[LEGION]: FROST Death Knight

[Diend]

Quick question, I was wondering at what point does Frost Scythe outweigh Obliterate? Do you have to reach a certain amount of mastery/stat before you always use it regardless of ST/AOE in the machine gun build?

[Deleted]

Coming in this thread and telling people to reroll for what? How many in this thread do you believe are competing for top 100?
And even then, they already know what to play, they don't need your advice.

Tell me one thing, are you spamming other threads too? Are you spamming all low output specs or is just the frost spec you hate that much.

Now do us a favor and go back to your cave.

ty.

please make comments relevant to frost death knights.

[Dracovian]

Crit does increase KM procc rate, in fact Frost DKs scale very well with crit. So what´s your problem with crit?

After a certain threshold more crit is irrelevant because you would get crits every other auto attack regardless. This causes DK to self devalue crit the higher ilvl we go in the future raids. This is one of the reasons why Frost scales badly.

[Deleted]

Here are some Sim-Crafts
T19 - Patchwerk-Style Fight -Timestamp: Fri Sep 16 07:48:44 2016
simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T19P.html
(Since my forum-account is new I can't post links atm - just add www . )


Frost is lowest dps !

[Deleted]

Please stop responding to wind-up merchants.

Frost is not in a terrible spot and is definitely worth bringing to raids if played by someone competent. Just in the melee department you have Ret Pally and Fury warrior which are in a much worse state than Frost DK currently. If you know how to play the game and the spec correctly you'll be brought along for mythics.

[Clash the DK]

whahaha like 10% increase movement speed means shit for pvp. When you are perma slowed, 10% or 30% extra speed makes no difference. You all complain about death advance, but that never made DK mobile,ever at all. You sound like warlocks suddenly realizing they are not a mobile class and requesting to be like demon hunters. Every class wants to be monk/DH level of stupidity

Why would you assume I was talking about PvP? I didn't mention PvP.

Counting Death's Advance, we have now lost 25% passive movement speed in Legion. That's a big deal for a variety of reasons.

[Piz813]

Quick question, I was wondering at what point does Frost Scythe outweigh Obliterate? Do you have to reach a certain amount of mastery/stat before you always use it regardless of ST/AOE in the machine gun build?

Always use scythe for AoE. Only obliterate when trying for a rime proc

[Dracovian]

Please stop responding to wind-up merchants.

Frost is not in a terrible spot and is definitely worth bringing to raids if played by someone competent. Just in the melee department you have Ret Pally and Fury warrior which are in a much worse state than Frost DK currently. If you know how to play the game and the spec correctly you'll be brought along for mythics.

I think you meant in the plate department. Rogues and Havoc destroy both DK dps specs, WW can potentially beat them ST and definitely does on AoE/Cleave. They also have immensely better mobility and utility. Frost brings the one grip. Being competent only gets you so far as Frost's ceiling is quite low. You are probably coming off dungeons where cleave is king so it is skewing your judgement on the spec.

I'm not trying to trash Frost. We have pointed out all its shortcomings on this thread but I think you are being overly optimistic. In raid bosses that don't die in 1-2 minutes Frost's abysmal ST damage will be exposed while other specs that have been moderate are going to shine like the sun (Assassination, Subtlety, Feral, Arms, Shadow Priests etc.) so it's a twofold hit of Frost looking worse and others looking amazing. Maybe terrible is the wrong word but things are looking grim for Frost.

[Deleted]

I think you meant in the plate department. Rogues and Havoc destroy both DK dps specs, WW can potentially beat them ST and definitely does on AoE/Cleave. They also have immensely better mobility and utility. Frost brings the one grip. Being competent only gets you so far as Frost's ceiling is quite low. You are probably coming off dungeons where cleave is king so it is skewing your judgement on the spec.

I'm not trying to trash Frost. We have pointed out all its shortcomings on this thread but I think you are being overly optimistic. In raid bosses that don't die in 1-2 minutes Frost's abysmal ST damage will be exposed while other specs that have been moderate are going to shine like the sun (Assassination, Subtlety, Feral, Arms, Shadow Priests etc.) so it's a twofold hit of Frost looking worse and others looking amazing. Maybe terrible is the wrong word but things are looking grim for Frost.

I wasn't saying Frost is one of the top performing melees, I'm saying it's definitely not the worse and it has its uses.

You claim I'm being overly optimistic, and I claim that you're severely underrating the utility that SF brings in certain encounters.

[Dracovian]

I wasn't saying Frost is one of the top performing melees, I'm saying it's definitely not the worse and it has its uses.

You claim I'm being overly optimistic, and I claim that you're severely underrating the utility that SF brings in certain encounters.

I don't think SF is enough to warrant a raid spot when you could bring something stronger in every other scenario for more consistent damage and utility than just cheese a trash pack or add every 5 minutes. I hope I am wrong. Frost is my favorite spec but I am being realistic. I stopped empowering Blades at 20 and started powering up Apocalypse because its the safe bet but believe me, I want nothing more than Frost to be able to compete after a few hotfixes. We'll see what happens.

[RuneDK]

I wasn't saying Frost is one of the top performing melees, I'm saying it's definitely not the worse and it has its uses.

You claim I'm being overly optimistic, and I claim that you're severely underrating the utility that SF brings in certain encounters.

HAHAHAHA.....nobody will bring a frost dk cause of SF in a raid. Unless there's a single add that needs to die immediately and even then bring two windwalkers. They have just as much burst with Strike of the Windlord and have much better utility.

[Deleted]

I don't think SF is enough to warrant a raid spot when you could bring something stronger in every other scenario for more consistent damage and utility than just cheese a trash pack or add every 5 minutes. I hope I am wrong. Frost is my favorite spec but I am being realistic. I stopped empowering Blades at 20 and started powering up Apocalypse because its the safe bet but believe me, I want nothing more than Frost to be able to compete after a few hotfixes. We'll see what happens.

Well after getting Hypothermia I am also banking on heavy AP items, but I'm going to wait for 2 EN lockouts to take a more definite conclusion on whether I'll HAVE to spec into UH or not. Taking drastic measures at this point feels... unneeded.

And again, you're really underestimating SF.

HAHAHAHA.....nobody will bring a frost dk cause of SF in a raid. Unless there's a single add that needs to die immediately and even then bring two windwalkers. They have just as much burst with Strike of the Windlord and have much better utility.

WW AoE is being nerfed with SotW being the main focus apparently. Multiple other AoEs are being nerfed as well according to the blue post.

Burst AoE is an extremely important strength, one at which Frost can excel at and I'm pretty sure that alone will justify a raid spot.

[RuneDK]

Well after getting Hypothermia I am also banking on heavy AP items, but I'm going to wait for 2 EN lockouts to take a more definite conclusion on whether I'll HAVE to spec into UH or not. Taking drastic measures at this point feels... unneeded.

And again, you're really underestimating SF.



WW AoE is being nerfed with SotW being the main focus apparently. Multiple other AoEs are being nerfed as well according to the blue post.

Burst AoE is an extremely important strength, one at which Frost can excel at and I'm pretty sure that alone will justify a raid spot.

If it was on a much shorter cooldown, I would agree with you. However a five minute cooldown does not justify a raid spot.

[Deleted]

no one will bring a Frost DK solely for burst AoE.

AoE is nice but when your actual ST damage is below Tanks, the AoE is not enough to warrant a space over a class that does just a little less AoE but alot more ST damage.

[RuneDK]

no one will bring a Frost DK solely for burst AoE.

AoE is nice but when your actual ST damage is below Tanks, the AoE is not enough to warrant a space over a class that does just a little less AoE but alot more ST damage.

they're nerfing tank dps across the board so.

[Nemesquish]

Here are some Sim-Crafts
T19 - Patchwerk-Style Fight -Timestamp: Fri Sep 16 07:48:44 2016
simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T19P.html
(Since my forum-account is new I can't post links atm - just add www . )


Frost is lowest dps !

That sim still has horrible talents selected.

Wrong on 4 of the 7 talents.

Brittle only being 5% of overall damage on a ST fight seems low, And the profile is using alot of Vers gear....If we are only that small amount behind with that shitty set up..I will be happy.

[Deleted]

no one will bring a Frost DK solely for burst AoE.

AoE is nice but when your actual ST damage is below Tanks, the AoE is not enough to warrant a space over a class that does just a little less AoE but alot more ST damage.

Not sure what kind of players you're playing with, but frost's ST is far from being below tanks' lol.

[Coldvibes]

In super short fights like Heroics/Mythic1's, its not uncommon to see Prot Paladins absolutely destroy actual DPS specs on ST damage though.

[Deleted]

In super short fights like Heroics/Mythic1's, its not uncommon to see Prot Paladins absolutely destroy actual DPS specs on ST damage though.

In super short fights..?

In "super short fights" (I'm guessing you're talking about ~1min?) proper dps specs should be doing 280k+ lol, show me a prot pally capable of pulling that.

[Tyrean]

In super short fights like Heroics/Mythic1's, its not uncommon to see Prot Paladins absolutely destroy actual DPS specs on ST damage though.

But prot paladins are not the norm and everyone knows this which is why they are getting reigned in a little bit. I do think that right now people are relying on some very faulty information to make the general conclusions that the community has made. Most people are quoting sim numbers that are all over the place from one sim to another because talent choices, gear setup, fight style, ability usage, etc are all things that the sim producers are not drilling into on a micro scale. It is almost impossible for them to be DK experts, and warlock experts, and tank experts, etc. They are creating the tools and making sure they work correctly and it is up to the community to make sure the rotations are right, the gear, the talent choices, etc. Right now no one is really doing that. I mean I just loaded my character into AskMrRobot for example and it pulled 164k dps. Currently I am doing about 200k over 5 minutes on target dummies manually, so where is the %20 difference coming from? I quickly glanced at the rotation it has and there are some issues, like putting sudden doom procs above ghoul transform in the priority queue. I would need to also look at all of their implementations of the strikes to make sure their coefficients are correct, etc. It would take a ton of work and honestly I am playing the game right now.

Essentially, there are people for which this does matter and they are doing the work (because it is their job). These people are in the extreme minority and they are holding all their information from the public because they have things at stake. (world first races and funding being tied to that). Then there are the people who think they are world first competitive but just have no real clue how far they are from that. I am talking about those guys who clear mythic but don't do things like have 6 day raid schedules, have three of their class leveled and played to the fullest to see which one gets the right legendary drop, etc. Then there are the casual people and the LFR people. To none of these does it matter that your only DK you have in your raid is doing 200k dps instead of 220k right now. All of those guilds are not going to be losing fights because of DPS numbers but rather because you stand in fire or don't do mechanics.