Raid size a deal breaker in Legion? [Poll]

[Trapped]

Out of curiosity what do you do about new / inexperienced players in that scenario?

Consider that a new player back in vanilla / BC only had 1 raid size BUT that 1 raid size was somewhere in between current LFR and normal in terms of modern difficulty.

It would be a pretty big leap to expect them to be able to just jump into heroic, yet alone mythic. Do you just drop mythic difficulty and make current heroic the top difficulty? Do you rename heroic and mythic to normal and heroic and just drop the bottom two difficulties?

Etc.

New players get into raiding the same way old players did. Also, I think the issue here is that new/inexperienced players aren't using LFR/Normal to get "better" they are completing it and not trying to advance.

[Jessicka]

New players get into raiding the same way old players did. Also, I think the issue here is that new/inexperienced players aren't using LFR/Normal to get "better" they are completing it and not trying to advance.

What you're saying doesn't really make sense; new players do get into raiding the same way we all did; and if they want to advance, they will use it to gear up and to practice the bosses. I think it's pretty well known, even to new players, that the best gear and the way to continue to progress past it, is through higher difficulties, so it's not a case of completing it and deciding "Well that's it then" and leaving.

The players who do decide "well that's it then" were never otherwise going to try to raid or 'get better' in the first place.

[Baconeggcheese]

New players get into raiding the same way old players did. Also, I think the issue here is that new/inexperienced players aren't using LFR/Normal to get "better" they are completing it and not trying to advance.

The path old players had no longer exists, and what new players are doing now difficulty wise is more akin to what old players were doing when they were originally learning. That is to say vanilla / BC raids were around the difficulty of current normal raids.

If we say... removed lfr / normal / heroic and just brought it back to 1 difficulty like vanilla / bc, it would be nothing like what we experienced in vanilla / bc because of how dramatically more challenging the raid content is now and how little of any other meaningful content there is to do.

[Necrocoitus]

100% agree. I feel the only people supporting 20-man Mythic are those currently in a 20-man guild, or on a mega server that has the playerbase to support such guilds. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm in a 20man mythic guild on a big server, we've had our issues, but we currently have a roster of around 30 people, so we usually always get raids going. I still want 10man back though. I just liked the smaller raid size so much more. I miss having the close community we had in a group of 10 people. In my guild at least, I feel like the people who still want 20man is the slackers who would be cut from a 10man group because they weren't performing, while in a 20man it doesn't matter all too much if not all players pull their weight, as long as someone else makes up for it.

[Trapped]

In my guild at least, I feel like the people who still want 20man is the slackers who would be cut from a 10man group because they weren't performing, while in a 20man it doesn't matter all too much if not all players pull their weight, as long as someone else makes up for it.

Bingo. That's one of the main reasons I despise larger raid groups.

[Niaraa]

In fact it's more "i want FLEX mythic"

[TirielWoW]

I'm in a 20man mythic guild on a big server, we've had our issues, but we currently have a roster of around 30 people, so we usually always get raids going. I still want 10man back though. I just liked the smaller raid size so much more. I miss having the close community we had in a group of 10 people. In my guild at least, I feel like the people who still want 20man is the slackers who would be cut from a 10man group because they weren't performing, while in a 20man it doesn't matter all too much if not all players pull their weight, as long as someone else makes up for it.

S ok me people simply enjoy a larger raid size. I happen to play a spec that does better in larger raids than it does in smaller ones. Additionally, there's actually room for my spec (sometimes...) in a larger raid, whereas I think we all know it would be nothing but Disc and HPals if we only had 20 man mythic.

[TirielWoW]

S ok me people simply enjoy a larger raid size. I happen to play a spec that does better in larger raids than it does in smaller ones. Additionally, there's actually room for my spec (sometimes...) in a larger raid, whereas I think we all know it would be nothing but Disc and HPals if we only had 20 man mythic.

*sigh*

"Some people"

I hate my phone's auto correct.

[Deleted]

Out of curiosity what do you do about new / inexperienced players in that scenario?

Consider that a new player back in vanilla / BC only had 1 raid size BUT that 1 raid size was somewhere in between current LFR and normal in terms of modern difficulty.

It would be a pretty big leap to expect them to be able to just jump into heroic, yet alone mythic. Do you just drop mythic difficulty and make current heroic the top difficulty? Do you rename heroic and mythic to normal and heroic and just drop the bottom two difficulties?

Etc.

afaik ICC was the most pug-ed raid, you didn't have lfr then, only normal and heroic, and heroic was harder than the current mythic, don't forget that LK hc didn't fall until they implemented the % buff

normal is already a joke, we don't need lfr

[Deleted]

They are call Raids.

10 mans are ok.
But going 20 and 25 man back on Naxrammas. That feels like a real Raid.
Raid is a big bunch of people charging ahead to defeat an army, boss whatever. 10mans feel small, quiet.
20 mans feel thrilling, like an army or people and there is more satisfaction downing a boss.

[Shibito]

10man was always more intimate than bigger sizes...
10man was, for the most part, signifigantly harder than 25man..

10man was always better than bigger sizes..

no lol 25 man heroic was the hard ones u always cleared 10 mans heroics earlier way earlier

[Wild]

I dont like 20man raid. I totally prefer 10man. 20man is just too much shit going on, too many colors, too many numbers, too much lag...just a big ghetto.
Doin 10man u still have a good overview of whats going on, whos doing what, etc.
Back in the days, we killed arthas as a server first with 10 man, that was about the best time I ever had raiding. Couldnt imagine having done that 20man.

Also feels like that at 10man u actually matter...as far as from a healers point of view. If my heal didnt come through, people actually died. In 20man if my heal doesnt come through, someone else will cover for me easily.

[Lochton]

But, we can still 10 man, no? Thought it was just flexing till 30.

As for Mythic, stick it where it is..

It's bad enough they got rid of 40 mans. I don't understand why people are so obsessed with turning raids into dungeons instead of raids.

Though, I enjoyed 40 mans back in the days... The anniversary with Molten Core made me believe that it would never be a thing again.. Many just couldn't handle it.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Pretty bad necro

[Gatsbybutters]

It's one of the main reasons I quit. Switching and sticking to 20 man only mythics killed it for me... and my server... and it's guilds. Regardless of what you believe, think, or feel, it was a decision based in lazyness. ;( Blizzard has a rough time tuning their own game ;( Poor shitbag devs.

[Flaks]

afaik ICC was the most pug-ed raid, you didn't have lfr then, only normal and heroic, and heroic was harder than the current mythic, don't forget that LK hc didn't fall until they implemented the % buff

normal is already a joke, we don't need lfr

I agree. Lfr as a difficulty should be removed and the system should allow us to queue for normal mode raids.

[Woop Woop]

I agree. Lfr as a difficulty should be removed and the system should allow us to queue for normal mode raids.

I don't agree that LFR should be removed, rather have the ilvl drops reduced a bit, to be slightly better than random heroics (+5? right now it's +15 higher)
It was introduced as a way for people who don't raid to see and experience the raid, which is good.

I think there would have to be some kind of requirement for that though. A "difficult" attunement maybe.
With a LFR requirement that is only ilvl, I can only imagine how bad it will be. Like a harder LFR where people are clueless. It will result in so much crying.

[Deleted]

I have more than 30 people wanting to raid, so I'd like the mythic diff to be expanded to 30 people.

[FuxieDK]

no lol 25 man heroic was the hard ones u always cleared 10 mans heroics earlier way earlier

ICC25HC was cleared before ICC10HC-Strict. Strict = Not using 25man gear..
At the same time, ICC25 was pug-mode, where ICC10 was progression-mode.

BWD25HC was cleared before BWD10Normal.

25man have always had pretty much all buffs etc available.. 10man requires class rotation and benching players for certain fights. This is why, 10man always was the harder mode,,

[mxwha0]

ICC25HC was cleared before ICC10HC-Strict. Strict = Not using 25man gear..
At the same time, ICC25 was pug-mode, where ICC10 was progression-mode.

BWD25HC was cleared before BWD10Normal.

25man have always had pretty much all buffs etc available.. 10man requires class rotation and benching players for certain fights. This is why, 10man always was the harder mode,,

I'd also like to add that 10 man sartharion + 3 drakes was the hardest content in that tier regardless of gear.
Which is also why so few people earned plagued protos.