Our mastery weight should be buffed

[Nestalim]

I can't stand how that stat which is obviously designed to be our secondary best as such a weak stat weight.

Really, I think it needs a buff.

[Raikh]

It really doesn't need a buff. It does provide movement speed in addition to damage, so its natural that it hasn't the same raw power as a stat that provides only damage. Its also decent when using Chaos blades for ST, still not the best but close enough that only ilvl should matter.

I also don't see how its obviously designed to be our best sec stat. Far from, the movement speed implies that it probably won't hold against the over stats. Besides we have a crit refund mechanic which is far more of an indicator what our bets secondary stat is supposed to be design wise.

[Goldenboy1]

I can't stand how that stat which is obviously designed to be our secondary best as such a weak stat weight.

Really, I think it needs a buff.

Well Mastery in itself is more important for Havoc than people give it credit for. I personally believe the weight order should be Crit> Mastery = versatility> Haste. This is due to the Chaos Blades talent and its mastery scaling. Versatility is slightly more important simply because its damage bonus is applied to non chaos damage as well however, Mastery has no place being underneath Haste. Also, the increased movement speed is welcomed in order to fix mistakes while using Momentum. A buff would be nice if only to increase the point to Mastery percentage increased ratio.

[Shirofune]

Well Mastery in itself is more important for Havoc than people give it credit for. I personally believe the weight order should be Crit> Mastery = versatility> Haste. This is due to the Chaos Blades talent and its mastery scaling. Versatility is slightly more important simply because its damage bonus is applied to non chaos damage as well however, Mastery has no place being underneath Haste. Also, the increased movement speed is welcomed in order to fix mistakes while using Momentum. A buff would be nice if only to increase the point to Mastery percentage increased ratio.

CB beneficts more from haste (more AAs) than Mastery. Its a 12 seconds CD that even if it boosts all damage you do, where the bunch of damage comes from is AAs.

[Baelroc]

Well Mastery in itself is more important for Havoc than people give it credit for. I personally believe the weight order should be Crit> Mastery = versatility> Haste. This is due to the Chaos Blades talent and its mastery scaling. Versatility is slightly more important simply because its damage bonus is applied to non chaos damage as well however, Mastery has no place being underneath Haste. Also, the increased movement speed is welcomed in order to fix mistakes while using Momentum. A buff would be nice if only to increase the point to Mastery percentage increased ratio.

Mastery is by and far our worst stat. This has been shown in numerous sims.

[Goldenboy1]

Mastery is by and far our worst stat. This has been shown in numerous sims.

I know its the worst in simulators but honesty just test it out in real applications. Currently I am able to combo Momentum and Chaos Blades together for 51% increased damage for 12 seconds, if momentum is maintained properly. If you are in demon form on top of this the damage is scary. I have been hitting nearly one million annihilation at 842 item level.

[Baelroc]

I know its the worst in simulators but honesty just test it out in real applications. Currently I am able to combo Momentum and Chaos Blades together for 51% increased damage for 12 seconds, if momentum is maintained properly. If you are in demon form on top of this the damage is scary. I have been hitting nearly one million annihilation at 842 item level.

Although sims are not the end all be all, they are very good at what they are intended to do: tell us what stats are good in what scenarios. Just because you "feel" like you are doing alot of burst damage stacking mastery doesn't change the fact that Mastery is simply bad for us in situations that matter.

[Raikh]

While Chaos blades are active our stat priority is reversed. So mastery > haste > vers > crit. The lower the uptime of Chaos blade is the more this normalizes into the normal stat priority we have.
Since CHaos blades uptime is low by nature the impact is not big enough to gear for mastery or haste. If your goal was to gear for maximum ST burst mastery would be a good choice but in reality you won't really need that at all and since mastery remains quite weak for cleave and AoE it isn't really a good idea to stack it.

I personally like to have a bit of mastery (15-20% are fine with me) simply for the movement speed and to make Chaos blades actually worth using, since the difference to fel barrage can become somewhat negligible if you have low mastery and haste, but you really should never view it as a major dps stat unless ST burst becomes a trend.

[Goldenboy1]

Although sims are not the end all be all, they are very good at what they are intended to do: tell us what stats are good in what scenarios. Just because you "feel" like you are doing alot of burst damage stacking mastery doesn't change the fact that Mastery is simply bad for us in situations that matter.

I "feel" that way because I no longer follow simulators. In Warlords of Dreanor I outperformed simulators which used the accepted "bis" gear. I agree that Crit is much more important and Versatility is slightly more important. However, I completely disagree with Mastery sitting at the bottom of the totem pole is my one argument.

[Dimzum]

I "feel" that way because I no longer follow simulators. In Warlords of Dreanor I outperformed simulators which used the accepted "bis" gear. I agree that Crit is much more important and Versatility is slightly more important. However, I completely disagree with Mastery sitting at the bottom of the totem pole is my one argument.

Math does not work based on feelings. People do test these numbers out in the game, and guess what? They match the simulators almost 1 for 1. Your anecdote about how you "feel" mastery is giving you better performance is biased.

As it is, Mastery is out worst stat and will remain that way.

[Nestalim]

The fact is mastery imo supposed to be our second best stat is how well it synergized with the class.

The +MS is welcomed in a Momentum build as you try to min the time where you can't auto attack. Also, Chaos Damage is SUPPOSED to be our best source of damage, but due to how Bloodlet is broken, it's definitively not the case.

And I don't think that Bloodlet will change to chaos damage, so I think the weight should be increased.

[Goldenboy1]

Math does not work based on feelings. People do test these numbers out in the game, and guess what? They match the simulators almost 1 for 1. Your anecdote about how you "feel" mastery is giving you better performance is biased.

As it is, Mastery is out worst stat and will remain that way.

I was not the one who said feel, someone else replied with it so I continued why I "feel" that way. When it comes down to it Simulators do not account for global cool downs used for survival. This also neglects movement as well as add placement by your tanks. I test numbers against simulators in real environments and almost always the simulators are a tad bit off as I shared with my Warlord anecdote. Of all Paladins, I was ranked in the top 92% according to logs. I was at 727 item level and only lost to the 740 ilvs by roughly 15k damage a fight. I disagree with simulators because of how encounters work. All I have stated was that I believe Mastery is more important than Haste. No need to get overly aggressive.

[chooi]

Sometimes I just wish that feelycrafting was a bannable offense on these forums...

[Dimzum]

[QUOTE=Goldenboy1;42360783When it comes down to it Simulators do not account for global cool downs used for survival. This also neglects movement as well as add placement by your tanks. [/quote]
There are options to simulate add fights, light movement, heavy movement etc. You argument that simulators do not account for "real environment" doesn't really hold up.

I test numbers against simulators in real environments and almost always the simulators are a tad bit off as I shared with my Warlord anecdote. Of all Paladins, I was ranked in the top 92% according to logs. I was at 727 item level and only lost to the 740 ilvs by roughly 15k damage a fight. I disagree with simulators because of how encounters work. All I have stated was that I believe Mastery is more important than Haste. No need to get overly aggressive.

Your ranking means little. The fact is, much theorycrafting, math and research has gone into the simulators. It's been check and reviewed and holds up. Yes their are bugs from time to time, but that doesn't change the fact it is MATH.

Your beliefs don't change what has been proven mathematically.

Sometimes I just wish that feelycrafting was a bannable offense on these forums...

Agreed. It's one thing to come up with a crazy idea that hasn't been looked at before and say "Hey guys, I think/feel this might be worth looking into" and to just say "The sims are wrong, Mastery is not our worst stat"

[Ribesal]

CB beneficts more from haste (more AAs) than Mastery. Its a 12 seconds CD that even if it boosts all damage you do, where the bunch of damage comes from is AAs.

Is our mastery deactivated during CB?
Otherwise i can't see why this should be true

Let's assume we have 8% base + 0% extra Mastery, and 27% Haste,
This means for auto attacks:
100% (base dmg) * 3 (200% increased dmg) * 1,08 (8% overall increase of CB) * 1,08 (8% Mastery since AAs now deal chaos dmg) * 1,27 (Haste) --> 444,3984%
(411,48% without normal mastery effect)

now 8% base + 25% extra Mstery and 0% Haste
100% (base dmg) * 3 (200% increased dmg) * 1,33 (8% + 25% overall increase of CB) * 1,33 (8% + 25% Mastery since AAs now deal chaos dmg) --> 530,67% (399% without normal mastery effect)

(bypassing armor can be ignored here, since it is the same multiplicator in both calculations)

If there are flaws in this calculation feel free to correct me

[Dimzum]

I think people are not understanding why mastery is bad.

The Mastery itself is fine. The problem is the scaling of mastery isn't as good as haste. It takes more mastery rating to get 1% mastery than it does 1% haste. It has better scaling than vers, but doesn't affect nearly the same amount of damage.

I can't remember the exact numbers so I am going by my armory.
1972 mastery = 5.63% additional mastery (on top of the default 8%) that's 350 rating per 1%
3148 Haste = 9.68% 325 rating per 1% (also GCD reduction and CD reduction for Blade Dance and Throw Glaive)
9011 Crit = 25.75% 350 rating per 1% (but you get the fury return for crit)
3486 Vers = 8.54% 408 rating per 1%

So it takes Vers 50 more rating per 1%, but you affect all damage, and considering Throw Glaive, bloodlet, demon's bite and AA are all physical, the buff is more noticeable.

[Jhos]

For the ones sustaining mastery over haste don't forget that the istance bosses are up for a minute or so and we are in meta for 30sec and in CB for 12 (if we have the talent).It is all about "burst".

[Gradingus]

I feel like they could buff it if the increase to Chaos damage was higher than the increase to movement speed. Otherwise, you'd just move way too fast

Also, Versatility is a really boring stat

[Jhos]

I don't understand people who claim versa as a boring stat when our mastery is pretty much the same only for chaos damage.I'd say that the only "fun" stat is haste that reduces global cd and some abilities' cd.

[Deleted]

i think mastery should increase the procc rate of artifact procc inner demons for us, that would make mastery a lot better and solve this issue.