Why blizzard nerfed TANKS AOE damage when its the lazy dps fault

[Orrin]

As a Fire Mage I have to talent into AoE damage to deal damage comparable to one some classes deal by just pushing one button. Granted, they are not tanks, but tanks numbers seem high on trash. If you have survivability, you shouldn't have as much damage.

[Nethlord]

From a blue post on the frontpage: "tanks should be very sturdy and effective at killing things, but too often their damage output rivals that of pure damage dealers"
Has nothing to do with lazy dps underperforming.

This..all day long.

I don't know where this notion that to be able to perform effectively as a tank...you have to also function as the dps? Even from a design standpoint when tanks were hitting like wet noodles...the point I always figured would be to just craft tank specs as a nieche....but super important playstyle for the rest of the game. Something, let's say a warrior would fall into when the time was right (dps all day as fury or arms, then seamlessly fall into playing a tank when the time arises).

But that's what they were doing already!! I hear you about to say. Not really, tanks were doing BOTH jobs...some even didn't need heals. I watched a Blood DK solo the dragon boss in H violet hold from 11million. No healer, no dps...just him and the boss. Being ALL the specs means....well what is the point of doing content anymore as a dps class...or a healer? We might as well all roll tank specs and solo content alone (to thresholds of course, which then leaves you twiddling your thumbs because who bother to level anything else right?)

Let's play the adverse card for the day and put this scenario on the table. Tomorrow, Blizzard tunes my Warlock in such a fashion that I can tank...really well....but also takes zero of my dps abilities away. You queued up to tank....but I end up doing the tanking....the dps....the healing (because I still have my shields AND now tons of tanky like abilities). How would that make you feel? (not the tagged person above...just tanks in general) Love playing that tank anymore? Someone, who shouldn't be playing your role in the dungeon is...much better than you. I mean you then...must just be a terrible player right? Enjoy your long queues TANK! failtanks boohoo...

Sorry that got away from me at the end....but notice the parallels?

Tanks should be tanks, healers should be healers, dps should be dps. Why is this such a hard concept to accept?

[Zoldor]

A lot of tank dps in 5 man AE situations comes from the tank being in charge of the pacing. They make the pull they determine their cds better, and they get the drop on the adds before most ranged dps. I've not had a problem with melee beating me on trash. As a warrior I'm rarely on top unless the class I'm with is just playing badly. I'm never top on ST.

I feel a blanket is wasteful, but not overly meaningful. 5 mans are a bad place to be determining damage and so is trash. It is trash, who cares who is winning on those pulls and 9/10 the guy pulling is going to get the jump on dps over someone still running to reach the pack. Also, as a tank I don't have to dodge shit for the most part. It has so little to do with actual damage output and nerfing it because of 5 man trash is pretty wasteful.

Seeing one Blood DK solo a H VH boss does not make a good enough info pattern for determining tank damage to be out of line. He's probably rocking Mythic Gear and Legendary and the boss suits him. Blood healing is fairly nerfed. And really what stops hunters from using their pets with growl to tank trash or Warlocks to tank trash with their infernals or blueberries. It works I've done it. So that comparison is fairly trite. As again, trash dps doesn't actually matter only boss dps and abilities do. If you are loosing to a tank on a boss you are either bad, under geared, or getting a carry or there is a ton of tiny worthless adds that run in and die in a couple globals.

[Deleted]

I twink my dh as a tank right now and I just did my first dungeon. I didnt tank since BC but still was first in dps in Halls of Valor. Such a joke...
The damage output is way too sick

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for under performing , fine you want longer PVE dungeon runs DPSers your wish is granted

You sir, are an idiot!

Do you know how hard it is as a Warlock to keep up with the fucking tank? I dont underperform, I just cant keep up with most dps no matter how hard I try. Tanks are 2 or 3 in dps in many dungeons, which is just wrong

[ShiyoKozuki]

There is a lot more to be said but the amount of bias and misinformation in this thread is so mind boggling it's not even worth wading through to try and elaborate to people who are misinformed on game/tank mechanics in general as to why they are wrong.

Agreed. I gave up after 15 posts.

[Woop Woop]

I was actually outdpsed by a DH tank on the first boss in Maw of Souls mythic. I did ~160k, he did 5 or 10k more than me, granted there were adds he could aoe and I could not, plus the fact that I didn't have Surrender to Madness. I did the best I could with the gear I was given, was around 830 at the time. Tank damage is just crazy right now, is 160k that low for 1 target since we have no way of boosting numbers when 10 low hp adds spawn like tanks/melees etc can? My gear wasn't very optimized, just want to know what is 'okay' and 'good' for bosses in mythic dungeons.

[ShiyoKozuki]

This..all day long.

I don't know where this notion that to be able to perform effectively as a tank...you have to also function as the dps? Even from a design standpoint when tanks were hitting like wet noodles...the point I always figured would be to just craft tank specs as a nieche....but super important playstyle for the rest of the game. Something, let's say a warrior would fall into when the time was right (dps all day as fury or arms, then seamlessly fall into playing a tank when the time arises).

But that's what they were doing already!! I hear you about to say. Not really, tanks were doing BOTH jobs...some even didn't need heals. I watched a Blood DK solo the dragon boss in H violet hold from 11million. No healer, no dps...just him and the boss. Being ALL the specs means....well what is the point of doing content anymore as a dps class...or a healer? We might as well all roll tank specs and solo content alone (to thresholds of course, which then leaves you twiddling your thumbs because who bother to level anything else right?)

Let's play the adverse card for the day and put this scenario on the table. Tomorrow, Blizzard tunes my Warlock in such a fashion that I can tank...really well....but also takes zero of my dps abilities away. You queued up to tank....but I end up doing the tanking....the dps....the healing (because I still have my shields AND now tons of tanky like abilities). How would that make you feel? (not the tagged person above...just tanks in general) Love playing that tank anymore? Someone, who shouldn't be playing your role in the dungeon is...much better than you. I mean you then...must just be a terrible player right? Enjoy your long queues TANK! failtanks boohoo...

Sorry that got away from me at the end....but notice the parallels?

Tanks should be tanks, healers should be healers, dps should be dps. Why is this such a hard concept to accept?

Please learn how tanks and the game works before you complain. Complaints like this are why Blizzard is nerfing things that don't need nerfed.

[Saiyoran]

Tank single target was nowhere near DPS output, except maybe well-geared prot paladins. AoE may be pretty high, but that's of such little relevance in raids that nerfing them for dungeons is honestly stupid.

There's also the problem of it being a blanket nerf. Sure, paladins can put out decent single target, and demon hunters can do some crazy aoe given a big enough pack, but seriously who thought monks or druids needed a nerf? Their damage is in the gutter. Warriors were pretty middle of the pack, as were DKs post BB nerf, and definitely didn't need a single target damage nerf.

[Saberstrike]

Much as I love carrying sub 100k dps scrubs in my 5-mans as blood / vengeance, I have to say they do ruin every world pvp quest. I leveled up a rogue, and outside of instanced pvp where their abilities get toned down appropriately its not fun to die in 2-4 hits to a tank 4 other people have a hard time bringing down. Nerfs are needed, objectively, because while I understand wanting to quest / level / carry bad groups as a tank, it's getting a bit ridiculous.

This is coming from a tbc era tank, by the way. I still think buffing devastate to hit harder than unbuffed shield slam was stupid!

[Nethlord]

Please learn how tanks and the game works before you complain. Complaints like this are why Blizzard is nerfing things that don't need nerfed.

I am a tank! And I knew that this was going to the first response. My main DPS is a Warlock....my tank...is a druid. Tanks are absurd right now, from either side of the coin, the way they function currently are ruining the game. There needs to be more done to right the ship, they didn't go far enough.

[Deleted]

As a tank your job is not to do damage its to migrate it, stop crying it was a nerf well needed and i hope they nerf if more.

[Skorpionss]

I have never had problems being out damaged by the tank lol... albeit I am a Havoc DH and have 830 ilvl(which is mediocre at best), only tank that came close to me was a druid that had a dps legendary ring. Otherwise they don't compete... sad part is other dps don't compete either until boss fights where I've had a few here and there come close to me but way too few and on fights where they ignored mechanics and I had to run kill ads myself, alone.

[Zenotetsuken]

Yeah no I had a DH tank yesterday in Mythic VH pulling 220k dps as a tank on bosses. That's a problem. He was top DPS on those 4 man elite squad AoE pulls with 450-500k dps. My unholy AoE spam was only topping at 430k. Nothing to do with lazy. Back in Wrath tanks did like... maybe half the dps that dps specs did. Not 80-90% of the damage the dps did.

Back in Wrath, threat wasn't based off of damage, so doing almost no DPS wasn't an issue at all. They lowered threat generation, and raised damage to compensate, that's why they added the stacking Vengeance buff. They got rid of the Vengeance buff, so they needed to up Tanks baseline damage to be brought closer to DPS.
Of course a tank is going to have high DPS on AOE fights, a lot of their abilities cleave, because they need to hold threat of multiple enemies at the same time, since most DPS no longer understands how to attack the tanks target, and Blizzard can't be bothered to teach people how to play better.
Nerf specific class' abilities, not blanket nerf an entire role, because DPS feel like their special snowflake safe space is being encroached on.

[Locruid]

Please learn how tanks and the game works before you complain. Complaints like this are why Blizzard is nerfing things that don't need nerfed.

LOL you really believe Blizz reads the forums and thinks:

"Uh Oh People think Tank AOE too high better nerf em"

They may get a hint in the forums but you KNOW damn well they check their numbers across everything

Normal
Heroic
Mythic
Raids

Then throw in the Elites and the Rookies and make a judgement call.

[Xahz]

Really sucks shit as a Brewmaster considering high damage was something we used to have before Legion; now it's being nerfed again despite the fact that our damage is pretty crappy.

[cFortyfive]

And you think a 10% nerf is going to change that tho?

No it's a start although obviously blizzard won't go back on their design philosophy for tanks now.

[Saverem]

No it's a start although obviously blizzard won't go back on their design philosophy for tanks now.

Blizzard changes their philosophy for tanks literally every expansion. Name one expansion where they kept them the same as the previous.

[bufferunderrun]

Back in Wrath, threat wasn't based off of damage, so doing almost no DPS wasn't an issue at all. They lowered threat generation, and raised damage to compensate, that's why they added the stacking Vengeance buff. They got rid of the Vengeance buff, so they needed to up Tanks baseline damage to be brought closer to DPS.
Of course a tank is going to have high DPS on AOE fights, a lot of their abilities cleave, because they need to hold threat of multiple enemies at the same time, since most DPS no longer understands how to attack the tanks target, and Blizzard can't be bothered to teach people how to play better.
Nerf specific class' abilities, not blanket nerf an entire role, because DPS feel like their special snowflake safe space is being encroached on.

then bring back old threat generation for dungeon/ raid and make a dps buff that work only in open world to help them level without issue.

[Deleted]

I'll be surprised if they don't nerf BB some time soon, tbh. There is an EXCELLENT chance that they will considering a 10% nerf to BDKs only means they'll be ahead of the DPS my 18 million damage instead of 20 million...

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True, but no one was going "Let's fill our mythic group with 4 tanks instead of a tank and 3 DPS because their DPS is so high"

A tank is GUARANTEED 1 spot in a group whether they're doing 1 million DPS or 100 DPS. So nerfing their damage means slower dungeon times and harder Mythics/Mythic+s for everyone.

EVERYONE loses with a tank DPS nerf, not just the tank.

Blood Boil already got a 39% nerf in the prepatch, any further would probably gut the ability.

[BannedForViews]

Sounds like someone's mad they got nerfed, and this is coming from a Frost/Blood DK who loves to LFD spam as Blood. I'm surprised it wasn't more TBH - 10%? Pffft. I'll still beat 50-75% of people in LFD in overall damage done.

Well seeing as how most of Bloods damage is AoE, and not every dps spec is very good at aoe, I'm sure you are correct.