7.1 spoilers "An Elven Problem"

[Aucald]

The Nightborne are physiologically closer to Kal'dorei than Quel'dorei, but there are some differences due to the changes the Nightwell caused. They look more gaunt overall, somewhat pinched or even enervated, and their skin tones rather than deep purple to forest green range from violet to blue to slate gray. I like how the Shal'dorei also keep some of the more naturalistic and traditional Night Elven motifs in their armor and dress but with a very obvious Arcane bent - wisps of energy resembling plant-life or leaves, and organic affectations created from what looks like pure mana. You can see very obvious connections back to the Kal'dorei but with their own distinct aesthetic; much in the way that the Sin'dorei and Quel'dorei before them kept with the same overly grandiose style of architecture but removed the natural element in favor of purely magical/technical feats, a society that more reflected a move away from the Druidic path the post-Sundering Kal'dorei chose.

[Gurluas]

The druid/rustic part you speak of was nonexistent. Cenarius was a fairy tale to the pre-Sundering Night Elves, and Malfurion was a lame, sandal-wearing hippie who nobody liked.

In that vein, yes, the Nightborne are the original Night Elf culture, minus the Elune-worship.

The only thing the Darnassian elves have of the original culture is the Elune worship.

No. Check out this passage from Chronicles:

There was, however, one location Azshara and her forces avoided: Mount Hyjal. The spirits and
demigods who roamed the sylvan forests unsettled the queen. She knew in her bones that Hyjal
was somehow beyond even her influence. It was a place steeped in ancient magic, a wild,
untamable, and unchangeable land that stood in stark contrast to her vision of a new Kalimdor.
Publicly, Azshara prohibited expansion into Hyjal out of respect for the night elves’ ancient
kinship with the forests. In truth, she despised the mountain and the harmony it represented.
Azshara’s views on Hyjal were well known to Cenarius. With growing unease, he had watched
the night elf empire expand. Year by year, he became increasingly frustrated with the hubris and
thoughtless actions of the sorcerous Highborne. The majority of night elf society continued
honoring the old ways of revering the wilds. The fact that these folk still lived in harmony with
the land warmed Cenarius’s heart, but he knew that they had no influence over Azshara and her
arrogant followers.

At this point Kaldorei society was basically divided in the rustic countryside living in the forests, and the high cultured cities like Suramar.
Furthermore we know Illidan and Malfurion were born in Lorlathil, which was in Val'sharah and almost looked identical to the settlement today.

[Aucald]

Make a Night Elf's ears, chin and nose thicker, add tusk and remove few fingers and toes and maybe do a slight skin tone change and you've got a Zandalari. Why does that transformation count and not others? Especially when Chronicle specifically uses the term "new race" when describing the Nightborne?

I said "species" and not "race," which while often used interchangeably mean different things. Profound changes in the physiological structure of a being (different skeletal structure or the inclusion of supernumerary features like antlers/tusks/fingers/toes) would be more indicative of a change of species than of race. Dark Troll to Night Elf would, to me, be a change of species, but Night Elf to Blood Elf would be more a change in race or ethnicity. Nightborne to Fal'dorei would also be a complete change to a new species.

[Koryn123]

No. Check out this passage from Chronicles:

There was, however, one location Azshara and her forces avoided: Mount Hyjal. The spirits and
demigods who roamed the sylvan forests unsettled the queen. She knew in her bones that Hyjal
was somehow beyond even her influence. It was a place steeped in ancient magic, a wild,
untamable, and unchangeable land that stood in stark contrast to her vision of a new Kalimdor.
Publicly, Azshara prohibited expansion into Hyjal out of respect for the night elves’ ancient
kinship with the forests. In truth, she despised the mountain and the harmony it represented.
Azshara’s views on Hyjal were well known to Cenarius. With growing unease, he had watched
the night elf empire expand. Year by year, he became increasingly frustrated with the hubris and
thoughtless actions of the sorcerous Highborne. The majority of night elf society continued
honoring the old ways of revering the wilds. The fact that these folk still lived in harmony with
the land warmed Cenarius’s heart, but he knew that they had no influence over Azshara and her
arrogant followers.

At this point Kaldorei society was basically divided in the rustic countryside living in the forests, and the high cultured cities like Suramar.
Furthermore we know Illidan and Malfurion were born in Lorlathil, which was in Val'sharah and almost looked identical to the settlement today.

Ah, I see. Seems that Chronicle changed a lot of things, because Knaak's War of the Ancients trilogy depicts the Night Elves' opinion that Cenarius as just nonsense for children, and pretty much everyone is astonished when they learn that he actually exists.

Still, they weren't druidic in the way today's Night Elves are. No antlers, leaf beards, feathers, etc. Just folks who appreciate nature and live in a rural area.

I should get Chronicles. I wish people would update the affected lore on WoWPedia to reflect the changes in Chronicles. It's been like half a year, hasn't it?

[Rhlor]

what would you call an elf of the night? a nocturnal elf? The describing now you would use is a night elf. You know like some people call themselves night owls because they're up all night. Isn't that the basis of the name night elf anyway? The races of night elves have unique names in their own tongue such as Kal'dorei, Quel'dorei, Shal'dorei - and the only reason they are night is because they are nocturnal and based of or from the Kal'dorei empire - therefore still retaining aspects of it. The Quel'dorei and Sin'dorei Thalassian elves are also based off the ancient Kal'dorei but you won't call them night elf because their culture is now day. It's the day version of the ancient night elf empire, it's a different culture they intentionally set up, but they are still many many similarities and links.

Maybe you feel you have to de-emphasize their night elvenness because raven is emphasizing it or you think he is? Even I am lost as to what your motivation is here.

. I think you are confusing me man, I have never denied blood elf connection to the nightborne, in fact I have often emphasised it, I can't speak for Raven, but I havne't seen him deny it, minimise it, yes! but not deny it. How can anyone deny it is right there. Remember blizzard wrote the High elves first, as they appeared in WC2, the night elves may hav always been in Chris' mind, to tell the story of where the High Elves come from, but it wasn't till WC3 that we saw that. Now we see the strong link between the Sin'dorei and the Kal'dorei - which was harder to see when they were only showing the nature side of the Kal'dorei - but if you read the books, you saw the whole thing.

Sure they used different architecture sets and everythign, but ti's based off of that. MEanwhile Suramar is Night elven architecture and the minute you see it, you recognise High/blood elf similarities. I know I've never denied it, maybe you mistook a discussion about the night elvenness of the whole place to mean a blood elf denial? That wasn't the case.


i get the feeling you two are both right, arguing the same thing, but don't understand what each other is saying.. that's my impression.


this is not just better sounding, this is probably the closest or exactly what it is.

the difference in skin color does not humans in real life of different races, we are all of the human race. with ethnic differences. a human of Africa is the same as a human of Asian they look different but they are human.

she is human



she is human



different ethics of human, they are the same race.

different ethics of elves

[Koryn123]

I doubt it, the lore doesn't hint to that at all. It'd be a bad idea to bring headcanon into it. Chronicles is the most up to date lore source on this.

Heres the quote about the Sunwell's igniting.

Once the storm lifted, the Highborne forged ahead, shaken but determined to find a new home.
As they drew closer to the land that the scouts had found, hope warmed their weary hearts.
Verdant woodlands blanketed the terrain, and the ground beneath the Highborne’s feet crackled
with potent lines of magic. But the elves soon discovered that another race also called this region
home: the barbaric Amani trolls.
The arrival of the Highborne infuriated the trolls, who harbored a bitter hatred of elves from
the days of Queen Azshara. The Amani sent out raiding parties immediately, and the Highborne
soon learned to fear troll ambushes in the dense forests. Yet the elves stubbornly pressed forward,
using their magical prowess to decimate any Amani who dared cross their path. Soon the trolls
also learned to tread cautiously. The continuous skirmishes fostered a mutual enmity between
the Amani and the Highborne.
Despite the trolls’ ferocity, the elves finally reached the nexus of ley lines they had been
seeking. Powerful torrents of arcane energy converged in the vibrant forests. Dath’Remar
proclaimed that this was where they would begin their civilization anew.
Before the eyes of his followers, Dath’Remar revealed something he had kept hidden over the
long and torturous journey to the north: a vial filled with the enchanted waters from the original
Well of Eternity. Just before the Highborne had been exiled from Mount Hyjal, Dath’Remar had
secretly taken one of Illidan Stormrage’s remaining vials from the custody of the night elves.
Dath’Remar poured the vial into a small lake at the center of the nexus, and a brilliant fount of
energy tore through the skies of Azeroth. The Highborne dubbed this glorious cradle of power
“the Sunwell,” a name chosen in honor of Dath’Remar and his bold quest to reignite their culture.
Thereafter, the Highborne abandoned their traditional worship of the moon, instead taking
their strength from the sun. In time, they would even be known by a new name: high elves. The
amount of arcane power available to the elves increased by an astonishing degree. Many of them
proclaimed that Dath’Remar had brought them salvation. They called their new land Quel’Thalas,
or “High Home,” and declared that it would dwarf the night elves’ civilization and stand as a
monument for the ages.

I see. I guess it's just gonna be one of those things where Blizzard forgets about their previously established rules for their universe. Because by all logic, the Night Elves should now be turning into High Elves, at whatever rate of speed Dath'remar's Highborne were, without the Well of Eternity.

We should also see some pangs of addiction for them too. I'd love to see Tyrande suddenly have to deal with a weakened Darnassian nation after mocking and scorning the high/blood elves and Nightborne for being addicts. The only reason she hasn't noticed her own addiction is because she and her kind have never lived without the source of magic.

She and all her Kal'dorei have been bathed in the power of the Well of Eternity their entire lives. First pre-Sundering, then maybe went without it for a few days before Illidan made the new one, then they were fed by the blessing of Nordrassil powered by the Well, and had Moonwells all over the place, then they were still hanging around the Well to this day, until it's now been drained/destroyed.

[Gurluas]

Why? They never lost the second well of eternity (Theres still some in the Druid quest), the World tree was just disabled. And it's even been re-blessed last I looked.
Furthermore, the exile happened 7300 years ago, the founding of Quel'thalas was 6800 years ago. So it's not like the change happened instantly.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Why? They never lost the second well of eternity (Theres still some in the Druid quest), the World tree was just disabled. And it's even been re-blessed last I looked.
Furthermore, the exile happened 7300 years ago, the founding of Quel'thalas was 6800 years ago. So it's not like the change happened instantly.

The new tree was not fully blessed.

[Mehrunes]

I said "species" and not "race," which while often used interchangeably mean different things. Profound changes in the physiological structure of a being (different skeletal structure or the inclusion of supernumerary features like antlers/tusks/fingers/toes) would be more indicative of a change of species than of race. Dark Troll to Night Elf would, to me, be a change of species, but Night Elf to Blood Elf would be more a change in race or ethnicity. Nightborne to Fal'dorei would also be a complete change to a new species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_tropes#Races There's no real indication of Blizzard straying from this trope that much. And by your logic, Lana'thel would be a different species from a Blood Elf, but a normal Darkfallen would not. And a Felblood would also be a different species even if they aren't demons yet (and there's no indication of that being the case since none of them came back so far) since they have horns.

[Rhlor]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_tropes#Races There's no real indication of Blizzard straying from this trope that much. And by your logic, Lana'thel would be a different species from a Blood Elf, but a normal Darkfallen would not. And a Felblood would also be a different species even if they aren't demons yet (and there's no indication of that being the case since none of them came back so far) since they have horns.

udead are undead, demons are demons

[Mace]

I said "species" and not "race," which while often used interchangeably mean different things. Profound changes in the physiological structure of a being (different skeletal structure or the inclusion of supernumerary features like antlers/tusks/fingers/toes) would be more indicative of a change of species than of race. Dark Troll to Night Elf would, to me, be a change of species, but Night Elf to Blood Elf would be more a change in race or ethnicity. Nightborne to Fal'dorei would also be a complete change to a new species.

I think so too. And the similarities that far outweigh the differences lend support to this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_tropes#Races There's no real indication of Blizzard straying from this trope that much. And by your logic, Lana'thel would be a different species from a Blood Elf, but a normal Darkfallen would not. And a Felblood would also be a different species even if they aren't demons yet (and there's no indication of that being the case since none of them came back so far) since they have horns.

Blizzard really hasn't defined these lines themselves, so we are wasting time arguing about what technically qualifies as a race or a relation, species as such. I think energies should be spent else where

[Deleted]

That tiny ass picture in the end though

[Deleted]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_tropes#Races There's no real indication of Blizzard straying from this trope that much. And by your logic, Lana'thel would be a different species from a Blood Elf, but a normal Darkfallen would not. And a Felblood would also be a different species even if they aren't demons yet (and there's no indication of that being the case since none of them came back so far) since they have horns.

you are right and i'm not sure why there is still a debate since we have an official source for this matter.
chronicles, page 104 :

In the millennia to come, the fount would also change Elisande and her allies, transforming them into a new race called the nightborne.

new race

new race

RACE

the end.

[Aucald]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_tropes#Races There's no real indication of Blizzard straying from this trope that much. And by your logic, Lana'thel would be a different species from a Blood Elf, but a normal Darkfallen would not. And a Felblood would also be a different species even if they aren't demons yet (and there's no indication of that being the case since none of them came back so far) since they have horns.

"More indicative," not "an ironclad definition with zero room for deviation." The Darkfallen are both undead and mutated so I would technically call them a different species, sure - not that that really counts for undead entities in the first place. The Felblood/Shadowsworn are kind of a YMMV example - they *could* be a different species altogether (there's enough differentiation there in my view of it), but they could also just be a magical mutation due to the Fel energies.

[Mace]

I see. I guess it's just gonna be one of those things where Blizzard forgets about their previously established rules for their universe. Because by all logic, the Night Elves should now be turning into High Elves, at whatever rate of speed Dath'remar's Highborne were, without the Well of Eternity.

We should also see some pangs of addiction for them too. I'd love to see Tyrande suddenly have to deal with a weakened Darnassian nation after mocking and scorning the high/blood elves and Nightborne for being addicts. The only reason she hasn't noticed her own addiction is because she and her kind have never lived without the source of magic.

She and all her Kal'dorei have been bathed in the power of the Well of Eternity their entire lives. First pre-Sundering, then maybe went without it for a few days before Illidan made the new one, then they were fed by the blessing of Nordrassil powered by the Well, and had Moonwells all over the place, then they were still hanging around the Well to this day, until it's now been drained/destroyed.

Well the Well of eternity isn't all gone, but I think blizzard is having the Nightwell cleansed and that will be the Night Elves source of power. But it depends on how they do it, if they groupo the nightborne with the night elves then we'll have that, if they keep them separate, we might have a case of night elves that follow the arcane would link to the Nightwell, night elves that don't will remain Well of Eternity/Moonwell. Night elves that link with the nightwell will become part of the Nightborne group, the others will remain part of the Darnassian Kal'dorei group.

But I'm throwing out possibilities I have discussed extensively in other forums. It's interesting to speculate.

- - - Updated - - -

you are right and i'm not sure why there is still a debate since we have an official source for this matter.
chronicles, page 104 :

In the millennia to come, the fount would also change Elisande and her allies, transforming them into a new race called the nightborne.

New race. So they aren't elves now are they? It said new race, it didn't say new race of elves.. so by your interpretations, Chronicles says the nightborne aren't elves.. beacuse it says new race...(/sarcasm) this is obviously not the case,

When I refer to night elf, if I just say elf does that mean he is not a night elf? What if i call it a humanoid - does that stop him from being an elf and a night elf.

So just because the book says new race, does it stop it from being an Elf, and does it stop it from being a Night based elf or in short a night elf? No. It is a new race, a new race of elves, and a new race of night elves. Blizzard doesn't always precisely say night elf or blood elf or humanoid blood elf specifically all the time so the nerds don't argue. Finally the developers tell you exactly what type theare , these actually aren't a new race persay, they are the ancient night elves.



Furthermore they show you, and you must decide whether there isn't anything that is Night Elven about those very night based people.

[Mehrunes]

what would you call an elf of the night? a nocturnal elf? The describing now you would use is a night elf. You know like some people call themselves night owls because they're up all night. Isn't that the basis of the name night elf anyway? The races of night elves have unique names in their own tongue such as Kal'dorei, Quel'dorei, Shal'dorei - and the only reason they are night is because they are nocturnal and based of or from the Kal'dorei empire - therefore still retaining aspects of it. The Quel'dorei and Sin'dorei Thalassian elves are also based off the ancient Kal'dorei but you won't call them night elf because their culture is now day. It's the day version of the ancient night elf empire, it's a different culture they intentionally set up, but they are still many many similarities and links.

Why would I call any Elf "an Elf of the night" in the first place? It's such a pointless thing to focus on. Especially since Night Elves mostly focus on moon and the stars and not the night itself. They are active throughout the day just fine and as such I wouldn't call them nocturnal either. So at best I'd call them Elves of the stars (which is what Kaldorei means) or moon. Still, no clue why the hell would I focus on their culture when calling them anything. I'm not going to call Dwarves mining midgets either. And what races of Night Elves? Night Elf is the race in question. And Quel'dorei aren't a race, they are a social class.

Maybe you feel you have to de-emphasize their night elvenness because raven is emphasizing it or you think he is? Even I am lost as to what your motivation is here.

I don't de-emphasize anything. Yes, they have plenty of similarities culturally and historically. So do Blood Elves, but supposedly that doesn't count because Elisande is in the city and Kael was not. These similarities don't make them same race when Blizzard specifically stated they became a new race. Race =/= culture. Or a species, which has the same meaning as race in fantasy settings. Neanderthals weren't super different from homo sapiens of the time culturally speaking. Or, as would be maybe more relatable for modern humans, ethnicity. During Ghengis Khan's reign many Turkic tribes weren't particularly different culturally from the Mongols either, and once his unification of the steppes people began made a huge part of his army. Still a different ethnicity.

. I think you are confusing me man, I have never denied blood elf connection to the nightborne, in fact I have often emphasised it, I can't speak for Raven, but I havne't seen him deny it, minimise it, yes! but not deny it.

He repeatedly stated Blood Elves aren't the same race as Night Elves anymore but Nightborne somehow are despite both having been altered by magic over prolonged periods of time. And his minimization fluctuates a lot, sometimes reaching merely one similarity with others not existing because reasons.

How can anyone deny it is right there. Remember blizzard wrote the High elves first, as they appeared in WC2, the night elves may hav always been in Chris' mind, to tell the story of where the High Elves come from, but it wasn't till WC3 that we saw that. Now we see the strong link between the Sin'dorei and the Kal'dorei - which was harder to see when they were only showing the nature side of the Kal'dorei - but if you read the books, you saw the whole thing.

The link was there in W3 just fine. The Elves were rather vocal about it.

i get the feeling you two are both right, arguing the same thing, but don't understand what each other is saying.. that's my impression.

We're hardly arguing the same thing if I'm arguing that multiple sources say out right that Nightborne changed into another, new race and he covers his ears and screams "lalala, I can't hear you" and "that source is invalid because muh culture".

this is not just better sounding, this is probably the closest or exactly what it is.

And was a point about Trolls. Before they spread across all over the world like the plague and settled in different climates.

udead are undead, demons are demons

I... know? Undead Blood Elves are both undead and Blood Elves though. And Felblood aren't demons for what we know.

you are right and i'm not sure why there is still a debate since we have an official source for this matter.
chronicles, page 104 :

In the millennia to come, the fount would also change Elisande and her allies, transforming them into a new race called the nightborne.

new race

new race

RACE

the end.

You obviously lack the English mastery required to discern between Night Elves and night elves. Or Night Elves and night Elves. Don't forget Night Elves and Night elves. And, obviously, Race and race.

[Rhlor]

the undead are their own race

[Graden]

the undead are their own race

Undeath is more like a..let's say, condition / curse. Like the Forsaken for example, who are undead humans/elfs.
Same like the curse of the Worgen and the Gilneans.

[Deleted]

You obviously lack the English mastery required to discern between Night Elves and night elves. Or Night Elves and night Elves. Don't forget Night Elves and Night elves. And, obviously, Race and race.

[Gurluas]

The new tree was not fully blessed.

Only Nozdormu's blessing was missing, meaning the Nelves are not immortal.