[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Alame]

I just downloaded the latest version simcraft and calculated statweight for my current gear.

And I am shocked.

My current ranking: Int > Crit > Vers ~= Mastery > Haste

Int 1.00
Crit 0.69
Vers 0.67
Mastery 0.66
Haste 0.63

Current stats:
Intellect 27466
Crit 2115
Haste 8651
Versatility 2518
Mastery 4971

I think the hase rate was overstated due to the fact that in the base profile was 0 haste.

Edit: I found that simcraft incorrectly calculates StFl. It seems that he thinks that StFl always gets a bonus from the mastery.

Stats ranking without StFl: Int > Crit > Vers ~= Mastery > Haste
Int 1.00
Crit 0.69
Vers 0.67
Mastery 0.67
Haste 0.59

This isn't how stat weights work.

If you want generalized stat weights, you need to normalize your stats first. You add up all the secondary stats on your gear, divide by four, and set haste/mastery/crit/vers all equal to the result. This gives you stat weights that work in a generalized setting that can then be used to form a rough stat priority.

When you straight up sim your gear, weights end up showing diminishing returns. The more of stat X you have, the lower the weight on stat X also becomes. The reason you see Haste as your lowest weight is because you have more haste than any other secondary. It's not a coincidence that your stat priority follows your gear from lowest to highest exactly - it's diminishing returns at work.

This is why - as a hardcore raider - you need to learn simcraft yourself, and be capable of simming gear options available to you. A simple stat weight/priority does not tell the full story, and a crit/vers piece may in fact be better than a haste/mastery piece if you have 8k haste and 1k crit.

[Owlkin]

This isn't how stat weights work.

If you want generalized stat weights, you need to normalize your stats first. You add up all the secondary stats on your gear, divide by four, and set haste/mastery/crit/vers all equal to the result. This gives you stat weights that work in a generalized setting that can then be used to form a rough stat priority.

When you straight up sim your gear, weights end up showing diminishing returns. The more of stat X you have, the lower the weight on stat X also becomes. The reason you see Haste as your lowest weight is because you have more haste than any other secondary. It's not a coincidence that your stat priority follows your gear from lowest to highest exactly - it's diminishing returns at work.

This is why - as a hardcore raider - you need to learn simcraft yourself, and be capable of simming gear options available to you. A simple stat weight/priority does not tell the full story, and a crit/vers piece may in fact be better than a haste/mastery piece if you have 8k haste and 1k crit.

Ok. I set all ratings to 4564 (all my ratings devided by 4). And rerun sim.

Nothink change realy:
Ranking: Int > Crit ~= Mastery ~= Haste ~= Vers
Int 1.00
Crit 0.66
Mastery 0.65
Haste 0.64
Vers 0.63

Stat				Raid-Buffed	Unbuffed	Gear Amount
Intellect			29172		27466		18831 (8742)
Crit				19.04%		19.04%		4564
Haste				15.20%		14.04%		4564
Damage / Heal Versatility	11.41%		11.41%		4564
Mastery				42.08%		42.08%		4564

[Shifted]

Are you using the default SimCraft APL? There is a better APL in the pinned FAQ on Balance Discord that is better and you should be using instead.

[Owlkin]

Are you using the default SimCraft APL? There is a better APL in the pinned FAQ on Balance Discord that is better and you should be using instead.

Default APL. But I don't think its matter with my tallents choise.

I use INC-BoE-NB

[Xiahz]

hey guys, new boomkin here. in what case is stellar flare worth using over the other two talents? thanks

[Deleted]

for some reason i find flare to be really clunky , i prefer SOTF

[Deleted]

How come @Owlkin stats are like dat?
Pure logic Haste and Int should be the most important for boomy, no?
BTW. I was wondering, do you guys use Fury of Elune ST?
Isn't there a breakpoint in Artifact tree for Starsurge > FoE ST?
Didn't test it but I saw some boomies using Fury of Elune on ST and they were praising Elune for its dmg but I think it is more suitable to use Starsurges because we can proc Goldrinn and also I think we actually deal more dmg with Starsurges. What do you think about that?
+ Boomy has a problem with movement damage dealing during a fight. I was wondering if pooling Astral Power when we expect movement and use Fury of Elune during movement isn't a solution to that? I know it has a long cooldown, but we can bypass atleast 1 movement phase with that during a fight.
Opinions?

[Ilnezhara]

for some reason i find flare to be really clunky , i prefer SOTF

Isn't incarnation mathematically better than both?

- - - Updated - - -

This isn't how stat weights work.

If you want generalized stat weights, you need to normalize your stats first. You add up all the secondary stats on your gear, divide by four, and set haste/mastery/crit/vers all equal to the result. This gives you stat weights that work in a generalized setting that can then be used to form a rough stat priority.

When you straight up sim your gear, weights end up showing diminishing returns. The more of stat X you have, the lower the weight on stat X also becomes. The reason you see Haste as your lowest weight is because you have more haste than any other secondary. It's not a coincidence that your stat priority follows your gear from lowest to highest exactly - it's diminishing returns at work.

This is why - as a hardcore raider - you need to learn simcraft yourself, and be capable of simming gear options available to you. A simple stat weight/priority does not tell the full story, and a crit/vers piece may in fact be better than a haste/mastery piece if you have 8k haste and 1k crit.

Do you know any place to get a more in depth guide on how SimC works, specifically using it to relate trinket upgrades/priorities? I.e. I got a Socketed Eye of Skovold, it's not great but is it better than my blue 830 Int + Haste stats stick?

[huth]

On a somewhat unrelated, but still Balance... relevant note: Try the Emerald Winds toy with Flap. Preferably from somewhere high, like Highmountain.

[Tauton]

This isn't how stat weights work.

If you want generalized stat weights, you need to normalize your stats first. You add up all the secondary stats on your gear, divide by four, and set haste/mastery/crit/vers all equal to the result. This gives you stat weights that work in a generalized setting that can then be used to form a rough stat priority.

When you straight up sim your gear, weights end up showing diminishing returns. The more of stat X you have, the lower the weight on stat X also becomes. The reason you see Haste as your lowest weight is because you have more haste than any other secondary. It's not a coincidence that your stat priority follows your gear from lowest to highest exactly - it's diminishing returns at work.

This is why - as a hardcore raider - you need to learn simcraft yourself, and be capable of simming gear options available to you. A simple stat weight/priority does not tell the full story, and a crit/vers piece may in fact be better than a haste/mastery piece if you have 8k haste and 1k crit.

Alame, I never realised these extra steps had to be taken. Can you please explain, or link to somewhere that fully explains the best way of simming gear in simcraft? I hear some say 70/15/15 for multitarget, so i took the values of against 1, 2 and 3 targets, took 70/15/15% of their values and added them together - is that wrong, for instance?


If, as you say, the higher the stat the lower the gain - why are we equalising them out as in reality we do have a higher and higher amount?

[huth]

The gain doesn't drop. Other stats become more potent.

[Alame]

Ok. I set all ratings to 4564 (all my ratings devided by 4). And rerun sim.

Nothink change realy:
Ranking: Int > Crit ~= Mastery ~= Haste ~= Vers
Int 1.00
Crit 0.66
Mastery 0.65
Haste 0.64
Vers 0.63

Stat				Raid-Buffed	Unbuffed	Gear Amount
Intellect			29172		27466		18831 (8742)
Crit				19.04%		19.04%		4564
Haste				15.20%		14.04%		4564
Damage / Heal Versatility	11.41%		11.41%		4564
Mastery				42.08%		42.08%		4564

Using Incarnation over SotF will devalue haste a bit - Incarnation is increased damage across the entire toolkit for the duration of the buff, while SotF provides boosts to empowerments & starfall uptime. Haste makes DoTs a lot stronger, thus more uptime on Starfall = more stellar empowerment uptime = scales with DoTs) and gives you more empowerments over the course of the fight (via increasing the rate at which AsP build/dump cycles) thus scaling better with SotF. If you swap your talents to SotF over Incarnation you should (theoretically) see haste bumped up.

Deviations in APL are also very important, as even small changes to the APL can result in vastly different action sequences & major variance in DPS. If you want to compare your stat weights to the general example one, you need to use the same APL. The weights people seem to be going off are from Cyous' guide, calculated with his APL. The fact that Moonkins were given a tiny amount of haste for the general class sim tells me that Pawkets' APL (the default simcraft one) has some oddity that devalues haste, and thus when he ran weights to determine the stats to give the profile for the class sims, he chose to use virtually no haste.

Isn't incarnation mathematically better than both?

- - - Updated - - -



Do you know any place to get a more in depth guide on how SimC works, specifically using it to relate trinket upgrades/priorities? I.e. I got a Socketed Eye of Skovold, it's not great but is it better than my blue 830 Int + Haste stats stick?

The simplest way is anytime you get a piece you think is an upgrade, sim yourself once with your current gear & once with the new piece. Especially with how many items have unique & non-static effects in Legion, it's virtually impossible to create a set of rules you can use to determine whether something is an upgrade or not without simming. You can ballpark it with stat weights, but if the difference is +/- 5% it's worth a sim either way.

Alame, I never realised these extra steps had to be taken. Can you please explain, or link to somewhere that fully explains the best way of simming gear in simcraft? I hear some say 70/15/15 for multitarget, so i took the values of against 1, 2 and 3 targets, took 70/15/15% of their values and added them together - is that wrong, for instance?


If, as you say, the higher the stat the lower the gain - why are we equalising them out as in reality we do have a higher and higher amount?

I don't like these "weighted sims" people do where they weight the results of st/mt/hac sims and try to combine them into one, universal result. The weighting they do is pulled completely out of midair and doesn't really mean much in the grand scale of things.

When simming my gear, I do three iterations for each piece - single target, 3-target council, and Hectic Add Cleave. I look at each result individually, sometimes they agree and sometimes they don't. I usually regard the results in priority of HAC>3TC>ST, based on the frequency each fight archetype appears in tiers. If HAC and ST say one thing, and 3TC says another, I go with the HAC/ST result. If the three agree, it's an easy choice. If HAC says one thing and 3TC/ST say another, I'll usually keep both pieces of gear & swap it out for the relevant fights. The differences between sims are usually <5% anyway, so the consequences of making the wrong choice are small and not something to get super worked up about. Me fucking up positioning or misplaying a mechanic will have a much larger impact on my performance than if I have equipped piece X instead of piece Y.

As for why you equalize stats - you only do this when you're looking to establish generalized stat weights. Stat weights are basically saying "how does acquiring 1 point of Stat X compare to Stat Y?" Intellect, as our universally strongest stat is always the baseline and always 1.0. If intellect provides a 100 DPS boost, Haste at a weight of 0.69 provides a 69 DPS boost, and crit at a weight of 0.54 provides a 54 DPS boost. In this scenario you want the extra point of haste over crit.

As Huth said, it's technically not the value of Haste diminishing, it's the value of the other secondaries increasing. If I'm simming weights for the current state of my character, I don't equalize stats - because I want to know how adding stats to my character as it stands right now will provide additional DPS. If you equalize secondaries in this scenario, suddenly you've created a situation that doesn't exist in game, and your sim results are not applicable anymore.

When I'm looking to make generalized weights, I'll stick my character in a set of gear of the highest available ilevel (so 850 for right now) equalize the secondaries and calculate weights. That's going to tell me for this tier of content that stat X is my most valuable and what I should be chasing. Then I can determine BiS gear, and sim anything that's close (say, mastery is a close second to haste, and there's a haste/vers piece vs. a mastery/crit piece) to finalize my list. In this comparing step I'm now accounting for the changing stat weights, so I don't need to worry about generating a new set of weights for each new piece.

Stat weights are a good starting point for generating a BiS list, beyond that determining if a piece is an upgrade or not should be done via comparative sims, not via weights.

Edit: As for guides - there is no good guide that I'm aware of. There's no mass appeal in a simcraft tutorial, as the vast majority of players are more interested in someone telling them what to do rather than figuring it out themselves. Lack of viewership means most content creators will dedicate time to other projects.

[Nerxyrall]

Does anybody have opinions on the AMR Apls or the Sim there in general? or can link me (and mybe explain how to implement it, allthough i think i can watch a specific guide on the AMR page for it) a good APL.
I want to get a little bit into simming and the AMR-site seems really nice and easy to access. While SimC always seemed more complicated or not very easy to start with.

The reason for this is, that i see vastly different numerbs in terms of stat weights and simming myself seems the most reliable approach.

Edit to clarify: I´m not looking to get "really into it" just hope to get the tools to sim gear a little here and there and if i understand it correctly if i have a good/reliable APL it should (with AMR) totally be possible to get very accurate results.

[Ilnezhara]

Hey guys,

I'd like to consider myself a very decent player (I have a lot of previous heroic raiding experience, when heroic was what Mythic is now) and I'm having a lot of trouble with the current iteration of moonkin. Here are my stats: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...m/Ilnez/simple

I find the class easy/not complex, yet my numbers are atrocious. On most mythic bosses where I have to move I do ~170k and on bosses like Oakheart with very predictable movement patterns I still only do ~190k. It's getting insanely frustrating. Given that I use NB, I can claim that my DoT uptime is very good (~90% range). My priority list goes as follows:
SF + MF
Moonmoon to prevent capping (I'm stuck with dual stats sticks)
HM or FM if I know I won't have to move for the duration of cast and won't cap (again, this is a byproduct of dual stats sticks, there's no procs to wait for)
Starsurge AP > 100 - AP generation of next spell (i.e. I will cap if I wrath again)
Empowered Starfire-thing (If I have time to cast it and won't be interrupted by having to move, I put a higher priority on this because it's much easier to sneak in SW casts)
Empowered SW
Mongo-Spam SW

What I hope the above shows is that I have put quite a lot of thought into what I'm doing and I'm usually fairly good at keeping it there. My artifact is 18 I believe, my next point is the second gold trait taking the longer path.

The problem I'm seeing is that I haven't seen my DPS go up as I moved from 830 to 840 ilvl. I really haven't. Even when I acquired the third relic slot. I'm in a pretty hardcore guild and I'm incredibly worried about losing my spot. After spending hours sim'ing and practicing it's extremely frustrating to not be able to get there. Anyone have any tips on anything I'm obviously doing wrong at a glance? I will provide some log information later tonight.

[kryptik93]

Have you unlocked the moon and stars golden trait? i don't know how well they buffed the devilsaur-shock baton trinket but i suggest you try it out, on Helya it did a little below moonfire damage

[Ilnezhara]

Have you unlocked the moon and stars golden trait? i don't know how well they buffed the devilsaur-shock baton trinket but i suggest you try it out, on Helya it did a little below moonfire damage

Moon and stars is what I'm 1 point away from.

I haven't unlocked the world quest to get that one yet, Suramar is extremely gated for me since I'm trying so hard to succeed withered training as moonkin (I haven't gotten past 200 pnts.

[Deleted]

The devilsaur trinket is really good, I have it along Naraxas' and it often does the most damage.

On a side note, shouldn't we avoid spamming un-empowered wrath if we can starsurge again? Wouldn't losing a bit of damage when moving be better than using starsurge when moving at the cost of having to cast wraths that do 50%+ less damage?

[Ilnezhara]

The devilsaur trinket is really good, I have it along Naraxas' and it often does the most damage.

On a side note, shouldn't we avoid spamming un-empowered wrath if we can starsurge again? Wouldn't losing a bit of damage when moving be better than using starsurge when moving at the cost of having to cast wraths that do 50%+ less damage?

You'll end up having no ASP eventually.

[Deleted]

Hm, in 5 mans I feel like I have too much AP rather than too little on bosses, using Incarnation. I find myself casting very little unempowered spells and only pooling AP when I know I'll have to move, and casting MF/SF when I have to move unexpectedly. Sure you need to cast some standard wraths from time to time, but I meant as a general rule, wouldn't it be better to avoid casting wrath for the sole purpose of pooling AP? I felt like that's what you do when I read your post, apologies if I misunderstood!
For the record I pull between 220k and 320k~ on single target with 847 ilvl depending on movement, fight length and if bloodlust is available. I don't think your numbers are that bad, stats sticks as trinkets aren't that good to peak on short fights.

[Ilnezhara]

Hm, in 5 mans I feel like I have too much AP rather than too little on bosses, using Incarnation. I find myself casting very little unempowered spells and only pooling AP when I know I'll have to move, and casting MF/SF when I have to move unexpectedly. Sure you need to cast some standard wraths from time to time, but I meant as a general rule, wouldn't it be better to avoid casting wrath for the sole purpose of pooling AP? I felt like that's what you do when I read your post, apologies if I misunderstood!
For the record I pull between 220k and 320k~ on single target with 847 ilvl depending on movement, fight length and if bloodlust is available. I don't think your numbers are that bad, stats sticks as trinkets aren't that good to peak on short fights.

You're correct in assuming that is what I was doing, I will definitely try what you suggest tonight. What's your talent build for reference?