Was I being "non-pc"

[Azadina]

Sorry, i dont belong to any politcal idealology. If your only argument is calling somebody right wing, well you already lost. I also find it funny youre worried about getting infracted becauee all you pc people do is call other people names instead of having any arguments worth any sort of merit

Your merit was already lost with your original comment. There's nothing further to argue.

[Video Games]

Your merit was already lost with your original comment. There's nothing further to argue.

A spade is a spade? Pretty rational thinking on my part.

[Katchii]

My only response to the situation would be that she's crazy. Regardless of my opinion on the subject, I'll accept transgender people for who they are, my opinion doesn't and shouldn't alter their right to be happy. But a person identifying themselves as a woman, and then screaming at someone for assuming she's a lesbian because she's only into women.... is 1) fucking rude as hell and 2) crazy.

[Mistame]

O.O what is wrong with single mothers as a whole that warrants avoiding them.

Nothing's wrong with them as people. As long as they're taking care of their kids.

The "gender" he/she feels like is irrelevant. When talking about whether someone is gay or not the only thing that matters is the biological sex.

Wrong. "Orientation" is determined by attraction. A trans-woman attracted only to women would technically be a lesbian, regardless of their naughty bits. But then a heterosexual male that dresses like a woman is just a cross-dresser to me. /shrug

I don't see how that's different from if the kids were your own. They come first anyway, unless you don't care about them. But then, someone should never be a parent if that's the case.

To her they should come first. But some other dude's kids aren't anyone else's "priority" except for hers and no one has an obligation to treat someone else's kids as their own, regardless of how they feel about the parent. Personally, I won't even date a woman with kids unless she's able to provide for them herself. I raised mine and I'm over it. /shrug

I feel like this simply might have been the case here.
Maybe she was one of those people who are really picky about it, and thought by referring to her as gay you also implicitly referred to her as a man - despite gay being used as an umbrella term for homosexuality as well. But who knows.

Could be. Not surprising that someone who's clearly confused at how courtesy works also doesn't understand how words work, either.

[Docturphil]

I mean, I don't really care what you think about this, everyone has their opinion... But why is it so hard to understand someone who does something you find strange? Why not just, you know, accept them as a woman if they see themselves as woman, even if you don't see them that way? That's just basic decency.

Of course, some people just want to be jerks, so there is that too. Some will rather say something hurtful, knowing that it will be taken as hurtful, than to demonstrate even a bit of empathy. Or than to educate themselves to understand what this really is about.

Not trying to be a jerk. Just being real. Like I said, if people want to change the way they look, fine. But they need to accept the fact that that's all they're doing. If a guy gets breast implants and starts taking estrogen pills and wants me to refer to him as a "she" I would probably do it just because whatever; I don't really give that much of a fuck. I'll call you a dolphin if you want. But in reality, that doesn't change his physical biology. You're stuck with the gender you're born with. That's just the way it is. No amount of "progression" of society, or "social justice" is going to change biological science. And that is not an opinion.

I feel like society in general has bought into this delusion because most people cannot separate hating trans people from accepting the fact that they're not actually a different gender. I mean it makes sense. Hating people who aren't hurting you in any way is almost always a bad thing, and often people hate others that they disagree with. But just because I don't actually consider a trans person to be the gender that they identify as doesn't mean I hate them.

Now, if we find some way to actually change someone's gender on a genetic level, then fine. THEN you can actually become a different gender. Until then, no. Doesn't really work.

And btw, I'm actually a pretty empathetic person. IRL I would not get into a debate about this with someone who would be hurt by it unless they specifically asked my opinion on the matter. And if they did I would forewarn them that they might not like what I have to say.

[May90]

Not trying to be a jerk. Just being real. Like I said, if people want to change the way they look, fine. But they need to accept the fact that that's all they're doing. If a guy gets breast implants and starts taking estrogen pills and wants me to refer to him as a "she" I would probably do it just because whatever; I don't really give that much of a fuck. I'll call you a dolphin if you want. But in reality, that doesn't change his physical biology. You're stuck with the gender you're born with. That's just the way it is. No amount of "progression" of society, or "social justice" is going to change biological science. And that is not an opinion.

I feel like society in general has bought into this delusion because most people cannot separate hating trans people from accepting the fact that they're not actually a different gender. I mean it makes sense. Hating people who aren't hurting you in any way is almost always a bad thing, and often people hate others that they disagree with. But just because I don't actually consider a trans person to be the gender that they identify as doesn't mean I hate them.

Now, if we find some way to actually change someone's gender on a genetic level, then fine. THEN you can actually become a different gender. Until then, no. Doesn't really work.

And btw, I'm actually a pretty empathetic person. IRL I would not get into a debate about this with someone who would be hurt by it unless they specifically asked my opinion on the matter. And if they did I would forewarn them that they might not like what I have to say.

I think you are confusing sex with gender. Sure, in terms of biological sex, XX is a female and XY is a male, and, yes, until we manage to make changes on such fundamental, we will be stuck with the biological sex we were born in. Gender is a different thing though, entirely... It is more about how the person acts in the society, which role they take. Not just "I put on a dress and now I am a woman", but to the point of actually living it, in all aspects of one's life.

But, again, regardless of whether you agree with it or not, what I suggest is putting yourself mentally into this person's shoes and trying to understand them. That's usually the best way to understand anyone, really: to imagine being them. There is no point to sticking to your personal beliefs when deciding whether someone else is weird or not, since someone else has different beliefs, always.

[Sy]

Not trying to be a jerk. Just being real.

your stance seems very reasonable to me, but i do think you are mixing up two words: sex and gender.

the former is unquestionably a genetic fact that can't really be changed, or at least not with current technology (although there is a very small number of people who are born with phyiscal traits of both sexes). but the later isn't quite as easily defined. a transgender person that changes parts of their body through hormone treatments and possibly surgery doesn't really change physical sex, but the point is to make their body more closely match their mental gender to what degree our technology allows. and as far as modern psychology/medicine can tell, physical sex and mental gender really can be mismatched.

the body of a male-to-female transwoman will (sadly) always genetically stay male, it will never be entirely female. but a person with a male body really can have a female mind, and vice versa. so it makes sense to let these people (after mandatory talks with a qualified professional who has to agree that there really does appear to be an inherent mismatch of sex and gender) change their official gender, and get treatment that allows their bodies to both look and function more closely to what one of matching sex would.

I think you are confusing sex with gender.

looks like i was too slow. ^^

[Docturphil]

I think you are confusing sex with gender. Sure, in terms of biological sex, XX is a female and XY is a male, and, yes, until we manage to make changes on such fundamental, we will be stuck with the biological sex we were born in. Gender is a different thing though, entirely... It is more about how the person acts in the society, which role they take. Not just "I put on a dress and now I am a woman", but to the point of actually living it, in all aspects of one's life.

But, again, regardless of whether you agree with it or not, what I suggest is putting yourself mentally into this person's shoes and trying to understand them. That's usually the best way to understand anyone, really: to imagine being them. There is no point to sticking to your personal beliefs when deciding whether someone else is weird or not, since someone else has different beliefs, always.

OK, I feel like the definition of gender has recently changed. Or maybe I'm just behind. At any rate, yes their sex is what I'm referring to. Seems to me though that the definition of "gender" exists purely for the purposes of trans people; kind of a catch 22 thing really.

I can put myself in most people's shoes, but I feel like it would be very difficult for me to understand a trans person. Mostly because I simply do not share the same feelings that make them trans. I have never had an overwhelming desire to change my gender. But what I am wondering, in all seriousness, is what the difference is between believing you were born as the wrong sex and a delusional mental illness. Honestly, what's the difference? Is it that their belief that they should be a different sex isn't apparently harmful to themselves or others?

[Azadina]

OK, I feel like the definition of gender has recently changed. Or maybe I'm just behind. At any rate, yes their sex is what I'm referring to. Seems to me though that the definition of "gender" exists purely for the purposes of trans people; kind of a catch 22 thing really.

I can put myself in most people's shoes, but I feel like it would be very difficult for me to understand a trans person. Mostly because I simply do not share the same feelings that make them trans. I have never had an overwhelming desire to change my gender. But what I am wondering, in all seriousness, is what the difference is between believing you were born as the wrong sex and a delusional mental illness. Honestly, what's the difference? Is it that their belief that they should be a different sex isn't apparently harmful to themselves or others?

Do you mean to say that you do not feel like you have a gender? Or you are somehow confusing that they don't feel like they have a gender? Both you and them feel they have a distinct gender.

[May90]

looks like i was too slow. ^^

It happens!

OK, I feel like the definition of gender has recently changed. Or maybe I'm just behind. At any rate, yes their sex is what I'm referring to. Seems to me though that the definition of "gender" exists purely for the purposes of trans people; kind of a catch 22 thing really.

I can put myself in most people's shoes, but I feel like it would be very difficult for me to understand a trans person. Mostly because I simply do not share the same feelings that make them trans. I have never had an overwhelming desire to change my gender. But what I am wondering, in all seriousness, is what the difference is between believing you were born as the wrong sex and a delusional mental illness. Honestly, what's the difference? Is it that their belief that they should be a different sex isn't apparently harmful to themselves or others?

Well, we can ask that about anything: what if a person who likes playing piano doesn't actually like playing piano, but has mental illness making them believe they do? If someone wants their gender to not match their sex, then, I say, why not? Whether you agree with them or not, they don't harm anyone by doing that, and they make their lives better by making them closer to what they feel like having.

Ultimately, we are all humans. What does it matter what attributes you find strange a person has? To me, a woman is always a woman, regardless of what body she was born in, or what body she has right now. I don't even see transwomen as transwomen, I see them as women. Then, again, I find both "gender" and "sex" as pretty pointless categories in our everyday lives, so it is not like it is some kind of conscious decision for me.

[I Cannot Fap To That]

She / He / Whatever was just looking for a fight.

[Docturphil]

Do you mean to say that you do not feel like you have a gender? Or you are somehow confusing that they don't feel like they have a gender? Both you and them feel they have a distinct gender.

OK, and again, this whole argument stems from the very definition of "gender", which exists because of people who feel they should be a different sex than what they were born with.

Yes, I have a gender. It matches up with my sex. I have never had the feeling that my gender and sex don't match up. I don't understand the need to make yourself appear like a different sex. What's the difference between men (by sex) who are just very feminine and a trans (m to f) person?

I really don't get it. If someone can explain it to me, great. I like knowledge and understanding.

[Deleted]

Just tell it that you sexually identify as an attack helicopter and if they tell you off you call them heliphobic

Oh and be sure to call it it from now on, see how it likes that

[May90]

Sexual orientation is on a scale; and the scale can movies up and/or down as you age. I think the whole "gay/straight/bi" thing is kind of... I don't want to say dumb... I think a better term is antiquated.

Have sex with who you find attractive, or fall in love with. If you have been with women your whole life, but then found a guy you fell in love/lust with... so what? Have your fun, or get into a relationship, labeling yourself gay, straight or bi just makes the whole thing arbitrary... you might be "gay" in that relationship, but then fall in love with a woman the next time you are single, and never go back to a guy; or you might stay with that guy for the rest of your life.

Fitting one label, or another is still trying to fit some stereotype/concert of that label.

One thing I learned in the last few years is that any generalization is unnecessarily limiting and misleading. So many things we say exclude essential cases. I refrain from using words like "straight", "bisexual", etc., because you never know yourself well enough to be able to establish it with certainty. Even with gradation, how are you to know at which point of the spectrum you are, unless you've gotten close with thousands and thousands of people? It is better to just keep an open mind and give every person you meet a fair chance, I think.

[Sy]

But what I am wondering, in all seriousness, is what the difference is between believing you were born as the wrong sex and a delusional mental illness. Honestly, what's the difference? Is it that their belief that they should be a different sex isn't apparently harmful to themselves or others?

i think the difference that ultimately matters in practise is rather simply how they are treated to improve mental health of the person in question. transgender people very clearly show increased mental health when being allowed to 'transition'. whereas with virtually all mental illnesses, the treatment needs to (however gently and patiently) remove/alleviate the cause and symptoms.

personally, i don't think it even matters if transgenderism (is that the correct word? ^^) is a "mental illness" or not. even if it is, what ultimately matters is how it needs to be approached and treated. if a transgender person is able to function normally in all aspects of life after being allowed to officially transition, and they show a clear improvement in mental stability (less depression, less anxiety, less or no more disgust of their own body, in many cases less or no more suicidal thoughts, etc) then i don't see any reason not to completely accept them as the gender they identify as.

and because some people keep making the same overused joke: no, if a person identifies as an attack helicopter, the right treatment is not to tell them "sure you are" and accept them as such. :D

[May90]

OK, and again, this whole argument stems from the very definition of "gender", which exists because of people who feel they should be a different sex than what they were born with.

Yes, I have a gender. It matches up with my sex. I have never had the feeling that my gender and sex don't match up. I don't understand the need to make yourself appear like a different sex. What's the difference between men (by sex) who are just very feminine and a trans (m to f) person?

I really don't get it. If someone can explain it to me, great. I like knowledge and understanding.

Well, your argument is like this: "I've never been under water. I don't understand the need to scuba-dive every weekend. What is the difference between someone who cycles in their free time, and someone who scuba-dives?" There are different people on this planet, with different needs. This particular case is not something you can explain to someone who hasn't experienced it, so, the best you can do, is to just accept it as a fact.

[Docturphil]

It happens!


Well, we can ask that about anything: what if a person who likes playing piano doesn't actually like playing piano, but has mental illness making them believe they do? If someone wants their gender to not match their sex, then, I say, why not? Whether you agree with them or not, they don't harm anyone by doing that, and they make their lives better by making them closer to what they feel like having.

Ultimately, we are all humans. What does it matter what attributes you find strange a person has? To me, a woman is always a woman, regardless of what body she was born in, or what body she has right now. I don't even see transwomen as transwomen, I see them as women. Then, again, I find both "gender" and "sex" as pretty pointless categories in our everyday lives, so it is not like it is some kind of conscious decision for me.

Sure, at the end of the day, whatever. Variety is the spice of life and all that. I'm not going to say someone shouldn't be trans. It's simply not my place to tell someone that. I guess I just don't understand it.

Also, I don't really follow your logic on the piano analogy, but let's just agree to disagree.

[Mistame]

What is the difference between someone who cycles in their free time, and someone who scuba-dives?

You mean besides the fact that cyclists are generally cunts?

[Jotaux]

Sexual orientation is on a scale; and the scale can move up and/or down as you age. I think the whole "gay/straight/bi" thing is kind of... I don't want to say dumb... I think a better term is antiquated..

I think it is awfully bigoted of you to assume that no one can just be one sexuality.

[Azadina]

OK, and again, this whole argument stems from the very definition of "gender", which exists because of people who feel they should be a different sex than what they were born with.

Yes, I have a gender. It matches up with my sex. I have never had the feeling that my gender and sex don't match up. I don't understand the need to make yourself appear like a different sex. What's the difference between men (by sex) who are just very feminine and a trans (m to f) person?

I really don't get it. If someone can explain it to me, great. I like knowledge and understanding.

Imagine if your gender and sex didn't match? Now you would understand a need. What I personally don't understand, is how does someone not understand something, if they haven't experienced it? The concept is understandable for anyone who wishes to know. One doesn't need to do everything there is in the world, in order to understand whichever subject it's about. One only has to read, or interact with someone like that, to learn. It's rather simple concept really.

As to the following question. The mind. The person in the body. Someone who is male in their mind, is not the same as female. Feminine man who still considers himself a man, is a man just for example. When you interact with someone, which do you actually talk to? Do you talk to the person, or the persons body, if we were to separate them for a moment? (Obviously one can't work without the other.)

Probably isn't all too great of an explanation, but I can't think of anything else on it.