplay (with Aura Mastery). Out of combat buffs aren't interesting nor fun.
3. My Seals aren't a ramp up - they aren't so different from pressing Crusader Strike to deal damage and gain Holy Power.
In fact, they're better, because you can use them before you reach the target.
This solves certain issues Retribution has always had, while also increasing our skill cap by making good reads in PvP make a tremendous difference.
4. Ok.
5. Target swapping becomes better with my suggestion, because although I increase cooldown on Judgment, the remaining cooldown gets reduced by 5 when a target dies affected by it. And numbers are illustrative. If 5 is not enough, make it 8 or full reset.

Thanks.

The consecration sugestion is so bad i'm sure Retribution would be unviable just due to having no capability to move without massively hurting your dps. NO ONE would take Ret to raids when no other melee has this kind of limitation. This works somewhat for prot because its a tanking spec. This does not work for a melee damage dealer. It's one of the worst sugestions i have ever heard.

So, you think increasing the cooldown of judgment is a good thing for target swapping? You are only considering target swapping when a mob dies and you are completely nerfing us in the process. Yeah... totally worth it...

It's not better, its worse. In every way.

I'm gonna go post on the official forums before feedback like this destroys this spec. Please stop making these things. You obviously don't understand the impact of your sugestions. I know you may have good intentions, but this does more harm than good.