Guild Leaders: How to handle cliques?

[Paula Deen]

Just coming in to say Cliques in WoW form within guilds if a bunch of the guild is useless sacks of shit and never wanna do anything.

If a clique forms within the game its because Little Jimmy found those 4 wanted to play with him and the rest of the guild ignored him. They aren't harmful really unless Officers are involved who do LC or something.

[Littlepwny]

Now I could just see all the wannabe-hardass, item-level concerned, carrying-obsessed people blubbing, "B-b-b-but why does he get a set of heroic raid gear in a week for nothing? It's not fair! He got carried!" but progression-minded people do their best Peter Griffin and say, "oh my god, who the hell cares?"

Nobody was "carried" using the negative connotation of the word. A raiding Warlock was asked to change to Druid and you provided him with gear ("carried" him) so that he can carry you back.

So yeah, I expect serious progression minded guilds to be working toward the end goal, not whining about "carrying" some one else. If you're ACTUALLY "carrying" them, either they shouldn't be on your raid roster to begin with, or you're not a serious progression guild in the first place and then who the hell cares how you're handling anything?

You think OP is in a serious progression minded guild when people are bitching about Heroic/Mythic invitations?

[Huehuecoyotl]

You have a guild within your guild, by the sounds of it. From my experience, it isn't whether this blows up, it's when.

My advice would be to confront it. Talk to the people involved, explain that their activity is making them appear like they aren't part of the team, and that you really want them to be part of the larger group. Explain how it is making it more difficult to properly run the guild with them behaving that way. Ask them if they are prepared to get more involved, and be less detached.

Hell, point them to the studies of football teams that they did back in the 1970s. They showed that the most successful teams were the ones that had strong bonds across all the players. The teams that failed were broken down into small groups, with little connections between them. If they want the guild to succeed, they need to help you build those bonds across the entire team.

It's probably a coin toss what happens next; they might genuinely change, in which case great, the guild can go on from there. Or they might just up and leave. If they go for the second option then it was almost certainly going to happen anyway, and at least you are doing it in a controlled way. If they go off and start their own guild, it will probably fail quickly, since they will try and run it with their clique at the heart, and that will piss off anyone else that goes with them.

Just don't do nothing. If you leave this it will fester, and when it does blow up it will likely be more damaging.

Good luck!

[The Iron Fist]

OP it depends on the type of guild you're trying to run, but in most cases this is a very bad thing (unless you're a large casual guild that is composed of many cliques). TBH, the best thing you can do is recruit their replacements without telling them and just replace them when you have their spots filled and kick them out of the guild. You always have to think of the guild first. It seems a bit ruthless but just remember those types of players aren't loyal to the guild and therefor the guild owes them nothing in return. If they're not participating in the guild except for raids then they are just using you and using the guild. Nothing will destroy a guild faster than those types of players. I've been a Guild Master since BWL so I've learned a few things through trial and error. I've had it happen to me a couple times as a GM myself by allowing exclusive cliques to exist merely because they are good players and its never ended well. Best case scenario you lose a 1/3 of your guild and worst case the guild fractures. It's not a matter of if, but when, and how bad.

[callipygoustp]

@Trapped

Are they negatively impacting the raid? If they are not, then leave them the fuck alone.

I've dealt with guild management like you before and it fucking sucked: dictating in game behavior on people. Never ever EVER seen a successful guild with that style of management. You've got two options:
1. Stop being a controlling asshole and leave them alone, unless, and this is the key, they are negatively affecting your raid efforts.
2. Remove them from the guild now.

Honestly, if drama is starting over a clique playing together, you have much larger issues among your guild membership. I expect one way or the other they won't be with your guild for long.

[Deleted]

Seems like you're a control freak, tbh.

A guild is nothing but a large group of people raiding together, what they do outside of raiding is none of your business.

[The Iron Fist]

@Trapped

Are they negatively impacting the raid? If they are not, then leave them the fuck alone.

I've dealt with guild management like you before and it fucking sucked: dictating in game behavior on people. Never ever EVER seen a successful guild with that style of management. You've got two options:
1. Stop being a controlling asshole and leave them alone, unless, and this is the key, they are negatively affecting your raid efforts.
2. Remove them from the guild now.

Honestly, if drama is starting over a clique playing together, you have much larger issues among your guild membership. I expect one way or the other they won't be with your guild for long.

Don't listen to this guy. He's obviously never ran a guild or helped run one (or at least a successful one). Its this type of mentality that ends up destroying guilds in the long run.

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Seems like you're a control freak, tbh.

A guild is nothing but a large group of people raiding together, what they do outside of raiding is none of your business.

110% WRONG. If people are in a guild and only use it to raid, its every bit his business. Those types of members are leeches that always cause problems.

[Tankitbetter]

I'm shocked at the replies here.

Friends are not allowed to play with friends? WTF?

[The Iron Fist]

I'm shocked at the replies here.

Friends are not allowed to play with friends? WTF?

That's not what he's saying. What he's saying is:

1) those friends are choosing PUGs over guild members for their own runs
2) use their own VOIP and dont join the guilds except during raid
3) dont participate or interact with the guild except for raid
4) they're using the guild to further their own ends and have no consideration of how it impacts the guild
5) guilds inside guilds are a problem for 90%+ of guilds with rare exception

He's right to be concerned. Guild leaders and officers have to be proactive, not reactive. Reactive guild leadership leads to disbanding guilds 100% of the time.

[Tankitbetter]

That's not what he's saying. What he's saying is:

1) those friends are choosing PUGs over guild members for their own runs
2) use their own VOIP and dont join the guilds except during raid
3) dont participate or interact with the guild except for raid
4) they're using the guild to further their own ends and have no consideration of how it impacts the guild
5) guilds inside guilds are a problem for 90%+ of guilds with rare exception

He's right to be concerned. Guild leaders and officers have to be proactive, not reactive. Reactive guild leadership leads to disbanding guilds 100% of the time.

The only thing that is a problem here is #1. They should invite guildies to queue with them. Talk to them, ask them to do so, move on. #2-#5 are just fine.

Some people just like to be comfortable with their friends. Gkicking them because of it is hilariously stupid.

[The High Druid]

I'm shocked at the replies here.

Friends are not allowed to play with friends? WTF?

Yeah pretty much my thoughts on the matter too. Everyone seems to be basing their answers on the sort of guild they are a member of.

Here's a hint: Not all guilds are the same. For some guilds normal modes are progression for some mythics are easy. Some . . . well some don't even raid!

Now if progression is your goal, and people have been invited to the guild on that basis, and you're worried about gearing here's on thing you can try: Schedule "gearing nights" on what will be your normal raid nights. Make it clear the regular raid leaders will be assigning the groups and making sure everyone gets to go. Yes your tanks and healers are going to have a busy night, but if you stick to your regular raid schedule everyone should be able to stay for the duration, and if they can't it's an indicator you might have difficulty with raid attendance anyhow.

[The Iron Fist]

The only thing that is a problem here is #1. They should invite guildies to queue with them. Talk to them, ask them to do so, move on. #2-#5 are just fine.

Some people just like to be comfortable with their friends. Gkicking them because of it is hilariously stupid.

If you're going to join a guild, expect to be a member of it. If you just want to be by yourselves then start your own guild - simple as that. You're there to help your guild and its members, not yourself. If you are there just to help yourself then you're a terrible guild member and in that case should be kicked. This is true for any guild.

PS - You should only ask for feedback from people who've led guilds with more than 100 members as most people who haven't can't hope to possibly understand how to run a guild of that size. They think they can, but in reality have no clue whatsoever.

[Tankitbetter]

If you're going to join a guild, expect to be a member of it. If you just want to be by yourselves then start your own guild - simple as that. You're there to help your guild and its members, not yourself. If you are there just to help yourself then you're a terrible guild member and in that case should be kicked. This is true for any guild.

PS - You should only ask for feedback from people who've led guilds with more than 100 members as most people who haven't can't hope to possibly understand how to run a guild of that size. They think they can, but in reality have no clue whatsoever.

I've been a guild leader or an officer since WotLK. Currently the guild leader of a 700 account guild that I created over 3 years ago. I was the officer of a world first guild in late vanilla through early sunwell.

Allowing players their own safe spaces is important. I ask my raiders to help each other - and they do - but I don't threaten to gkick them because they like playing with their IRL friends. That's fucking retarded.

[The High Druid]

PS - You should only ask for feedback from people who've led guilds with more than 100 members as most people who haven't can't hope to possibly understand how to run a guild of that size. They think they can, but in reality have no clue whatsoever.

Can't see how that is at all relevant in this case, if it were that a large guild 5 people exclusively playing together wouldn't be so much of an issue - the other 95 could just let them get on with it.

[deadman1]

Friends playing a video game together, that sounds like a bunch of bullshit, you should physically force them to stop being friends and overstep your title as GM, pretend you are their father and make them play with other people.

Is this thread a fucking joke? I can't stand GMs that think they are important, get the raids together and live your life, this is a video game, you don't control anyone.

[callipygoustp]

Don't listen to this guy. He's obviously never ran a guild or helped run one (or at least a successful one). Its this type of mentality that ends up destroying guilds in the long run.

No, its the mentality shown by the OP that kills guilds. I am 100% certain that he's in a world 4000ish (or lower) guild that is never close to any kind of meaningful progression. Mainly because any serious guild doesn't give two shits about how people play outside of the raid. "Oh my god those guys are friends and they dungeon crawl by themselves!!! They are ruining our guild!!!" This type of problem is most definitely a problem that exists in casual/low-progression guilds. Progression level guilds wouldn't worry about it.

Of course, plenty of low end players are going to call out my attitude as elitist or bad, in this case synonymous. God forbid people play the game they want to play especially when the only negative affect is hurt feelings. High school, juvenile, antics by the non-clique members of the guild.

Note: a clique doing their own thing outside of raids is an entirely different matter from a clique that disrupts raid efforts.

[Itisamuh]

And this is why I will never be part of a serious guild again, nor will I ever be a raider. No offense, but having friends should not be a bad thing.

[The Iron Fist]

I've been a guild leader or an officer since WotLK. Currently the guild leader of a 700 account guild that I created over 3 years ago. I was the officer of a world first guild in late vanilla through early sunwell.

Allowing players their own safe spaces is important. I ask my raiders to help each other - and they do - but I don't threaten to gkick them because they like playing with their IRL friends. That's fucking retarded.

(#1) This is the internet and you can claim anything. Maybe you are being truthful, but I fail to see how that matters. Most 700+ account guilds are spam invite guilds that are completely composed of a number of small cliques. You're in the 10% I was talking about.

(#2) Guilds are more than raid teams. Guilds are communities. That would be like living somewhere and reaping all the benefits without playing any taxes. You're leeching and hurting your community.

(#3) You're right, safe spaces are important, but if their only space is the safe space, thats a problem. From what the OP is saying is that these 4 people aren't helping the other raiders in the guild, only their small group. That's a problem. Cliques are OK and natural. Exclusive cliques where they ONLY hang out with their group of 4 and no one else in the guild is a huge problem. Thats a guild inside a guild which never, ever works out.

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No, its the mentality shown by the OP that kills guilds. I am 100% certain that he's in a world 4000ish (or lower) guild that is never close to any kind of meaningful progression. Mainly because any serious guild doesn't give two shits about how people play outside of the raid. "Oh my god those guys are friends and they dungeon crawl by themselves!!! They are ruining our guild!!!" This type of problem is most definitely a problem that exists in casual/low-progression guilds. Progression level guilds wouldn't worry about it.

Of course, plenty of low end players are going to call out my attitude as elitist or bad, in this case synonymous. God forbid people play the game they want to play especially when the only negative affect is hurt feelings. High school, juvenile, antics by the non-clique members of the guild.

Note: a clique doing their own thing outside of raids is an entirely different matter from a clique that disrupts raid efforts.

Your #1 problem here is thinking that Guilds are a means to a Raiding end. They aren't. Guilds succeed because they are community that works together and helps each other. Being a successful guild has nothing to do with how well they raid. Those are completely separate issues.

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And this is why I will never be part of a serious guild again, nor will I ever be a raider. No offense, but having friends should not be a bad thing.

If you're a selfish minded player whose only interest is your own, then you're 100% right - you shouldn't join or be in a guild because you're negatively effecting others who aren't yourself.

[Sierra85]

cliques are inevitable. it is human nature to form them.

[callipygoustp]

Your #1 problem here is thinking that Guilds are a means to a Raiding end. They aren't. Guilds succeed because they are community that works together and helps each other. Being a successful guild has nothing to do with how well they raid. Those are completely separate issues.

Of course, the false dilemma fallacy.

No, I don't think that guilds are a means to a raiding end. I acknowledge, as few others do, that there are a variety of guilds out there. I search out guilds based on what I am looking to accomplish. When I find a guild whose objectives match mine, I pursue them. I've almost always been in two guilds at the same time : one for hardcore raiding, one for friends and family. My expectations for interactions between members with in each guild type differs significantly. My expectations of a raiding guild are far narrower than my expectations of a friends and family guild.

Note : I described two types of guilds I join. That doesn't mean there are only two types of guilds out there.