Do you care about Heroes e-sports?

[RH92]

Hello,

So today I came across a post by Antihero, a former European pro-player. He makes some interesting points about casual HotS community and it's effect on recent changes; and state of professional scene itself.

I will make some cut outs, but here is the entire post: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sp3r0s

The community has the big problem of not wanting to get better at the game by watching pro games or pro streamers, but why ? Well if u at every point of the development of this game start trying to make cuts because of the "very casual" community and dont want to make stuff which could be complex and hard to master and therefore giving you the potential of carrying a game on your own it becomes a problem. Remember when muradin had rewind on 13 ? well those were crazy times i know was it overpowered ? yes probably, but it was a tool to make plays with going for those double stunlock combos and you could carry a game by mastering ur hit% of ur stormbolts. Or the now happening removal of relentless because it is confusing for new players and they think its a bug ? well there would be too much to mention here so i will just mention those 2 examples.
So what happens if u do this for over 2 years ? Well you give people arguments about how that game is easy to play and to master and they are able to justify it with every single change u get implemented into the game, even tho heroes prolly has a higher skill ceiling in the pro enviroment than some other games macro and micro wise. Therefore those people dont feel obliged to watch those pro games.

I know pro-players are mostly playing their own game, but I still find it surprising majority of people have no desire to look for map strategies, optimal ways to play their heroes and how team compositions work.

What I see, is people picking their "mains" and simply dick around the map trying to kill stuff. I mean, it is okay if you play Quick Match, but in Hero League? Unless you are in the highest leagues, playing Hero League is no different to Unranked Draft. Sometimes even worse, because without the pressure of ranked mode, people are suprisingly more open to weird strategies and advices.

Now about the changes for casual community, I kind of like the dependency on team. One great play by one player doesn't change the outcome unless whole team starts to chain those great plays together, outplaying enemy team. It has this potential to create good friendships based on playing like a team, something I missed so much since Burning Crusade. So I like removing the OP stuff like Rewind on 13 for Muradin.

However reasoning behind removal of all Relentless talents because it appears weird to new players... I was like "What the fuck..?" when I read it, honestly. Just few months ago, everybody was bitching about 'stun meta' of Tyrande + Muradin/Diablo. I can agree in some cases it was over the top, like 75% CC reduction while in Worgen form for Greymane, but since they made Blinds and Polymorhp unaffected by it, I thought just nerfing the talent would be enough.

I can understand Blizzard is trying to make games as intuitive and easy to pick up as they can, but I am worried about them alienating the dedicated playerbase. I kind of find it all weird, because at one side they are happy with focus on heavy team environment or create some unique and interesting heroes like Abathur. However on the other side they remove those subtle, yet effective things. I personally think complexity is fun, just look at Alarak's Telekinesis ability. This ability is Heroic worthy. You can use it to manipulate enemy positioning, chase or escape with self-cast and save people with it. If you are only using it to make that combo (Telekinesis into Discord Strike), you better be playing Kerrigan then. It is no different then.

On top of that the heroes scene is very unstable due to the for players very unpleasent tournament structure. 2 Regionals per season dont rly cut it for those players sadly. If u are a lower ranked team and just manage to get to that event and get 7/8th place u could call that a nice holiday trip and u get 1k $ (not euros even in EU) per player, before taxes even apply to that, on top of that sounds great right?
Well reality is that u spend prolly more than 1 or 2 months for the preparations, scrims, replay analysis etc. where u could have just went to some fastfood chain worked there and got more money for even less work and dedication.
BUT ORGS SPONSOR THEM AND GIVE THEM MONEY !!!111!!!!!
Alot of organisations will supply a "lower end top 10 team" with no money at all in most cases and just some peripherals and will maybe even take a cut on the prize money up to 20% so from those 1k$ u will end up at prolly 500$.
Those teams are bound to disband and reform almost every now and then coz for them they have to try and find the best possible team in order to have a chance to get into the spot which i will call the "almost safe zone".
Those top 4 teams will get alot more prizemoney than the lower and teams, but will also have to pay the same cuts/taxes depending on country and organisation behind them. They will get some salary which might be up to fastfood chain standards and they can, if u add up the prize money, maybe even safe a little bit on their bank. This is why i call it the "almost safe zone", because those teams have to fear that at one point they might get beaten by other teams and soon find themselves in the "lower end" again and have to work their way up again and those "savings" wont even last for a year if u were to live in ur own flat and had to pay the bills.
tl;dr about that part if u arent dignitas or misfits (in EU atleast) u should be careful that u wont live under a bridge soon.
So in conclusion if blizzard would provide an offline league with a bonus salary which would be profitable we would see less rosterswaps coz its more stable we would have better teams and more viewership coz people wouldnt ask "didnt bkb just get kicked out of liquid why is he alrdy back in again and hey where is vortix i miss his vikings? " and teams would more fans due to that than the randomly organized online qualifiers ending up with a lan event some of them might not even attend.

Now this is kind of hard to comment on, but I definitely agree with the roster swaps and lack of team identity caused by it.

For example that's the reason I gave up on NA scene, I have no idea which team is who and what are their strengths and weakness because one season they play like that and next time you see entirely different roster. Now look at MVP Black, this team is pretty much the same for the time being. You always know you are going to watch great series when you see them.

Now all of this leads me to two questions:
1. Do you find it hard to track Heroes e-sports?
2. Do you like to watch Heroes e-sports? If yes, does it influence the way you play?

Please feel free to discuss anything written in this post!

- - -

My answers:
1. To some extent, I find it harder to track Korean scene because of weird names. However I have rather good idea about European scene, but I entirely gave up on NA scene because of all the constant roster swaps.
2. I like to watch the highest level games, I usually skip the group stages except the matchups between great teams in Regionals. However I watch entire major tournamets if I can. It definitely helped me to improve as a player.

[Stormcall]

I don't care about any e-sports. Or any real sports for that matter. I play games, I got no interest in watching other people play games.

[Deleted]

Intriguingly yes, I do care about Heroes e-sports. It's the first game since Warcraft III TFT that I actually can be bothered to watch regularly. Split on the 'fluff' around the games, professional analysis is interesting; twitch and it's culture is completely alien to me. I feel you could lose more brain cells reading twitch chat than spending the same amount of time without oxygen.

Does pro play affect the way I play? Certainly yes, I see interesting heroes, interesting tricks and try to learn, copy them. Will a neutral observer see any difference? Absolutely not, I am wood league and my play looks wood league.

Do I find heroes e-sports hard to track? Not sure if I understand 'track' correctly. If it means finding interesting tournamnets to watch, yes Heores is hard to follow. For interesting SC 2 tournaments, I open Team Liquid and feel completely informed. For Heroes, I can check gosugamers, reddit and still miss interesting games. If 'track' means follow pro teams roster moves and such; I don't care about that, so I don't even try to track that in the first place.

And as to what the progamer says, I read only part of your quotes and you only quoted part of what he said. That extract may be out of context, but it is nonsense. People don't watch Formula 1 to become better drivers or NFL for a diet or workout program. They watch shit to be entertained and at least I am too old to appreciate complexity for complexity's sake.

[RH92]

I don't care about any e-sports. Or any real sports for that matter. I play games, I got no interest in watching other people play games.

Just a question, do you invest any time looking for some information about the game? Or you just go by trying out stuff by yourself?

Because I think the existance of people who do any sport professionally, helps the development of a sport due the level of competitivness. It is not that much about watching them play the game, it is about seeing what they can do and trying to replicate it by yourself when you are playing with friends. I mean who doesn't want to be good? It basically accelerates the speed of learning. You can throw side kicks as complete moron and be happy with it, but unless somebody teaches you to raise your knee first and then extend your leg with a slight twist (Is it the right word?), you are never going to throw it properly.

Now Heroes e-sports are in a messy spot, which negatively affects players themselves. The constant roster swaps or even team disbands negatively affects team integrity and viewers are unable to create relantionships with the team - similar in rooting for your national team or local town team.

Do I find heroes e-sports hard to track? Not sure if I understand 'track' correctly. If it means finding interesting tournamnets to watch, yes Heores is hard to follow. For interesting SC 2 tournaments, I open Team Liquid and feel completely informed. For Heroes, I can check gosugamers, reddit and still miss interesting games. If 'track' means follow pro teams roster moves and such; I don't care about that, so I don't even try to track that in the first place.

Liquipedia used to be a good source of HotS tournaments, but lately it became slow to update. However I found www.masterleague.net to be a really good site. It even shows dates for 5 or so tournaments happening in near future.

About the player movement, I wouldn't care that much about it if teams were stable. Right know, I kind of feel forced to track my favourite players just to be disappointed seeing them underperforming in a new team. I just want to tune in for my favourite teams and know how they are going to play it. Does it make a sense?

What do you think Blizz can do to make it more transparent?

And as to what the progamer says, I read only part of your quotes and you only quoted part of what he said. That extract may be out of context, but it is nonsense. People don't watch Formula 1 to become better drivers or NFL for a diet or workout program. They watch shit to be entertained and at least I am too old to appreciate complexity for complexity's sake.

I qouted only parts that weren't about him as person and his decision to stop streaming I guess. I somehow disagree with some things he said as well, but I think he has raised a good point about influence of pro-scene on casual players.

You might not watch it to learn, but as you said you try those "interesting tricks". It is indirect learning process even if you are not looking for it. I may be different than you in this, but I really like to watch sports to learn. I for example am not interested in sports I am not doing myself.

[Aliessil]

If I'm watching a HotS match it'll be on in the background while I'm doing something else, so I don't really care about who's playing or which team they're on, only which heroes they're playing and whether it's interesting. So I guess my answer is no I don't really care except as light entertainment.

[Thimagryn]

I only play vs AI and I don't care about E-sports, though I will occasionally watch it if I had nothing better to do. I've watched a few games on twitch recently. I don't care to follow the top tier, I just watch for shits and giggles really.

The only E-sports I really followed was SC2 in its first few seasons.

[apepi]

1. It is somewhat hard to track, even if you are paying attention to things that happen.
2. I really like to see what they build, how they play a hero and good comps. You do not understand how salty I was at Goku playing Lili and sucking at it. I honestly thought his build was horrible and made all Lili's look bad because of it. But the Li-Li plays have gotten a lot better, but I still hate Goku.

[ttak82]

I'll answer your questions first.

1. Do you find it hard to track Heroes e-sports?
2. Do you like to watch Heroes e-sports? If yes, does it influence the way you play?[/SIZE]

1. If you are talking about following teams and their progress, I think It's hard, as the websites are 'unofficial' and convoluted. Tracking teams is easier if you have something officially endorsed by by Blizzard. If you are talking about micro and macro game in a match, it's a bit hard to track at times as the action is fast paced. But it will get easier over time, and it's not a flaw in the game per se.
2. Yes I enjoy heroes e-sports. If there is a big tourney going on, I just watch it exclusively. It has improved my game knowledge in terms of drafting but improving gameplay is a function of actually playing the game or spending time in training mode. A lot of tournament drafts are also predictable so there are heroes you don't see at a high level of play.

Now about the statement by Anti-hero:
I feel his statement does not reflect the sentiments of the entire community. Nor do I agree with his assessment of complexity or usefulness of the older talent trees. Relentless was removed by devs simply because no one picked it outside a few use cases on a a few heroes. They nerfed it earlier against silences and now want to make heroes with CC more impactful as a lot of stuns are reduced in power from their earlier versions. They also change some abilities/talents to stop degenerate strategies. (mid game CD resets being on of these)

Blizzard is taking time to nurture the HOTS e-sports scene, but I think their caution is warranted. They are tweaking the game all the time and it's better to have a product which players are comfortable with. If Anti-hero and all the other guys complaining about money really want more money why don't they go play other games where hey don't have to worry about living under a bridge like DOTA2 and LOL? Or even SMITE? Do they have a problem with the level of competition there? Or is the community (which is likely to be, in their eyes, less casual and more willing to learn from the 'pros'? Or, you know, is heroes actually more fun than the alternatives?

The esports scene will grow on it's own and I would prefer an organic scene over a money infused one.

The roster issues are also common in other games. Happens in DOTA2 as well. Sometimes even getting millions of dollars is not enough to keep a team together in DOTA2. I also see this common misconception peddled so much by these 'pro' players that providing salaries to players (aka incurring expenses) will magically make the game 'profitable', especially when factoring that esports is likely not even the main revenue generator for the game.

You can read his statement like this:
"Blizz makes game too casual friendly by constant changes (nerfs) and the community sucks because it cant learn how to get better this way. Because of that, I can't get a pro team going and even if I did I can't compete because I don't get paid to play. All the top teams are good because they get paid and that makes them play at god tier level. Please pay other players more so they can become god tier and help to increase HOTS profits by supposedly increasing your game revenue from esports."

[Zuben]

As I had never been interested in watching sports, I thought e-sports would be the form for me. It wasn't. It's actually even more boring than traditional sports, as game avatars lack the flexibility and quirks of a real-world athlete. Watching a match of HotS felt no different to me than watching a replay of my own match, because I can't get a sense of the competing players' skill level like I can when I watch traditional sports.

[Stormcall]

Just a question, do you invest any time looking for some information about the game? Or you just go by trying out stuff by yourself?

Because I think the existance of people who do any sport professionally, helps the development of a sport due the level of competitivness. It is not that much about watching them play the game, it is about seeing what they can do and trying to replicate it by yourself when you are playing with friends. I mean who doesn't want to be good? It basically accelerates the speed of learning. You can throw side kicks as complete moron and be happy with it, but unless somebody teaches you to raise your knee first and then extend your leg with a slight twist (Is it the right word?), you are never going to throw it properly.

I'll occasionally look up build ideas for heroes I don't play often, I'll check out "fun" vids like WTF Moments, and I read this forum. Beyond that, no, not really. Even then I'm more inclined to test things myself rather than just copying someone else blindly. It's a lot more FUN(which is what I am playing the game for, fun, not as a job) learning how to play a hero on my own rather than just trying to copy the e-sports players. And even if I do try to copy those players, a lot of times things simply don't apply the same. Playing in an organized team, with voice chat and all, is a lot different from being grouped up with 3-4 random strangers, against another team of random strangers in a quick match.

[Snowfunk]

No, not at all.

I have a hundred or so games played, it's an alright game. It has a place. But I can't bring myself to watch it, or care about it as an E-sport in the slightest.
It's so dull compared to watching Dota. To few variables.

[Well]

On the point of Relentless, I'd like to say that having a completely passive ability, that is always on and nets you a decrease in time spent controlled, without you yourself doing anything, is absolutely bad design. I am very happy with the removal of relentless: if you want mitigation of any kind, have it be active. Cleanse is more than enough.

On the e-sports topic:

I feel sad about the players that have given so much effort without getting much back. On the other hand, I honestly do not want HotS derailed as LoL has been for years now. A game is a game, nothing more. I do love watching games of hots e-sports when I stumble on a live stream though.

[Baelic]

First of all, biased poll is biased. Apparently people who don't care for e-sports in general are all just trolls. So the results are completely worthless.

I'm of the camp that only cares enough about e-sports to say that they don't bother to watch or follow e-sports. To be more on topic though, holy shit does that guy have some serious narcissism and entitlement issues.

[RH92]

First of all, biased poll is biased. Apparently people who don't care for e-sports in general are all just trolls. So the results are completely worthless.

I'm of the camp that only cares enough about e-sports to say that they don't bother to watch or follow e-sports.

Oh, please... How is it biased?

This thread is in HotS forum, obviously people who are responding are caring about the game itself because they play it. No need for 'I like to play it, but ignore e-sports' option.

[Baelic]

Oh, please... How is it biased?

This thread is in HotS forum, obviously people who are responding are caring about the game itself because they play it. No need for 'I like to play it, but ignore e-sports' option.

Actually, there is plenty of need for one. Cause guess what? I play both HoTs and LoL but ignore e-sports for both! It's biased because it makes two assumptions, 1) there are only HoTs players and 2) Only HoTs players are allowed to know about e-sports. While this forum may be about HoTs it is not exclusive to HoTs players.

But then again, I'm only just a filthy casual, what do you care? *shrug*

[Tirilka]

With my time limited by work as it is, I'd rather play it than watch games that may or may not even be running at a given moment. Unless it's meal time, then I can tune in on some stream on twitch. If it happens to be a tournament, then good, I will watch the current game until its end, and maybe even 1-2 more.

1) Following the scene is convoluted, and I never had the desire to delve in it.
2) I like to watch it, when I want to watch it. It influences my play in no way at all. I don't play in the same environment for anything specific to apply to me.

[RH92]

Actually, there is plenty of need for one. Cause guess what? I play both HoTs and LoL but ignore e-sports for both! It's biased because it makes two assumptions, 1) there are only HoTs players and 2) Only HoTs players are allowed to know about e-sports. While this forum may be about HoTs it is not exclusive to HoTs players.

But then again, I'm only just a filthy casual, what do you care? *shrug*

No idea what are you talking about.

The thread was dedicated to avid HotS players and their opinion on subject. Why would anybody who doesn't play this game even come into this sub-forum? I don't go into sub-forums of games I don't play or care enough to discuss it.

Sure you can watch stuff without ever playing it yourself, but I think you kind of lack insight then. I mean, I am not playing Ice Hockey myself despite watching game now and then. Do I give a shit about rule changes? No, I just occassionally watch them play it no matter the rules. In short, I want to hear player opinions (be it casual, hardcore or professional) and not observer opinions.

Sometimes I feel like people just read title and immdetiately respond without reading a single bit.

[Volitar]

Nope I found it to be an awful e-sport. It just kind of looks like whole teams deathballing around the map and the commentators trying to think of things to say to keep the entertainment up.

[Stormcall]

Actually, there is plenty of need for one. Cause guess what? I play both HoTs and LoL but ignore e-sports for both! It's biased because it makes two assumptions, 1) there are only HoTs players and 2) Only HoTs players are allowed to know about e-sports. While this forum may be about HoTs it is not exclusive to HoTs players.

Are you high or stupid? It's not making ANY assumptions. The poll is MEANT FOR HOTS PLAYERS. If you play LoL, or DotA, or Smite, or whatever is totally, absolutely, 100% fucking IRRELEVANT. Nobody is assuming there's only HotS players, but the discussion is directed to HotS players. The OP doesn't give a flying fuck if you watch LoL or DotA games, cause it's irrelevant to what he is asking about, which is, do you watch HotS esports. When someone says "GoT fans, let me ask you a question", they aren't assuming people don't watch other shows.

[Baelic]

Are you high or stupid? It's not making ANY assumptions. The poll is MEANT FOR HOTS PLAYERS. If you play LoL, or DotA, or Smite, or whatever is totally, absolutely, 100% fucking IRRELEVANT. Nobody is assuming there's only HotS players, but the discussion is directed to HotS players. The OP doesn't give a flying fuck if you watch LoL or DotA games, cause it's irrelevant to what he is asking about, which is, do you watch HotS esports. When someone says "GoT fans, let me ask you a question", they aren't assuming people don't watch other shows.

My biggest issue, and why I say it assumes, is the "I'm just here to troll" option in the poll. As it assumes anyone who doesn't fit it either category is a troll.

Because technically, I would fit in the "I don't watch Heroes e-sports" category myself.