7.1 spoilers "An Elven Problem"

[Mace]

Weirdly enough they used normal Night Elves in three different zones in the same expansion. Something tells me that if they wanted Nightborne to be Night Elves they'd continue that trend. And, you know, they wouldn't write the lore about them being changed from Night Elves into something else.

They do this all the time, you see the gnomes and also the mechagnomes, being the night elf expansion, you are shown various aspects and diverse groups of night elves, not just the Kal'dorei. You are shown ghosts, you are shown nightborne, you are shown highborne, you are shown moon guard, it's like a massive glut of night elven lore.

are you denying they are showing a night elven city too, and night elven culture in Suramar too. What else is anyone else going to conclude. Who cares whether they believe themselves to be night elves or the gold and stardust cut above everything else - we are going by what we see are we not?

And yet they didn't use Night Elf models. Instead they decided to make things so interesting and varied that they also included them becoming something else than Kaldorei in the story. As for the ancient Night Elven empire, it went up and died after WotA. The Nightborne are no more of an ancient Night Elven empire than the Shen'dralar. They've got one Night Elven city each. And unlike the Shen'dralar, aren't Night Elves no matter how many times you try to deny it. Dath'remar's people were part of the Night Elven empire too. They stopped being Night Elven or part of any empire when they were banished. Naga were the apotheosis of Night Elven empire and still claim it as per Vashj's raid intro text. Doesn't make them Night Elves. Because Old Gods changed them from Night Elves. Nightwell changed the Nightborne.

I think this is where we disagree. But you are sort of right, and wrong. It's one way of looking at it. This is what remains of the Night elven empire, the last of the original Nigiht elven civilization in its full. It's the developeres themselves that share this information at Gamescom and a number of interviews given on this, what else are we to think? Ravenmoon said it correctly, Ancient Night Elf is now called Nightborne. You refer to it as Nightborne in the present but Night elven when speaking in the past. It doesn't remove the night elvenness it just defines Nightborne.

I think you will find the developers disagree with you there:


this was in the Suramar Overview:

Not the same as Highmountain since they are just normal Taurens blessed by Cenarius a bit, but yes, Taunka and Yaungol comparison is spot on. And just like when ravenmoon uses it, it works against your argument. Yaungol are no longer Tauren. Taunka are no longer Tauren. They are different races. Just like Nightborne are a different to Night Elves. As per Blizzard's admission. Different group of Kaldorei my ass.

You're right there, but in fairness, I don't think I've heard him say they are different group of Kal'dorei, just night elf that are not Kal'dorei - I think that has been the main jist.

When you want to think of Arcane Night Elf you have Shen'dralar and their normal Night Elven students. Because they are Night Elves. Nightborne are not. For centuries. I mean, there's nothing stopping you from thinking about Nightborne when you think Arcane Night Elf, but there's also nothing you from thinking about naked Kobolds when you hear that. Both are wrong.

I don't think you can stop people thinking what they want to think any more than they can stop you. I think the overwhelming point is that arcane night elves of the original night elven empire vein are called Nightborne, this is both a race and a type of night elf. If you don't describe them as very very night based elves (or night elves) what would you describe them as? Remember night elf is been used as a description not an identification or name of one specific group.

They said they wanted to show part of Night Elven culture that was lost after WotA. They didn't say they want to show Night Elves. Culture does not make a race.

then good heavens man, what are you arguing about if you clearly understand this night elven culture and this night based group, that clearly aren't Kal'dorei but are very much elves of the night or night based elves - you're saying exactly the same things. Just each one preferring to say it his own way perhaps? I'll leave you to it, it really isn't my argument.

Call them what you want, but they are Nightborne, that is their identity, and their decription is night elven.

[ravenmoon]

Hey Mehrune:

I call truce, listen, I'm a nightborne man now, I love the people, this is what I wanted the night elves to go back to since the start, but instead what blizzard has done is make that part of the Kal'dorei civilizaiton a separate group, it is everything about the night elves I like. And I echo that it is even more night than I'm shown.

I still like the Night Elves, I like the High Elves too, and I like the Blood elves too, but Nightborne is what I wanted. The moon, the stars symbology, and I'm glad Night Elves will play a large part of the Nightborne group, cos I'd role play my Night Elf druid/mage as that, and switch it to Nightborne when/if it becomes available. Even if it doesn't or night elves and nightborne end up fighting like the night elves and highborne did, I would still like both groups, like I like the Sin'dorei , the Quel'dorei and the Kal'dorei, but the Shal'dorei will be my group.

I can't help but see all the Night elvenness that they retain, what I like about night elvennes? The night, the moon, the stars, the magic and the wonder, I appreciated the forest but the advanced dty culture and civilization is what got me into the vigil group anyway to begin with..that this is where the high elves came from - it wasn't the alliance, which is why I will never say they are an entirely different group with no night elvenness in them (if that's what you are saying), the animations, the mannerisms, the symbols the works, as I said all the things I read about the Night elves in WotA that I liked and longed to see. I'm glad they did that.. you can't take away the night from the nightborne - it's in the name, and I for one have always been glad that blizzard did a different model for this unique and particular arcane night elf group - that is supposed to show the distinction and height of the night elven empire, it is fitting they have an altered model even though the story is quite sad.

Anyway, just saying I'm no longer going to respond hostile to you, or respond on the issue of their night elvenness, we all play and we all can see Suramar, we all see the models, we all see the night theme, we all see the Kal'dorei arcane civilization and culture shown, we all acknowledge it is a different thing from the current Kal'dorei who are druidic based, and I'm fine with it as it is, however you may think to call it. I like it.

So let's not sour every topic with a disagreement on such detail, over a fantasy. Peace out man. Shalom

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SAALVAAATIOOOON

RAWWWWWWWWWWWRRRRRRRRRRR


What's not to like about this:





You can like the nightborne and hate the Kal'dorei night elves if you are horde, because they bypass the faction bias between Kal'dorei and Sin'dorei, at least at this point in time (as they may team up with the Night elves later, or not), and are two separate peoples, whether they make friends like Darkspears and Raventusk forest trolls did or enemies like Darkspears and Zandalari did they are quite maazing, loving the quest storyline.

Look at that arcane armor, and I love the barefootedness, as the ancient feel to it, capturing in essence what I hoped the Night elves would become again. Still, I do like the original night elves too, their models are also amazing. you can see my nightborne doing the michael jackson nelven male dance - I'm glad they included that, it continues to highlight they really don't change the old phobes, which is what makes Tyrande's group quite extraorindary, night elves stick to their ways for a long long time



I'm so switching my NElf or BElf mains to Nightborne if they become playable, no matter what faction.

[Magnagarde]

The nightborne are night elves(kaldorei), deprived of the sky and addicted to the magic of their well, which lead to their physical change. The same can be observed with the high elves of Quel'thalas whose appearance changed once they they got banished. That being said, each single variant of elf there is represents a descendant race of the ancient kaldorei civilization.

[Deleted]

I am super pro Night Elf. I just love all the other Elves as well. Though I feel the High Elves (basically the Silver Covenant) are holding the Njght Elves back from taking the full stage here which is kind of sad. They feel really out of place now and are just sticking around for Vareesa at this point and presumably just until Alleria comes back then they can happily kill her off. They are holding onto the past Alliance. Golden should have had Sylvanas kill her off would have been a decent ending for the character in War Crimes.

Nightborne are pretty weird to me though they feel very redundant. I sort of get it but not sure it was necessary for them to create them or tell this story. Not sure we needed another group of elves. Though it's kind of weird that Night Elves haven't changed appearance by being tied to a tree for 10000 years. Probably would make them go green going by other Elves. I guess Druid antlers could count and Malfurion's weird mutations.

A lot of the problem with Elves stem from the transition from WC3 to WoW and also Knaak. I think this is looking much better than Night Elves have been in a while (Maiev and Jarod at Ravenhold being the best we've seen since WC3 Imo) it's not quite perfect but they have been so poorly written for years that fixing them could take a while and I'm willing to take any improvement frankly.

[Rhlor]

Eh, she has lots of experience losing wars, then waking up Malfurion to win the war for her. In the War of the Ancients, she was a glorified cheerleader. A damsel in distress to be saved by male characters. War of the Satyr was going badly, she woke up Malfurion and the druids, who then won the war. War of the Shifting Sands was going badly, with C'thun's minions spreading all the way up to Ashenvale, then Fandral got the help of the dragonflights to win. I guess Tyrande sat that one out for some reason?

Then the orcs invaded, and Tyrande's forces lost miserably against them, losing Cenarius, of all things. Can't beat a bunch of flesh and blood orcs, even when you can wave a hand to make the forest of huge trees come to life and crush them all to death?

Then the Legion came in force, and they lost. Then she woke up Malfurion, who convinced her to quit being such a raging racist and work with the Alliance and Horde, and they still lost against the Legion, but lasted long enough to buy Malfurion the time he needed to save the day.

Then Tyrande and Malfurion joined Maiev's hunt for Illidan, and Tyrande stood on what must have been a very decrepit old bridge, shooting at the pursuing Scourge, rather than, say, standing safely on the other side of the bridge and firing at them when they got a little closer, and she fell into the river when it collapsed, then was saved by Illidan.

Then in Wolfheart, she led the army that fought against the invading Horde. She did okay at first, using Elune's light to blind the Horde and dissipate their artificial fog of war Garrosh was using to impede the Alliance, but revealed herself immediately, and Garrosh had everyone target her, and she almost died. So she was about to lose. Then Varian, the worgen, and Malfurion saved the day.

Then in MoP, she was about to charge into the Red Crane Temple, which would have resulted in major Alliance casualties. That was only avoided because Varian is apparently a master tactician while she is not.

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The only thing I'd be afraid of is that they'd make a Blood Elf mage actually say stuff, and the things they'd say would be in line with Aethas' thinking that the Sunreavers are all to blame and the Kirin Tor are right, and that the Blood Elves should be on their knees licking the Kirin Tor's boots just to be allowed the chance to ask if they can live in Dalaran again.

That's not the Blood Elf mage I'd want to be. I'd want to be the Rommath type, who actually has an ounce of pride in his nation and people.

for something Rommath is the grand magister and Aethas is just a young boy

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just because SoO was orc climax with garry and the kor'krons, doesn't mean its a "orc expansion"

also, WoD did not give orcs an exclusive class, neither give the orcs a new one

5.3 was to kill orcs

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Indeed Rhlor, and thanks for the share. Ofc he will, all Elves are related, the Kal'dorei when they emerged in WC3, were their long lost kin, Farondis explains to you Azsuna that the nightborne are their long lost kin, he actually states that, although in this dialog Rommath doesn't, but he doesn't need to, the history is clear.


ofc he is talking about the loyalists currently carrying out the Legion's plan, not the Nightborne resistance.

And notice how Rommath states that "we forged our own destiny", which is why I often point out to people that there is no longer anything Night elven of the blood elves, but I only mean that with respect to what is clearly identifiable as night elven wrt culturally tied or still within the same "night-group" bracket, which they are not, but they are still Elven, an off shoot from the original Night elven Empire, while the Shal'dorei are that original Night elven empire, and the current kal'dorei alliance group had deviated from it.

But without a doubt all Elves are from Night elf, and are still tied together, they have more similarities than differences, they are just alternative cultures .. i.e. Night Elven empire has several diverging cultures of which both the high elves and blood elves are counted as, as they are the Zin'Azshari highborne descendants. Only the Shal'dorei and the Shen'dralar Highborne (in diminished capacity) continue in the Night Elven empire vein.

Oh, and you might find it useful to know that the Highborne themselves, whether High Examiner Tae'thelan Bloodwatcher is referring to the Court of Farondis or the Shen'dralar, "have forgotten more than you or I will ever know" as he seeks to uncover highborne relics - is an interesting statement, which implies the highborne though they remain are not at the pre-sundering level they were at, the level the Nightborne are/have continued on from/at. Not sure how much Tae'thelan knows about what the Highborne know, but it's interesting to know. I can link the quest box, but you only need do Archaeology and interact with Tae'thelan when he is in Azsuna.

Tae'thelan should know many things of the past. all that is happening is very exciting. The dream is becoming reality, the Illidari were beginning

[Katchii]

Nightborne are to Night Elves what Night Elves are to the Ancient Trolls...and Trolls are the precursors to every Elven civilization on Azeroth.

If I am remembering my "Azeroth evolution" correctly it's something like this:

Trolls + Well of the Ancients = Night Elves; Night Elves - Well = High Elves; High Elves + Sunwell = Blood Elves. Night Elves + Nightwell = Nightborne. The only one I'm fuzzy on is High Elves because that's what the civilization in Suramar called themselves during Queen Azsharas reign and is the faction that mostly ended up turning into Naga.

Sound about right? Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm working off memory here as I don't have time currently to wade through all the Lore text about this on WoWpedia again.... there's a LOT.

[Rhlor]

Using someone who's been a ghost since before Nightborne created their shield and thanks to his subjects being dicks about the ghostening had to relieve that time period for 10k years and still uses the goddamn past tense when referring to the Nightborne anyway does nothing for your argument. And not just past tense, he only used the word kin (nothing about being long-lost as your own picture shows though). The word kin was used by Rommath in the 7.1 quests discussed here in reference to a connection between Blood Elves and Nightborne. Unless you want to make a 180 degree turn and argue that Blood Elves are still Night Elves after all and are also Nightborne as well, you've got nothing.

elves are elves, they are all kin

[ravenmoon]

Nightborne are to Night Elves what Night Elves are to the Ancient Trolls...and Trolls are the precursors to every Elven civilization on Azeroth.

If I am remembering my "Azeroth evolution" correctly it's something like this:

Trolls + Well of the Ancients = Night Elves; Night Elves - Well = High Elves; High Elves + Sunwell = Blood Elves. Night Elves + Nightwell = Nightborne. The only one I'm fuzzy on is High Elves because that's what the civilization in Suramar called themselves during Queen Azsharas reign and is the faction that mostly ended up turning into Naga.

Sound about right? Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm working off memory here as I don't have time currently to wade through all the Lore text about this on WoWpedia again.... there's a LOT.

that is a bit misleading as trolls to night elves was a change in species.. whereas night elf to blood elf are still elven, and night elf to nightborne you see nightborne are even more night elven now than night elves. - still the same species etc. nightborne are to night elves what say Darkspears are to Raventusk, and night elf are to blood elf what Zandalari are to Drakkari.. more like that

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elves are elves, they are all kin

Amen ! Period!

[Aucald]

High Elves + Fel energy = Blood Elves would be more correct, and High Elves + a crapload of Fel energy = Shadowsworn Elves (the ones with the beginnings of wings, black/red flesh, and exposed veins of Fel all over them). The Kal'dorei essentially split into what are now four distinct factions following the War of the Ancients. The Night Elves who followed Malfurion and the Druids retained the name Kal'dorei and eschewed their legacy of the Arcane in exchange for Druidism and Light-based power. The Highborne most loyal to Azshara who were caught up in the influence of the Old Gods and went on to become the Naga. The Highborne who rebelled against Azshara and remained with Malfurion's people, who would eventually go on to be exiled from Mt. Hyjal and voyage to the Eastern Kingdoms to become the Quel'dorei or High Elves. And now finally the Highborne who did not follow Azshara but also didn't actively rebel or assist Malfurion and Tyrande but instead shielded the city of Suramar from the Burning Legion and remained there for thousands of years. Changed by their creation of a the Nightwell into a new group, the Shal'dorei.

There's also another smaller group that you could possibly consider still of Elvish extraction: the Fal'dorei who dwell in the northern area of Suramar. Mutated by a failed Arcan'dor into spider-like beings, but retaining at least some semblance of intelligence.

[Rhlor]

Old Empire were trolls... just say'n :P

Trolls did not have a unified empire were various empires

[Katchii]

that is a bit misleading as trolls to night elves was a change in species.. whereas night elf to blood elf are still elven, and night elf to nightborne you see nightborne are even more night elven now than night elves. - still the same species etc. nightborne are to night elves what say Darkspears are to Raventusk, and night elf are to blood elf what Zandalari are to Drakkari.. more like that

Biologically speaking, just because they're all "Elves" does not make them the same species. Not all cats are the same species, but they are all cats. My point about Trolls was that Night elves evolved from trolls the same way that Nightborne evolved from Night Elves. The evolution may be a lot more subtle, it is still a change in physiology

Also, @Rhlor

Trolls did not have a unified empire were various empires

The Zandalari tribe is the precursor to all other troll tribes, so at one point the trolls did have a unified empire.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Zandalar_tribe

[Aeula]

Why do people get so damn worked up over lore Jesus. It's a virtual storybook not politics.

People are passionate about something they enjoy. That's not a bad thing.

[Shampro]

You forgot to mention Aggra.

I can't add her to one way or the other when she has done literally nothing. They seriously need to use her in a way that doesn't involve purely supporting Thrall, hell, shes hanging out in the Class hall but isn't involved in quests. I guess the assault on Grommashar is something...

[Rhlor]

Looks like I've missed out on a lot of new stuff showing up in 7.1, but this is really exciting... I hoped they would see the potential in Suramar being a lot more than just another notch in the belt of the Alliance faction or waste away idle in neutrality having only being relevant for a campaign and fade to insignificance afterwards. It had the potential to at least give back Warcraft's 3rd massive group, the elves, it's own identity independent of horde or alliance. Something that WC3 started to do with the night elves but oops.

Still, I'm glad of this, you can still have night elves on the alliance and blood elves working in the horde and still have an independent Elven nation or Kingdom/Empire operating doing the thigns the Elves should have been doing, fighting the world threats like the Legion, the old gods and brining their wayward former Queen to justice. It was so disappointing to see the Night elves sink to the level of far younger races and join in the squabbles, where I expected or hoped that the High elves would rise to that state, above the faction conflict.

Still it has been a very interesting story, as we have witnessed the elves at their lowest point ever, needing the help of humans and orcs to survive, and now perhaps it is time they really remember who they are and start being the powerful force for good they have recently been unable to rise up to - being thoroughly beaten down. First we see the Blood elves recover from near ashes, gotten their sunwell back, their cities and lands back, crazy period over, - now strengthening. and now perhaps we have a chance to see the Night Elves recover from a long long period of shame and withdrawal, compounded after losing their immortality and much vitality from Nordrassil in the 2nd invasion they gave so selflessly of themselves. They've been in an even greater depression since. Now Suramar, the Legion and Illidan arrive to really join all the Elven groups together in working together.

Suramar would be Night elf dominant ofc, it is to be expected, I mean it is THE Night elven city behind the Kal'dorei with its symbology, etc all over, Nightwell the opposite to the Sunwell etc, night vs day themes Moon&stars vs Sun, that's fine, it is what it is, it can be night elf dominant and still be inclusive of blood elves and allied with the Quel'dorei who would prefer brighter habitations. An empire can have varying cultures and people groups within it, it can have the druidic Night Elves, the light bearing High/Blood Elves and the original Nightborne whatever their eventual state would be - for I do not know if the Arcan'dor or cleansing of the Nightwell will revert their forms to their night elven state. Whether they will end up looking like Night elves again or remain Nightborne is irrelevant (I hope they remain nightborne cos it's nice to have something different) they can still operate in that capacity of uniters of the Elves. This is what I expected the Highborne of Eldre'thalas to have done, and before that I had hoped for Illidan or the Night elves themselves to try to do this. Maybe 3rd time lucky?
@Mehrunes

This is the ancient Night Elven empire, the group are called the Shal'dorei in the present, and the Night Elves in the past, but it is the same people. Blizzard would have used Night elven models here and they would still be a different group to the Kal'dorei, and they didn't because they like making things interesting and giving variations. They always do this - rather than give you teh same old Tauren you're use to seeing they alter it slightly and give you Taunka, give you Yaungol or Highmountain - they do this time after time, it's not different here. They've given you a modification of the night elf here instead of the normal night elf model too. The primary reason is their design philisophy of variation, always give new things, and so they keep creating new assets. Makes their new expansion feel a lot more fresh if they modify the racial representatives and their art and bestiary rather than give you the same ol'night elf, the same sabers, the same bestiary you've got before.

It also makes it easy to distinguish between the groups - they don't always do it, but they often do, and I like this.. now when you want to think of arcane night elf or the original Night elf empire in today's term, you have the Nightborne - you don't need to call them Night elves, you can call them Nightborne. You never see the Highborne called or calling themselves night elves - even though they are, same with the Taunka calling themselves Tauren, it never happens even though someone might mention the link. It's an identity thing, it's cool, gives players new eye candy, and helps separate the groups.

Also think about it, if you were planning to re-creat a united Elven group, even if that wasn't the original intention - as I suspect the intention of Suramar was to show what Night Elven civilization looks like in its prime, if it survived all this time and had continued advancing in magic. I mean this is from the horses mouse (i.e. from Blizzard themselves), no harm in taking it further, because this original Night Elven state is where all the other groups come from, the Vigil group that changed their culture, the High Elves that created their own day/sun based version of it, the Shen'daralar that continued on it in a City they let fall to ruin, and back to the Nightborne who alone remain intact.

Back to Topic:
Suramar return has the capacity to end all Elven conflict, because it survived. The Night Elves thought they lost everything, not had the courage to rebuild, but they didn't, the Legion also returned, and this is the source of all the division. It was because of the very legion and thinking all, especially Suramar (where most of them came from ) lost is why the Night elves go into a 10k year long self-imposed isolation without using magic, imprison Illidan and kick out many of their brethren. It is why the High Elves keep to themselves, and never expanded past Quel'thalas, and ofc the hurt for the original exile. The reason they are all in that state. And Suramar really brings a hope for a new beginning. Seeing what things could be like... you can imagine the night elves after so much time may have forgotten quite how amazing the stuff they did was, and that it wasn't all corrupted and evil either, what a reminder..what about the newer born ones who never saw it, he never saw the heights their people reached to, - the emotions. The usage of arcane was the feud between kal'dorei and quel'dorei - what a reconciliation can result.

Sure not everyone may want to, but you wouldn't be surprised if many of them choose to be a part of this. The broken Isles night elves (kal and shal'dorei) would be the permanent residents of the city and it's surrouding zones, but the others returning to Darnassus, Dalaran, Eldre'thalas or Silvermoon would continue to be associated or affliated with it, although there would be some amongst both groups who would have nothing to do with it. Such is the nature of things. In time who knows.. they may all unite, or maybe not, tha'ts what makes a story engaging no?

a moon guard gets along with the blood elves magi and want to visit quelthalas. FINALLY I THINK WE WILL SEE THE ELVES UNITED



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Biologically speaking, just because they're all "Elves" does not make them the same species. Not all cats are the same species, but they are all cats. My point about Trolls was that Night elves evolved from trolls the same way that Nightborne evolved from Night Elves. The evolution may be a lot more subtle, it is still a change in physiology

Also, @Rhlor



The Zandalari tribe is the precursor to all other troll tribes, so at one point the trolls did have a unified empire.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Zandalar_tribe

they never had a unified empire, which had various empires allies were under the leadership of the Zandalari.

[Aucald]

a moon guard gets along with the blood elves magi and want to visit quelthalas. FINALLY I THINK WE WILL SEE THE ELVES UNITED

I don't think a single example necessarily foretells a unity between the Elvish societies (who have thousands of years of separation and in some cases enmity to overcome) - but the Nightborne revolution at least plants the seeds of a needed reconciliation.

[Katchii]

they never had a unified empire, which had various empires allies were under the leadership of the Zandalari.

Thanks for that. I don't have chronicles, and a lot of what is stated in WoWpedia is not entirely accurate or in the wrong context so having a canon source to dispel these misconceptions is nice. I'll have to get it, I'm a Lore junky.

[Danthon]

High Elves + Fel energy = Blood Elves would be more correct, and High Elves + a crapload of Fel energy = Shadowsworn Elves (the ones with the beginnings of wings, black/red flesh, and exposed veins of Fel all over them). The Kal'dorei essentially split into what are now four distinct factions following the War of the Ancients. The Night Elves who followed Malfurion and the Druids retained the name Kal'dorei and eschewed their legacy of the Arcane in exchange for Druidism and Light-based power. The Highborne most loyal to Azshara who were caught up in the influence of the Old Gods and went on to become the Naga. The Highborne who rebelled against Azshara and remained with Malfurion's people, who would eventually go on to be exiled from Mt. Hyjal and voyage to the Eastern Kingdoms to become the Quel'dorei or High Elves. And now finally the Highborne who did not follow Azshara but also didn't actively rebel or assist Malfurion and Tyrande but instead shielded the city of Suramar from the Burning Legion and remained there for thousands of years. Changed by their creation of a the Nightwell into a new group, the Shal'dorei.

There's also another smaller group that you could possibly consider still of Elvish extraction: the Fal'dorei who dwell in the northern area of Suramar. Mutated by a failed Arcan'dor into spider-like beings, but retaining at least some semblance of intelligence.

"Blood elves are, biologically and physiologically, high elves." -The Warcraft Encyclopedia: Blood Elves

They apparently have not absorbed enough fel to be considered a different race or species, they are only different factions.

[Mehrunes]

They do this all the time, you see the gnomes and also the mechagnomes, being the night elf expansion, you are shown various aspects and diverse groups of night elves, not just the Kal'dorei. You are shown ghosts, you are shown nightborne, you are shown highborne, you are shown moon guard, it's like a massive glut of night elven lore.

And just like ravenmoon you're conflating tons of different things, most of which work against your argument. Gnomes aren't Mechagnomes. They are used to be Gnomes and were changed by the Curse of Flesh. How dafuq are biological creatures the same race as robots? Ghosts are ghosts, undeath doesn't wipe out your race, it's a state of being. Highborne are a social class. Is House of Nobles of Stormwind a different (yet also the same) race as peasants of Westfall? Moonguard is an organization. Of Night Eleves. Just like Royal Apothecary Society is a group of the Forsaken. Other than the Mechagnomes which works against you, none of these are relevant.

Also, Highborne, Moon Guard and ghosts look like Night Elves (with ghosts looking transparent) because they are, you guessed it, Night Elves. So I'm not sure how they are supposed to work even as a counterargument to Nightborne deliberately looking different.

are you denying they are showing a night elven city too, and night elven culture in Suramar too. What else is anyone else going to conclude. Who cares whether they believe themselves to be night elves or the gold and stardust cut above everything else - we are going by what we see are we not?

And since Blizzard is using the race pretty much the same way as is common in other fantasy works, I'll use the argument I mentioned to ravenmoon once. In Elder Scrolls Khajiit share ancestry with High Elves and some of them share culture. Are cat people the same race as Elves? Especially since the term race in fantasy refers to species, mostly intelligent ones, and it's no different in Warcraft. And I'm not denying Suramar was a Night Elven city. Cities don't evolve into other races. Because they aren't alive. And I'd say quest text belongs to the realm of "what we see".

I think this is where we disagree. But you are sort of right, and wrong. It's one way of looking at it. This is what remains of the Night elven empire, the last of the original Nigiht elven civilization in its full. It's the developeres themselves that share this information at Gamescom and a number of interviews given on this, what else are we to think? Ravenmoon said it correctly, Ancient Night Elf is now called Nightborne. You refer to it as Nightborne in the present but Night elven when speaking in the past. It doesn't remove the night elvenness it just defines Nightborne.

And we're back to Blood Elves. They were also Night Elves in the past. How comes you two don't refer to them as such and deny their connections to Nightborne (well, ravenmoon apparently backtracked on that recently)? And if one city is enough for an empire then I repeat my statement that it makes Shen'dralar an empire too. Can't say I've seen it being called that in game though.

I think you will find the developers disagree with you there:

this was in the Suramar Overview:

Zone overview that was still pre-launch and while it could potentially overwrite the comic and Chronicles, is still older than post-launch Nightborne cinematic. As such, new lore trumps older lore and considering that newest lore is the same as other older sources chances are they made a mistake in an interview like they did dozens times. And even that would depend on what they meant by old. Unless you think the cinematic wasn't made by the developers.

You're right there, but in fairness, I don't think I've heard him say they are different group of Kal'dorei, just night elf that are not Kal'dorei - I think that has been the main jist.

And considering that he also said that Kaldorei don't even call themselves Night Elves and it's external label by silly humans and Dwarves (which is false, but whatever), this is just him flip flopping. Because that would mean Night Elves aren't a thing, only Kaldorei are. And weirdly enough, no silly human or Dwarf is silly enough to refer to the Nightborne as Night Elves either.

I don't think you can stop people thinking what they want to think any more than they can stop you. I think the overwhelming point is that arcane night elves of the original night elven empire vein are called Nightborne, this is both a race and a type of night elf. If you don't describe them as very very night based elves (or night elves) what would you describe them as? Remember night elf is been used as a description not an identification or name of one specific group.

I know I can't, hence the naked Kobolds bit. Doesn't make certain thoughts right. You and ravenmoon can think that racial transformations don't exist all you want, and that Blood-Queen Lana'thel is actually a Dark Troll. It still won't be canon lore though, so it really does not belong on a lore forum. And like I told ravenmoon, there are no sources for "descriptive Night Elves". Or Night Elves stemming from human and Dwarf naming patterns since Cenarius calls them that first in W3. Or Shen'dralar joining Darnassus in Cata "extending" the term since this is ravenmoon's straw-man.

then good heavens man, what are you arguing about if you clearly understand this night elven culture and this night based group, that clearly aren't Kal'dorei but are very much elves of the night or night based elves - you're saying exactly the same things. Just each one preferring to say it his own way perhaps? I'll leave you to it, it really isn't my argument.

Because as I said in what you literally just quoted, culture does not make a race? Trying to phrase is as "elves of the night" is disingenuous and focuses on one aspect of Nighborne or Night Elves alone for no other reason than forcing the sameness of these two races.

Call them what you want, but they are Nightborne, that is their identity, and their decription is night elven.

What the hell is a "night elven description". Wait, don't tell me. Is it "The Well's energies changed us over time" from the comic? Or "Slowly it (Nightwell) changed us" from cinematic in Suramar?

elves are elves, they are all kin

I know. But, unlike what ravenmoon tries to argue, they are different races still.

they never had a unified empire, which had various empires allies were under the leadership of the Zandalari.

That's only after Aqir war where Drakkari, Gurubashi and Amani were extremely important and gained land. For example, even the capital of the Amani didn't exist until after the war. It's unknown how organized or not they were earlier on.

Biologically speaking, just because they're all "Elves" does not make them the same species. Not all cats are the same species, but they are all cats. My point about Trolls was that Night elves evolved from trolls the same way that Nightborne evolved from Night Elves. The evolution may be a lot more subtle, it is still a change in physiology

Shhh, shhh, you're wrong. The transformation from Night Elves to Nightborne does not count. Obviously, the one from Dark Trolls to Night Elves completely does. Warcraft racial transformations 101.

[Al Gorefiend]

I can't add her to one way or the other when she has done literally nothing. They seriously need to use her in a way that doesn't involve purely supporting Thrall, hell, shes hanging out in the Class hall but isn't involved in quests. I guess the assault on Grommashar is something...

She sends you on your artifact quests

[Shampro]

She sends you on your artifact quests

I know, thats what I'm saying. She needs to be actually involved in stuff that doesn't just involve Thrall is what I'm saying, hes not gonna last forever lets be real. Sending you and not taking part is not development in my eyes. Maybe one day.

(Also we're probably derailing the thread a bit lol)