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  1. #1721
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    But prot paladins are not the norm and everyone knows this which is why they are getting reigned in a little bit. I do think that right now people are relying on some very faulty information to make the general conclusions that the community has made. Most people are quoting sim numbers that are all over the place from one sim to another because talent choices, gear setup, fight style, ability usage, etc are all things that the sim producers are not drilling into on a micro scale. It is almost impossible for them to be DK experts, and warlock experts, and tank experts, etc. They are creating the tools and making sure they work correctly and it is up to the community to make sure the rotations are right, the gear, the talent choices, etc. Right now no one is really doing that. I mean I just loaded my character into AskMrRobot for example and it pulled 164k dps. Currently I am doing about 200k over 5 minutes on target dummies manually, so where is the %20 difference coming from? I quickly glanced at the rotation it has and there are some issues, like putting sudden doom procs above ghoul transform in the priority queue. I would need to also look at all of their implementations of the strikes to make sure their coefficients are correct, etc. It would take a ton of work and honestly I am playing the game right now.

    Essentially, there are people for which this does matter and they are doing the work (because it is their job). These people are in the extreme minority and they are holding all their information from the public because they have things at stake. (world first races and funding being tied to that). Then there are the people who think they are world first competitive but just have no real clue how far they are from that. I am talking about those guys who clear mythic but don't do things like have 6 day raid schedules, have three of their class leveled and played to the fullest to see which one gets the right legendary drop, etc. Then there are the casual people and the LFR people. To none of these does it matter that your only DK you have in your raid is doing 200k dps instead of 220k right now. All of those guilds are not going to be losing fights because of DPS numbers but rather because you stand in fire or don't do mechanics.
    No, those guild are going to be losing fights because YOU stand in fire, or because YOU don't do mechanics.
    *pushes you over and pisses on your face*

  2. #1722
    Quote Originally Posted by LeginNoslen View Post
    No, those guild are going to be losing fights because YOU stand in fire, or because YOU don't do mechanics.
    *pushes you over and pisses on your face*
    Haha.

    Seriously though, I think this would be a much more productive and enjoyable forum if people stopped whining and bitching by 50% and spent that time trying to get the simulators to work correctly for the DK class. If each class community spent time getting the sims right the community as a whole would be way more informed.

    Of course Blizzard could also just share their numbers but they will never do that.

  3. #1723
    Warchief Freedom's Avatar
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    So today while trying to get home as fast as possible after work, I ran for ~20seconds, and sprinted for ~7.... and felt like I could have done more. It feels bad when your IRL obese ass can move better in some ways than your toon can : \.

    "Oooh Wraith Walk lasts for 3 secs... and I sprinted more than double that length IRL earlier. And didn't get stuck in a doorway either. Do Blizzard's devs need to make me gain weight to better fit class fantasy? Kneecap me?"
    Last edited by Freedom; 2016-09-16 at 10:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Ok, I give up. This is pointless.
    Many Multitudes Online Constantly Harping About Minor Problems
    FIRE GIVES ME BIGGER BLOOD SHIELDS

  4. #1724
    I got into my Rogue for the first time since Legion launched today and it felt like playing on fast forward. It right then hit me how slow DK is.

  5. #1725
    Quote Originally Posted by RuneDK View Post
    HAHAHAHA.....nobody will bring a frost dk cause of SF in a raid. Unless there's a single add that needs to die immediately and even then bring two windwalkers. They have just as much burst with Strike of the Windlord and have much better utility.
    "Hey guys, one spot in raid left.. should we bring a DK?"

    -No, bring those 2 WW Monks instead.

    "..."

  6. #1726
    Quote Originally Posted by Direpenguin View Post
    "Hey guys, one spot in raid left.. should we bring a DK?"

    -No, bring those 2 WW Monks instead.

    "..."
    I don't think that would happen. Monk's ST is nothing special. They are AoE beasts but for Raids ST will be valued higher.

  7. #1727
    What minor traits are strongest (what relics should I look for)
    What major traits should I try to go for first?

    The OP is lacking information, we need a 1 stop shop guide for 'whats best'.

  8. #1728
    Quote Originally Posted by Ssateneth View Post
    What minor traits are strongest (what relics should I look for)
    What major traits should I try to go for first?

    The OP is lacking information, we need a 1 stop shop guide for 'whats best'.
    Frost DK: http://www.wowhead.com/guides/classe...frost/overview
    Unholy DK: http://www.wowhead.com/guides/classe...nholy/overview

    Frost DK: http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/frost-d...-pve-dps-guide
    Unholy DK: http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/unholy-...-pve-dps-guide

  9. #1729
    First night of raids are in as far as logs go....all I'm going to say is if there aren't major buffs at the end of the week I will be completely retiring my death knight.

  10. #1730
    I don't understand the stat priority. I understand that crit is good now because killing machine no longer affects Frost Strike, which now makes it quite valuable because we want our strongest skill to crit. What I don't understand is why killing machine is still considered valuable. It now only makes Obliterate, which hits disappointingly low, automatically critical hit. I don't understand, unless you're running with FSc, why we want crit and haste to get more KM procs. I understand that we want crit in order for our strongest skill, Frost Strike (and other skills), to critical hit, and haste for more RP generation while running with runic atinuation, but I don't see how either of them can compete with mastery, as mostly all our damage is Frost.

    Killing Machine feels extremely weak unless you have FSc. OK, it makes Obliterate crit, but Obliterate deals very little damage and is only valuable because of Rime and RP generation.
    Last edited by Wrien; 2016-09-21 at 01:34 PM.

  11. #1731
    Quote Originally Posted by RuneDK View Post
    First night of raids are in as far as logs go....all I'm going to say is if there aren't major buffs at the end of the week I will be completely retiring my death knight.
    RuneDK can i ask

    playing Beta as you did, knowing blizzard track record, seeing the writing on the wall

    are you actually surprised by the first night of logs?

    we had 1 FDK in our raid, he was rudely told (poor guy) after Ursoc "were not carrying your shit DPS, start gearing up your DH or find a new raid team" I never felt as bad for a player in my 12 years of playing WoW as i did then and even got into a Officer argument with the RL about how he handled it.

    i stated before Frost would need a 20-25% dmg increase to literally everything in order for it to be "competitve" (its a solid 38-41% lower than all other DPS at a minimum) and unless blizzard has a stock of nerfs ready for everyone i dont see them handing out buffs like that. finally bit the bullet this morning and spent the 51k AP i had saved for Frost as a "break glass in case of emergency" and dumped it all into Unholy (rank 22). it looks like Frost is done for this pre-tier maybe once NH is released it can be revisited

    #feelsbadman

  12. #1732
    Quote Originally Posted by Baddok21 View Post
    RuneDK can i ask

    playing Beta as you did, knowing blizzard track record, seeing the writing on the wall

    are you actually surprised by the first night of logs?

    we had 1 FDK in our raid, he was rudely told (poor guy) after Ursoc "were not carrying your shit DPS, start gearing up your DH or find a new raid team" I never felt as bad for a player in my 12 years of playing WoW as i did then and even got into a Officer argument with the RL about how he handled it.

    i stated before Frost would need a 20-25% dmg increase to literally everything in order for it to be "competitve" (its a solid 38-41% lower than all other DPS at a minimum) and unless blizzard has a stock of nerfs ready for everyone i dont see them handing out buffs like that. finally bit the bullet this morning and spent the 51k AP i had saved for Frost as a "break glass in case of emergency" and dumped it all into Unholy (rank 22). it looks like Frost is done for this pre-tier maybe once NH is released it can be revisited

    #feelsbadman
    I had beta, but barely tested. I don't like spoiling a lot so I try to prevent myself from playing beta...Although I also didn't like the scaling mechanism instead of just creating a level 110 pve realm to raid test.

    With that said, I will absolutely say I am surprised and I'm not. From how things were handled through beta I wasn't surprised in the least bit. Reasons behind being surprised is the fact that it's not like it's the first week the expansion came out where you can easily just re-allocate. We had to purposely not invest into the Frost artifact to possibly see where it landed. And just the fact that artifacts right now are huge investments no spec should really be slogging 20%+ every fight. The biggest thing on why I'm not surprised is because the last actual tuning build of Legion was like July 12th and they fixed all the bugs that made frost do competitive dps but never reimbursed any of what was lost. Considering the two bugs were groundbreaking towards Frost's DPS it's still a bit of a shocker. However ultimately I'm not that shocked...their track record of balance has always been a joke...however this was the first expansion where I was truly hopeful for frost due to a lot of the stat scaling changes....sad part is it didn't help the spec in the slightest.

  13. #1733
    still gonna run Frost in 5-mans, the burst will be good there

  14. #1734
    Quote Originally Posted by Life-Binder View Post
    still gonna run Frost in 5-mans, the burst will be good there
    Unholy has as good if not better burst....

  15. #1735
    Immortal hellhamster's Avatar
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    I'm probably the biggest advocate of frost out there with numerous #1 wol ranks to support that, and running frost yesterday made me realize that it's never been this shit. Single target that is (I ended at 190k on Ursoc at 849 ilvl) cleave and aoe I found myself doing decent. But other than that the spec desperately needs a drastic buff to obliterate and Rime.
    Last edited by hellhamster; 2016-09-22 at 06:44 AM.

  16. #1736
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesquish View Post
    I use it for KM on pure ST, Damage is still slighty more than Fsc and you get the chance at Rime
    May I ask? What is ST? I tried figure what is it.
    Frost > unholy!
    I follow up on you and research everything about frost. My raid leader got impressed with my frost DK. I didn't know about you until after raid, I started research and found you. I looked through your stuff on wow progress. You did amazing out there. Keep it up!

  17. #1737
    The problem is that our single target damage is fucking ATROCITOUS. Most of the bosses in Emerald Nightmare require you to kill single things as fast as possible (nythaendra single target, eye has to be bursted down single target, ursoc, etc). How the fuck is frost suposed to do that if his entire single target mechanic is fucked? We managed to go by on mythics because we can easily put out a ton of aoe dps with mindlessly spamming frostscythe into the biggest amount of monsters possible, but how the fuck do we do single target damage?

    Seriously, do we even have a good single target focused talent spec right now? We can either do

    -the retarded resource choke WITH frostscythe (THATS AN A O E TALENT)

    -retarded resource choke with RUNIC POWER GENERATION (that gives WAY more frost strikes and actually lets you press shit) which decreases the efficiency of the choke, so it ALMOST EVENS OUT WITH AN AOE DESIGNED TALENT

    -or go for the merry-go-round build with shattering strikes or murdering efficiency/freezing fog or horn/runic attenuation/glacial advance (both of the other talents are so bad that you cant even consider them, 2 minutes cooldown on breath? at this point it shouldn't even have a cooldown, just be a toggle and an option to make you not use frost strike EVER) that deals LESS damage than the aforementioned kind of aoe builds

    Yesterday on ursoc i fucking tried, tried so hard to do the utmost damage possible, flasks+enchants+ classic kripparian button spam strategies, all i could do was 220k with 850 gear. If i was unholy, i think 280k wouldnt be that of a long shot.
    Last edited by loanel; 2016-09-22 at 12:12 PM.

  18. #1738
    Warchief Freedom's Avatar
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    So why do I see some F DKs like Phenom running Icy Talons without Runic Attenuation? Is there a certain gear level you need so it outpaces Shattering Strikes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Ok, I give up. This is pointless.
    Many Multitudes Online Constantly Harping About Minor Problems
    FIRE GIVES ME BIGGER BLOOD SHIELDS

  19. #1739
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    So why do I see some F DKs like Phenom running Icy Talons without Runic Attenuation? Is there a certain gear level you need so it outpaces Shattering Strikes?
    You use IT for frozen pulse.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Daedhrognir View Post
    May I ask? What is ST? I tried figure what is it.
    Frost > unholy!
    I follow up on you and research everything about frost. My raid leader got impressed with my frost DK. I didn't know about you until after raid, I started research and found you. I looked through your stuff on wow progress. You did amazing out there. Keep it up!
    ST = Single Target

  20. #1740
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedhrognir View Post
    May I ask? What is ST? I tried figure what is it.
    Frost > unholy!
    I follow up on you and research everything about frost. My raid leader got impressed with my frost DK. I didn't know about you until after raid, I started research and found you. I looked through your stuff on wow progress. You did amazing out there. Keep it up!
    After getting around 850 Ilvl with proper relics, I'm at the point where Oblit is nearly worthless on even ST with KM...So I would change that part of my post.

    When we get 2pc tier, Oblit might make its way back in. but as of now, KM with Scythe.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    So why do I see some F DKs like Phenom running Icy Talons without Runic Attenuation? Is there a certain gear level you need so it outpaces Shattering Strikes?
    I would have probably ran SS on Ursoc and 1st boss, but Having to hearth out to Runeforge is honestly one of the most stupid idea's every put in the game.(Meanin why put a talent requiring you to change them, when there isnt a portable toy or such).

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