[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Deleted]

Well, just going by the artifacts' and set items' stats, Blizzard's original idea was that all three paladin specs would want Crit and Mastery, but so far only Holy and damage oriented Prot paladins work that way, due to cooldown-scaling with Haste.

They should really change Judgement so that it grants a buff to the Paladin instead of marking the target and that the duration matches the base cooldown. That way Mastery would not add a cap to our cleave or limit target switching, nor would it force stacking high amounts of Haste (and adjust our base cooldowns so our rotation goes a bit faster than a snail).

Talent changes should only come after that.

[Deleted]

Swifting the stats prio is much more complex than whatever they thought (if thats the reason behind the upcoming changes). The way they made the specc the best way for it to work is by generating hopo the fastest haste depended way possible and dump them in a certain haste depended window. Since hopo generation is not affected by mastery (only during new crusade windows maybe) i cannot see how they are going to fix whatever they think that needs fixing.

[Kueson]

Crusade definitely needed a rework, my Ret is at 29% haste and when someone pops a Hero/Timewarp while I have Crusade going I end up with 115% Haste, and weird shit like dropped/ignored inputs and CD's not getting the right length starts happening. At that point you are just basically mashing buttons and hoping that Jesus takes the wheel.

Are you sure you aren't just seeing buggy animation canceling? I can hit as high as 40% haste in my gear if I swap trinkets, and even then with the live Crusade + Heroism I've never had an issue with abilities not casting. Both at my normal 25 ms and even when I'm lagging while the fam destroys my connection with there Roku.

Well, just going by the artifacts' and set items' stats, Blizzard's original idea was that all three paladin specs would want Crit and Mastery, but so far only Holy and damage oriented Prot paladins work that way, due to cooldown-scaling with Haste.

They didn't plan for anything. Every artifact has crit/mastery on it because they were lazy and didn't want to put in the effort of allowing us to choose the stats we want our artifacts. Wouldn't have been hard to give us reforging back at our artifact alters, specifically for just our artifact.

[Deleted]

So can someone tell me just how much of a dps nerf this actually is? as in they have tested the PTR also as people mentioned before make the new BoW replace BoV instead. Also I dont get them nerfing the tier set bonus of a class that is already struggling with dps as it is....... I thought they were not going to do class tunning but when it comes to ret it is so clear they are doing a run on the numbers and nothing is a buff everything is a nerf or a sidegrade at the very best.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I would of been fine with a trait giving 5% extra haste >.>but ideally reforging would really make me enjoy my Pally much more.

[Vuagnon]

What is wrong with them? Judgment shouldn't be a cleave. We need something else for that. Judgment must stay as a part of single target rotation.

[Deleted]

Anyone have an idea on the stat weights after we get 30% haste, would be very useful

[Deleted]

Anyone have an idea on the stat weights after we get 30% haste, would be very useful

Haste (to 30%) > Critical Strike >= Versatility > Haste (above 30%) >>> Mastery

[Taeldorian]

What is wrong with them? Judgment shouldn't be a cleave. We need something else for that. Judgment must stay as a part of single target rotation.

Why can't it be both? I don't understand the one way mind set you have. It should be both, it's our mastery. It should be flexible.

[Deleted]

Why can't it be both? I don't understand the one way mind set you have. It should be both, it's our mastery. It should be flexible.

ever heard of good ol' jack of all traits master at none?
exactly the situation we steer for. Judgement is already overloaded with functions and you want to give it more?

[Taeldorian]

ever heard of good ol' jack of all traits master at none?
exactly the situation we steer for. Judgement is already overloaded with functions and you want to give it more?

Oh boy. Overloaded with functions? It has one and one only right now and that's ST. It doesn't work with cleave and it barely works with AoE (GJ helps this but not much) so it has only one use currently. No idea how you think it's overloaded with functions. It's only good at one thing hence why mastery is so low on the priority stat table.

[Vuagnon]

Why can't it be both? I don't understand the one way mind set you have. It should be both, it's our mastery. It should be flexible.

Because it's a debuff that needs to be maintained and our only cleave on demand at the same time unless you have zeal.

Plus it doesn't interact with Divine Storm in any way, which is not a good design to begin with.

[Taeldorian]

Because it's a debuff that needs to be maintained and our only cleave on demand at the same time unless you have zeal.

Plus it doesn't interact with Divine Storm in any way, which is not a good design to begin with.

I agree and understand but that's what I'm saying. I believe it should interact with it, I believe it should have a lot more purpose than just ST.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Oh boy. Overloaded with functions? It has one and one only right now and that's ST. It doesn't work with cleave and it barely works with AoE (GJ helps this but not much) so it has only one use currently. No idea how you think it's overloaded with functions. It's only good at one thing hence why mastery is so low on the priority stat table.

well infact currently Judgement buffs aour spenders, provides cleave baseline, and buffs our AoE through GJ very nicely, and if this very newestest Crusade comes through, Judgement also will become our generator move along with becoming Hammer of Wrath substitute.

Not saying it's overloaded with functions(like it was in WoD), but it has a few currently, sure as sure.

[Taeldorian]

well infact currently Judgement buffs aour spenders, provides cleave baseline, and buffs our AoE through GJ very nicely, and if this very newestest Crusade comes through, Judgement also will become our generator move along with becoming Hammer of Wrath substitute.

Not saying it's overloaded with functions(like it was in WoD), but it has a few currently, sure as sure.

There's a big difference between working functions and functions that don't operate at all.

For example, the baseline cleave you're speaking of doesn't work. We can't do anything with it. You can't call it a function because it doesn't work (aka, it doesn't function). The only thing judgement does that works is provide us with controllable single target. That's it. If it worked the way you say it does then mastery would be one of our main stats to go for, but it's last. Why is it last? Because it serves only one purpose and has only one function. It's just that simple.

[Vuagnon]

I agree and understand but that's what I'm saying. I believe it should interact with it, I believe it should have a lot more purpose than just ST.

When your sole cleave on demand is also the debuff that you are supposed to maintain primarily against inveterate criminals, you will eventually be compelled to make a decision between using it on stuff that needs to be cleaved and saving it for the big boys. Although I'm not a hardcore raider and I don't know the upcoming raid mechanics yet, I strongly believe that this alone has a strong potential of creating a pestilential quagmire for Ret's future in Legion.

[Anardel]

The main concern is that they still don't adress any of the spec's flaws. They want mobility to be a weak point so I find useless to ask for that ok, but how about this stupid GBlessings? Or how about Judgement being a buff on us instead a debuff? Or why our artifact has too many traits dedicated to defense and few to improve DPS? How about talking about underperforming talents no one use in his/her right mind like Consecration, ES, Holy Wrath aka EquaLOLity etc?

I don't find any of these changes, I only find a nerf to our best lv. 100 talent, and a change to BoW which nobody asked for to supposedly value Mastery, when we aren't dissatisfied with actual Mastery's ranking. Some stat is going to be the worst, it's not a drama.

This is what makes me upset right now. Silence about our real concerns, two changes nobody asked for.

[Taeldorian]

When your sole cleave on demand is also the debuff that you are supposed to maintain primarily against inveterate criminals, you will eventually be compelled to make a decision between using it on stuff that needs to be cleaved and saving it for the big boys. Although I'm not a hardcore raider and I don't know the upcoming raid mechanics yet, I strongly believe that this alone has a strong potential of being pestilential for Ret's future in Legion.

That's the choice we have to make with judgement currently. Use it on priority adds or use it on the boss? Good raiders may be able to time it well so judgement is ready when the adds come out but everyone will inevitably run into that situation. The new crusade helps this a bit because it provides access to judgement. This is only once every 1 minute and 33 seconds though so it could still happen. Either way, this is definitely the main concern with judgement and has been for a while.

[Deleted]

Haste (to 30%) > Critical Strike >= Versatility > Haste (above 30%) >>> Mastery

Damn I didn't realise haste was that bad after 30%

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The main concern is that they still don't adress any of the spec's flaws. They want mobility to be a weak point so I find useless to ask for that ok, but how about this stupid GBlessings? Or how about Judgement being a buff on us instead a debuff? Or why our artifact has too many traits dedicated to defense and few to improve DPS? How about talking about underperforming talents no one use in his/her right mind like Consecration, ES, Holy Wrath aka EquaLOLity etc?

I don't find any of these changes, I only find a nerf to our best lv. 100 talent, and a change to BoW which nobody asked for to supposedly value Mastery, when we aren't dissatisfied with actual Mastery's ranking. Some stat is going to be the worst, it's not a drama.

This is what makes me upset right now. Silence about our real concerns, two changes nobody asked for.

Gboms is honestly as I expected. Not something to pay attention to, I use them in world questing but if I'm in a dungeon(And eventually when my guild raids) I'll put GBOM on whoever I think benefits best. It's not the greatest mechanic in the world. As for our artifact talents, other specs/classes have some defensive stuff so I'm not too miffed although personally I think the reduced CD for Shield of Vengeance should be baseline and replace the trait with something else.

I've already said I dislike the Crusade talent change. It's..discouraging.