Why blizzard nerfed TANKS AOE damage when its the lazy dps fault

[Schizoide]

That could easily be solved with just not allowing more then 1 tank and healer in a Mythic.

If the "meta" for succeeding at high mythic+ ranks is 4 tanks and a healer, I strongly suspect they will do just that.

[Halyon]

Why is it the tanks fault that you don't have large scale AoE?

...because the tools we have can't crank out more. When I tanked on my own DH, I was winning every single aoe fight. And often 2nd or 3rd on dps meters single target. That's all kinds of wrong, since dps is pretty much not needed, and it doesn't have anything to do with them being lazy. It has been consistantly that way, and every single dps in existance is not lazy, and it's ridiculous to think so.

Edit: Even now, I sometimes lose on aoe as dps DH, and I'm never lazing about. Granted, not running fel barrage atm, because I prioritize ST dps a bit more, and the gain I get from taking the ST cd over barrage in that tier, outweighs the overkill on aoe.

By lose I mean 2nd or third place on meters, depends if there's a monk around too. And DH are in a very good spot in terms of dps atm, so it's not like it's a bad benchmark. Tanks should not be reaching that benchmark on average.

[Hctaz]

...because the tools we have can't crank out more. When I tanked on my own DH, I was winning every single aoe fight. And often 2nd or 3rd on dps meters single target. That's all kinds of wrong, since dps is pretty much not needed, and it doesn't have anything to do with them being lazy. It has been consistantly that way, and every single dps in existance is not lazy, and it's ridiculous to think so.

I'm glad somebody understands this.

Calling the dps lazy is absurd. Dps specs are usually much more complex than tanking in terms of optimal damage output so it's completely ridiculous to imagine that a tank spec should be able to spam a few buttons and do more damage than a dps spec. I'm not saying tanking is mindless though. The design is clearly there. Most tanks have the choice between damage and mitigation and a smart tank will perform just enough mitigation to survive while also doing as much damage as possible to optimize kill times. That is fine but an overgeared tank should not be able to push their 2 pure damage buttons and do comparable damage to dedicated dps specs.

[Deleted]

an overgeared tank should not be able to push their 2 pure damage buttons and do comparable damage to dedicated dps specs.

And the reason for that is what? Because YOU don't want it to be? I want overgeared tanks to outdps lesser geared DDs. What now? Is your opinion more important?

Fact is, most ppl don't want to tank. Especially not for lazy ass random DDs, who are a) bad player and b) a good chunk of the time afk.
And if we tank for randoms, you guys cry for nerfs. Great idea!

We should use your argument and cry that DDs are to sturdy and have to much healing power.

I claim for DDs to have decent downtimes after each and every mob you kill by yourself. It is not right that you can tank 3 mobs as a non tank spec. You should be a glass canon an nothing more! Same goes for your healing, as you are clearly no healing spec!

[Thetruth1400]

Yeah no I had a DH tank yesterday in Mythic VH pulling 220k dps as a tank on bosses. That's a problem. He was top DPS on those 4 man elite squad AoE pulls with 450-500k dps. My unholy AoE spam was only topping at 430k. Nothing to do with lazy. Back in Wrath tanks did like... maybe half the dps that dps specs did. Not 80-90% of the damage the dps did.

Yep, that's exactly it. There's no reason for DPS to be near the DPS of a DPS spec constantly. If they are, that's game flaw.

If it's happening once or twice, yeah, that's potentially a player issue. When it's happening every time, the game is at fault.

As far as I'm concerned, tanks need to be coming in around 75% of the DPS of a DPS class. If not, there's really no reason to bring a DPS as a group of 4 tanks and a healer are going to be doing just as much damage with the added benefit of extremely boosted survival. That's just downright flawed. I don't buy their, "But a tank needs to be able to kill stuff" nonsense, because if that was the case, Healers should also be putting out the same kind of DPS numbers. All that says nothing for PvP, where things are just as, if not more, broken.

Tanks need to tank, Healers need to heal, DPS need to DPS. It's as simple as that. It needs to come from a design prospective, or they might as well just do away with the 1 tank / 1 healer / 3 dps composition they've had since the start.

[Halyon]

And the reason for that is what? Because YOU don't want it to be? I want overgeared tanks to outdps lesser geared DDs. What now? Is your opinion more important?

Fact is, most ppl don't want to tank. Especially not for lazy ass random DDs, who are a) bad player and b) a good chunk of the time afk.
And if we tank for randoms, you guys cry for nerfs. Great idea!

We should use your argument and cry that DDs are to sturdy and have to much healing power.

I claim for DDs to have decent downtimes after each and every mob you kill by yourself. It is not right that you can tank 3 mobs as a non tank spec. You should be a glass canon an nothing more! Same goes for your healing, as you are clearly no healing spec!

A low-geared dps has downtime between kills, depending on the size of the pack. As a tank you can chain pull constantly and never fall below 70% health, while doing comparable damage to a dps. So why does dps even exist if you find this scenario just fine? Why not just have tanks and healers as the only choices, since being a dps is a downgrade from a tank.

How can you not see that this is braindead?

And by your logic, no class whatsoever should be able to heal outside first aid and healing specs, yet some tanks rely on self-healing to tank. Cough Demon Hunters cough, Death Knights, cough, etc... They can do content nobody else can, solo, because they can mitigate, self-heal AND do good dps at the same time. So maybe just make every class and spec in the game a tank spec shall we? Since, you know, this is all fair in your head...

As a Demon Hunter, I would love to start nagging that we don't have any self-healing tools outside a passive and a long-cd, talented, ability, that only works if we live through the mob/s to begin with, thus only reducing downtime, not uptime as dps and soloing content, but I digress...

[middling]

Yep, that's exactly it. There's no reason for DPS to be near the DPS of a DPS spec constantly. If they are, that's game flaw.

Tanks need to tank, Healers need to heal, DPS need to DPS. It's as simple as that. It needs to come from a design prospective, or they might as well just do away with the 1 tank / 1 healer / 3 dps composition they've had since the start.

I agree to a point. the problem is with Blizzard's crappy artifact design where you don't share point across specs, when I want to tank, my DPS artifact suffers, when I want to DPS my tanking artifact suffers. Therefore, their solution, right or wrong, was to make it viable to level as TANK or HEALER and still do adequate DPS. The issue really should be solved by lowering DPS for tank specs in GROUPS but not across the board.

Now, it makes me debate leveling up a tanking spec, which further depletes the dungeon finder of tanks.

I don't really enjoy tanking but I do it for the quick queue times for dungeons.

However, this expansion I feel like if I want to EVER tank I need to invest points into my tanking artifact, which makes the DPS artifact less desirable.

My solution would be to continue to allow tank specs to do high DPS when Solo and lower DPS when in groups.

[Mercane]

I mean just yesterday, I found a Frost DK who asked for some tips and I saw his artifact traits and it was a gigantic mess! He even skipped the Gold traits for minor traits!

You can't say 'Frost DK' and 'good DPS' in the same sentence.

They're just really sub-par right now.

[Deleted]

A low-geared dps has downtime between kills, depending on the size of the pack. As a tank you can chain pull constantly and never fall below 70% health, while doing comparable damage to a dps.

Low geared tanks do really bad dps. Even if they pull bigger groups, they have more or less the same killspeed. Fact is, tanks have to pull groups to be effective.
I'm playing Legion since FaF alpha and I leveled alot chars / specs with 680 start gear. I never hat ANY downtimes.

So why does dps even exist if you find this scenario just fine?

You are talking about leveling / fresh 110 wq-content. If that is your reason why tanks shouldn't do meaningfull dps, than I have no words for you.

Why not just have tanks and healers as the only choices, since being a dps is a downgrade from a tank.

I NEVER said anything about a DD not doing more DPS than a tank in a group- / raid-scenario. I don't know where you read this bs in my post.

[Snuffleupagus]

The solution here for tanks is to avoid LFG and make your own groups. As you are a tank, this will not be hard.

At the end of the day, if people are too retarded to realise that tanks only shine on AoE damage, we need to avoid those people and reduce the number of them crying to Blizzard.

And at the current state of things, if the tank is beating you on ST damage on a boss fight (which is the only metric we should be using here, as it removes ramp up time as an issue), then you're probably just shit. Learn to play.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

I have never had problems being out damaged by the tank lol... albeit I am a Havoc DH and have 830 ilvl(which is mediocre at best), only tank that came close to me was a druid that had a dps legendary ring. Otherwise they don't compete... sad part is other dps don't compete either until boss fights where I've had a few here and there come close to me but way too few and on fights where they ignored mechanics and I had to run kill ads myself, alone.

Same case on my Outlaw rogue, the only things that can beat me are DHs and Fire mages(AoE, ST, sustain and burst). Play a sub-par spec and you'll see what the issue is, my main is prot/ret and I easily pull the same or more dps as prot in any given pull. The 10% nerf probably isn't the best solution, but it also really isn't large enough to be looked at as the end of the world.

[Deleted]

And by your logic, no class whatsoever should be able to heal outside first aid and healing specs, yet some tanks rely on self-healing to tank. Cough Demon Hunters cough, Death Knights, cough, etc...

You should see a doctor. Maybe its just a chill, but better be save than sorry!

To you self healing problem - sure, just cut it and reduce the dmg taken for DH / DK so they stay as viable as they are now with their self healing. Some emergency tools for raid situations and they are good to go without self healing.

They can do content nobody else can, solo, because they can mitigate, self-heal AND do good dps at the same time. So maybe just make every class and spec in the game a tank spec shall we? Since, you know, this is all fair in your head...

I think now we come to your real issue. You don't want tanks to do things, you cannot.

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The 10% nerf probably isn't the best solution, but it also really isn't large enough to be looked at as the end of the world.

You are right, but I hate it when I have to pay for the inability and ignorance of other player.

As a tank there isn't much left. They took our support, cutted our def CDs and self healing and now they are nerfing our dps.
I mean what are we supposed to do? Stand there with the boss and doing nothing, so that our healer / DDs are happy?
I pay the same amount of money to pay the game and I play the most important role in the raid. Better make sure I don't have any fun at it. -.-

[Halyon]

You should see a doctor. Maybe its just a chill, but better be save than sorry!

To you self healing problem - sure, just cut it and reduce the dmg taken for DH / DK so they stay as viable as they are now with there self healing. Some emergency tools for raid situations and they are good to go without self healing.



I think now we come to your real issue. You don't want tanks to do things, you cannot.

No, this is what I hear others yapping about. I'm fine with overlap myself, but when that overlap starts to be so great that it makes one group of builds borderline obsolete, then it becomes an issue.

I've been running a lot of mythics lately, both with guild groups and pugs. Tanks are in the top end, if not first on aoe fights, which is most of the time in dungeons, this is consistant. I can sometimes out-do the tank in dps, depends on class and gear level. On equal ilvl, with a random tank class, it's give and take. On bosses, a tank can outright compensate for a low-dps party-member (an actual dps class), like if you're boosting a guildy voluntarily, or if they plain suck, but they tend to be booted from the group qat that point.

I don't particularly mind this, but it doesn't really come at a cost for the tank, as they're just doing their usual thing, I experienced the same thing while I tried tanking myself, that, I do mind. Because then the scenario for mythic+ with 4 tanks and a healer becomes appealing to actually do. Why bother with squishy dps when a tank can do their job AND take a lot more punishment in the same turn?

Raw power doesn't always matter depending on the mechanics at play, and bosses are rarely a problem anyway, it's the trash that takes most of the time, and tanks win there. DPS doesn't matter if you're dead. Dps dies easier than tanks. Logic. If a tank can also do the average dps's job...what's the point in bringing them? Why the extra fuss if the dps will even live, if you can heal them, when a tank can do their job adequately and live a lot easier?

As a tank there isn't much left. They took our support, cutted our def CDs and self healing and now they are nerfing our dps.
I mean what are we supposed to do? Stand there with the boss and doing nothing, so that our healer / DDs are happy?
I pay the same amount of money to pay the game and I play the most important role in the raid. Better make sure I don't have any fun at it. -.-

Well ain't your ego inflated... You wouldn't last long without those healers at your back, matey...

Your job as a tank is to keep the beat-sticks off the other people in your group/raid, and make sure you don't drop like a sack of potatos before you can be healed. Your job is often to control were the positionings should go if it's targetted in a cone, ad packs needs to be picked up, damage needs to be soaked.

Your job is not to do the job of every single class in the game alone, otherwise there's no point in having distinct roles and a standard group set-up. But I can see why your ego might obscure your vision...

[Deleted]

Well ain't your ego inflated... You wouldn't last long without those healers at your back, matey...

Oh it has nothing to do with my ego. Maybe I don't chose the right words, as my english is not the best, but every raid is centered around the tank.
Your mistakes most of the time has the biggest impact for the fight, often leading to a wipe. I'm talking about mythic raiding, not hc / nhc / lfr or WQs.

In dungeons you set the pace. If you are to slow, some DD will let you know. If you are to fast, you'll wipe the group. Again, you are in the spotlight.

That is what I mean when I say, tanks got the most important role in the raid.

---

For your 4 tank 1 healer problem - just disable the option to have more than 1 tank specced player in a mythic / mythic+ dungeon, more than 2 tank specced player in a raid.
If that isn't possible due to game restrictions, give Dungeons / Raids an aura wich will reduce the dmg output of tanks by 25-30%, if there are more than the above mentioned number of tank specced player in a raid / dungeon.

To be clear, I'm strongly agains cheesing encounter by any absurd number of tanks / healer!

[Biggles Worth]

Tanks are much more survivable than DPS specs, and have a ton of tricks and utility too. If they also deal more damage than the DPS, the ideal team for mythic+ would be 4 tanks and a healer.

Actually, since zone success timers in mythic+ aren't particularly tight like old challenge modes, barring enrage timers on bosses, it may be better to take 4 tanks and a healer post-nerf too.

I'm running mythics with damage dealers that are doing 2x-3x+ more damage than I am on aoe mobs and single target.

[Deleted]

Your job as a tank is to keep the beat-sticks off the other people in your group/raid, and make sure you don't drop like a sack of potatos before you can be healed. Your job is often to control were the positionings should go if it's targetted in a cone, ad packs needs to be picked up, damage needs to be soaked.

So you really think a tank should be the meatshield for the raid. Can't you see that this would be extremely boring?

Your job is not to do the job of every single class in the game alone, otherwise there's no point in having distinct roles and a standard group set-up. But I can see why your ego might obscure your vision...

What is you problem with my ego? I mean, you clearly don't know me. So why do you have to be personal?

[Sandrox]

DPS complain about queue times, yet at the same time are completely fine with them nerfing tanks so no one wants to play them, which increases queue times even more. Great idea guys!

[Halyon]

So you really think a tank should be the meatshield for the raid. Can't you see that this would be extremely boring?

What is you problem with my ego? I mean, you clearly don't know me. So why do you have to be personal?

...yes, that's your job as a tank. What exactly do you not understand about that? Don't like it? Don't play a tank or get your feelings hurt when it gets adjusted towards that end.

And I will get personal with you when you get personal with me. You assumed things about my standpoint, I assume things about your standpoint.

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DPS complain about queue times, yet at the same time are completely fine with them nerfing tanks so no one wants to play them, which increases queue times even more. Great idea guys!

I'm a-ok with que times, because I understand that there are way more dps queing than tanks, and there are more dps needed than tanks. Not an issue to me.

[Borfl]

Tanks should've continued to be designed around managing threat, debuffs, cc, positioning, interrupts, mitigation. Not this bullshit meterwhoring we have today.

Tanks doing even remotely as much damage as an okay DPS is ridiculous.

[Deleted]

Tanks should've continued to be designed around managing threat, debuffs, cc, positioning, interrupts, mitigation.

If that would be the case, than tanks would have an amazing job. Sadly alot of things changed, so everybody could tank a dungeon or a raid.
Although I think it is good to make tanks starter friendly, I wish to have something meanigful to do.
Since they cut our utility, mitigation and the whole thread thing, we have nothing to do.
So I like to do some real DPS to help my team kill a boss faster. If I am not allowed to do so, fine. Just give me something else to do?