Bloodlet being relegated to Momentum/Nemesis tier in 7.1, replaced by Fel Eruption

[Fossilz]

Nothing is changing talent wise, PTR shows this aswell

[Rawkfist]

Maybe it's a mistranslation of PTR datamining? The tooltip changes say Fel Eruption is being put in the level 102 tier for Vengeance, replacing Gluttony, but currently on live Fel Eruption is already in the level 102 tier for Veng and Gluttony was never a thing as far as I know. Since that's incorrect I wouldn't believe the Bloodlet change until I see something official.

I believe you're correct, there was even a note about how a lot of the mined info is likely just tooltip updating, and as you said, I dont think gluttony was ever a thing that made it into game unless it was early alpha/beta

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Those vengeance DH changes lol. Physical mit is not our problem. One mob throws arcane bolt our way and we melt

Our magic shell has a pretty short cooldown. That being said, Im super glad Im horde with my AoE silence lol.

[Deleted]

Well... Bye.

Fuck Momentum. It's uninteresting and makes no sense, and completely negates having mobility to begin with, because that shit's always on cooldown.

I agree.

Would Bloodlet be able to compete with Momentum if it were doing chaos damage ?

[Xelran]

Well... Bye.

Fuck Momentum. It's uninteresting and makes no sense, and completely negates having mobility to begin with, because that shit's always on cooldown.

Aside from the fact that you would have to use Fel Rush on CD with or without momentum? Atleast with momentum it wasn't Braindead.

[Absintheminded]

Aside from the fact that you would have to use Fel Rush on CD with or without momentum? Atleast with momentum it wasn't Braindead.

Fel Rush doing competitive DPS is another issue IMO. I, personally, would have made enough abilities to use so as to preserve our mobility for actually being mobile when needed.

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I agree.

Would Bloodlet be able to compete with Momentum if it were doing chaos damage ?

I don't really know, but others in this thread have said that it's a very small difference. Someone said 3% I believe. If that's the case I would not at all feel obligated to take Momentum.

[Vincasar]

All the talent info is old. Look at them you will notice that none of it is different. It even says Veng is getting a reduced CD on Soul Carver and we already have that adjusted CD. Stop freaking out about something that isn't happening.

[Schizoide]

If momentum becomes nonviable due to competing with bloodlet I'm probably going to re-roll to a different class.
I guess the whiner got what they wanted in the end.

There's zero chance of it being nonviable.

It's possible it may be non-competitive with Bloodlet, if they put them on the same tier (and there's no actual reason to believe that is happening, although it does make some sense as Bloodlet is VERY powerful) and they tune Momentum lower (which would make no sense, as it's a lot more effort to use).

And even if all the above happens, you'll still be using Fel Rush twice every 20 seconds; you just won't be using Vengeful Retreat on cooldown, being careful not to use FR/VR within 4 seconds of each other, or timing your most powerful abilities inside the Momentum window.

[Bloodwinger]

Say what you want, say it's clunky and negates our mobility, but it's not "unintresting". It can't be. It's probably the most intresting and skillful build there is.

[mitre27]

Say what you want, say it's clunky and negates our mobility, but it's not "unintresting". It can't be. It's probably the most intresting and skillful build there is.

Interesting is purely subjective.

[Haram]

If momentum becomes nonviable due to competing with bloodlet I'm probably going to re-roll to a different class.
I guess the whiner got what they wanted in the end.

Boohoo, Momentum won't be the only choice by a mile for anything other than ST situations. How is talent variability a bad thing again? The 106 tier needs massive work, because as of now, Momentum is literally the only choice when dealing with any encounter with adds, even if they are sporadic and periodic. Hell it even, played perfectly, beats Nemesis on pure ST situations. And don't get me started on how terrible Fel Eruption is. Whoever says it's meant as purely a pvp talent didn't even read the tooltip. If it was purely a PvP designed talent, then why is there the added notion of doing double damage on permanently immune to stun targets (i.e. bosses)?

Blizzard making the 106 tier more variable for different playstyles while still keeping Momentum viable is a great first step. The first row of talents also are in dire need of rebalancing. And Demonic Appetite needs to be useful in some sort of situation at end game. In fact, I found myself, with Momentum, being more efficient questing with either Dblades or Prepared.

[mitre27]

Why is the title making it sound like it's an absolute and not just based on vague most likely incorrect info?

[Anbokr]

Here's the thing, bloodlet probably belongs on that tier, but the single target damage from losing it (or losing momentum/nemesis) is going to be far too much. If they offset moving bloodlet with some targeted buffs to chaos strike/demon's bite, that would be perfectly fine. If they move it and change nothing else, that's a big cleave/aoe nerf (necessary) and also a big single target hit (unnecessary).

We'll see if this is true or not as the PTR develops.

[Shirofune]

Boohoo, Momentum won't be the only choice by a mile for anything other than ST situations. How is talent variability a bad thing again? The 106 tier needs massive work, because as of now, Momentum is literally the only choice when dealing with any encounter with adds, even if they are sporadic and periodic. Hell it even, played perfectly, beats Nemesis on pure ST situations. And don't get me started on how terrible Fel Eruption is. Whoever says it's meant as purely a pvp talent didn't even read the tooltip. If it was purely a PvP designed talent, then why is there the added notion of doing double damage on permanently immune to stun targets (i.e. bosses)?

Blizzard making the 106 tier more variable for different playstyles while still keeping Momentum viable is a great first step. The first row of talents also are in dire need of rebalancing. And Demonic Appetite needs to be useful in some sort of situation at end game. In fact, I found myself, with Momentum, being more efficient questing with either Dblades or Prepared.

Don't start this again. Momentum is the hardest talent to use and requires effective planing to be worth it. It should be better than the other options in the tier IF the way of playing it by the user is the correct one.

If you want alternatives, you have them. Of course, they're not as potent as Momentum because it wouldn't be fair at all. Hell, even Nemesis got buffed up to 20 from 15%, I don't even know why.

Is the same discussion as it was back with Demon Blades vs Prepared.

[Vincasar]

This thread is pointless. All the changes that were datamined were updated tooltips. I went through each one and they correspond with what is on Live currently. They are not moving Bloodlet and Fel Eruption.

Fel Eruption was moved for Veng. Spec before launch to 102.

So let's just drop it because this conversation is Pointless.

[Khiyone]

Well... Bye.

Fuck Momentum. It's uninteresting and makes no sense, and completely negates having mobility to begin with, because that shit's always on cooldown.

You need to use your mobility strategically as a DH; when played correctly you remain mobile while still maintaining optimal Momentum uptime. You do not lose DPS as long as you do not cap Fel Rush charges, so it's entirely fine to hold one charge in reserve for when you do need to dash out of melee. With this and Blur, you can also ensure that VR comes off CD when these mechanics happen as well.

Momentum is by far the most interesting talent in that row and deserves to be well above the other options in all situations, as they are literally spells you cast off CD for a flat DPS increase.

[mitre27]

Don't start this again. Momentum is the hardest talent to use and requires effective planing to be worth it. It should be better than the other options in the tier IF the way of playing it by the user is the correct one.

If you want alternatives, you have them. Of course, they're not as potent as Momentum because it wouldn't be fair at all. Hell, even Nemesis got buffed up to 20 from 15%, I don't even know why.

Is the same discussion as it was back with Demon Blades vs Prepared.

It got buffed so it wasn't as far behind? How is that hard to understand? Nemesis is close on ST and far behind on multi target.

[Haram]

Don't start this again. Momentum is the hardest talent to use and requires effective planing to be worth it. It should be better than the other options in the tier IF the way of playing it by the user is the correct one.

If you want alternatives, you have them. Of course, they're not as potent as Momentum because it wouldn't be fair at all. Hell, even Nemesis got buffed up to 20 from 15%, I don't even know why.

Is the same discussion as it was back with Demon Blades vs Prepared.

Nice strawman. At no point did I say that Momentum should become unviable, and be the worst in that talent tier. What I did say was that Momentum, in any cleave and/or AoE situation, even when played suboptimally will out dps using Nemesis. So no, a talent with a high skill cap shouldn't outweigh other talents by 25+% in AoE situations ever. This isn't about hard talent = best dps. That's fine, but having a massive difference in any AoE situation even when played like absolute shit means there is a clear issue with the talent balancing in any non patchwerk fight.

So to respond to your claim. No you don't have an alternative when it comes to AoE situations in that talent tier. The DPS difference is staggering.

[Raiju]

I'd be interested as to what % you'd say is far, given momentum is one of very few talents that is effectively impossible to play at 99+% on any mechanically active fight - there would always been room for improvement.

[JoshuaNLG]

I'm really confused by the 'datamined 7.1 patch notes' because everything it lists for vengeance.. Is already in-game..? Unless I'm really misreading something.

[Shirofune]

Nice strawman. At no point did I say that Momentum should become unviable, and be the worst in that talent tier. What I did say was that Momentum, in any cleave and/or AoE situation, even when played suboptimally will out dps using Nemesis. So no, a talent with a high skill cap shouldn't outweigh other talents by 25+% in AoE situations ever. This isn't about hard talent = best dps. That's fine, but having a massive difference in any AoE situation even when played like absolute shit means there is a clear issue with the talent balancing in any non patchwerk fight.

So to respond to your claim. No you don't have an alternative when it comes to AoE situations in that talent tier. The DPS difference is staggering.

If you're not Fel Rushing as a DH, you're playing the class wrong. Even though I agree the 20% damage from Momentum helps, if you're not using Nemesis in an AoE scenario either, its obvious you're losing damage, and you shouldn't say its 25% DPS loss, because it is your fault for not using the talent.

You can't expect to compare a talent that is up when the user wants to something that you've to press for it to work.

Of course, it's different and you've to kill the main target first, but 25% DPS difference is just a lie if you play Nemesis right, that's it, killing the main target or using it in a low HP mob of the same school and doing the same AoE rotation the Momentum build does. It probably would do even more DPS if the all of the mobs are of the same race, lol.