Does the Horde have diplomatic figures or a concept of Apology?

[Theodarzna]

I guess this is a critical thought about Orc lore specifically, but I guess it can apply to the whole Horde. Does Orcish culture have a concept of Diplomacy, or a concept of apology? It seems like a ton of conflict could have been avoided if Thrall's first action was to go to Stormwind and say "Yeah, my people fucked up badly, we wronged you badly, we are definitely going to make it up to you." Like do Orc's even learn about the First and Second War or do they just teach "HORDE DID NOTHING WRONG!!" as told by Metzen himself?

[Aquamonkey]

Would this be before or after the Alliance chased the orcs to the other side of the planet?

[Imnick]

Would this be before or after the Alliance chased the orcs to the other side of the planet?

To be fair this is after the orcs destroyed their own planet, invaded someone else's, and tried to kill everyone there.
Like... OP said, in the post you replied to, yet somehow missed.
It's not like they have perfectly clean hands here.

[Aquamonkey]

To be fair this is after the orcs destroyed their own planet, invaded someone else's, and tried to kill everyone there.
Like... OP said, in the post you replied to, yet somehow missed.
It's not like they have perfectly clean hands here.

They sure as hell wouldn't let Thrall walk into Stormwind, he'd be fired upon on sight. "Oh hey, it's one of those green things that busted out of our slave camps. Shoot it!"

[Theodarzna]

Would this be before or after the Alliance chased the orcs to the other side of the planet?

....... The mere fact that Orc's still live is already a borderline unbelievable level of mercy exercised by countries whom would never normally allow the tax money of its recently butchered people to continue to maintain the lives of creatures whom might serve no other purpose than as perpetual wards of a people who were once threatened with extermination by them.

[Sky High]

never going to happen because drama = plot, and while there are older Orcs that show regret for it it, I bet the vast majority either don't care or think it was justified one way or another. so no, on all accounts.

[Aucald]

They do, yes. Although the culture of the Orcs was clannish and nomadic, they often joined together all the clans in a specific observance (called the Kosh'harg) where the clan warriors traded stories, jokes, and achievements and the shaman across the clans venerated the ancestral and element spirits. As for Thrall and Stormwind specifically, I doubt he would've been welcome by the vast majority of the people there - it would've been dangerous to him and his guards as well as to the people in Stormwind he might have been visiting. There were several occasions where quasi-neutral venues were used for the Horde and Alliance leadership to meet - one of them happened in Theramore where Jaina guaranteed safety until the Twilight's Hammer mucked it up.

The Orcish leadership doesn't feel itself having any connection back to the Old Horde that participated in First and Second Wars, so they've never felt a need to apologize or make reparations of any kind. Thrall himself, however, chose Durotar as the Orc's new home in part because it was a harsh and hardscrabble land where the Orcs could collectively shrive themselves of the latent taint of the demons and make something new for their people. He believes that if they can thrive and make Durotar a home for their kind then they will have at least paid some penance for the damage done to Draenor.

That being said - the Orcs aren't long on diplomacy or the civilized arts. It is still a predominantly martial culture that values strength and honor above scholarly pursuits or the cultivation of alliances. Even the ties that bind the Horde together are more for mutual protection, and not really the exchange of ideas or society.

[Theodarzna]

never going to happen because drama = plot, and while there are older Orcs that show regret for it it, I bet the vast majority either don't care or think it was justified one way or another. so no, on all accounts.

I guess I over analyze it, clearly Orc's understand right from wrong to a degree, I guess its just bad writing.

[RedNight at MMOC]

Baine Bloodhoof and Anduin Wrynn are somewhat friends that were looking for peaceful solutions between the Alliance and the Horde. Not sure how that relationship is fairing now.

[Sky High]

I guess its just bad writing.

a heaping helping of it.

[Theodarzna]

They do, yes. Although the culture of the Orcs was clannish and nomadic, they often joined together all the clans in a specific observance (called the Kosh'harg) where the clan warriors traded stories, jokes, and achievements and the shaman across the clans venerated the ancestral and element spirits. As for Thrall and Stormwind specifically, I doubt he would've been welcome by the vast majority of the people there - it would've been dangerous to him and his guards as well as to the people in Stormwind he might have been visiting. There were several occasions where quasi-neutral venues were used for the Horde and Alliance leadership to meet - one of them happened in Theramore where Jaina guaranteed safety until the Twilight's Hammer mucked it up.

The Orcish leadership doesn't feel itself having any connection back to the Old Horde that participated in First and Second Wars, so they've never felt a need to apologize or make reparations of any kind. Thrall himself, however, chose Durotar as the Orc's new home in part because it was a harsh and hardscrabble land where the Orcs could collectively shrive themselves of the latent taint of the demons and make something new for their people. He believes that if they can thrive and make Durotar a home for their kind then they will have at least paid some penance for the damage done to Draenor.

That being said - the Orcs aren't long on diplomacy or the civilized arts. It is still a predominantly martial culture that values strength and honor above scholarly pursuits or the cultivation of alliances. Even the ties that bind the Horde together are more for mutual protection, and not really the exchange of ideas or society.

Orc's clearly deal with other races, like are they just so painfully ignorant they don't comprehend that the people wronged before are still pissed? Surely at some point they have had to interact with people with some concept outside that.

[StationaryHawk]

So you're suggesting that Thrall's first action, after having lived a life of slavery and then freed his people from internment camps, should have been to walk straight into a human city and hope they'll forgive him and his people instead of just capturing/killing him on sight?

Could he at least have sent a messenger instead?

[shimerra]

Orc's clearly deal with other races, like are they just so painfully ignorant they don't comprehend that the people wronged before are still pissed? Surely at some point they have had to interact with people with some concept outside that.

I don't think the guy who thought it was a good idea for Thrall to have walked up to Stormwind to apologize after he broke out of the interment camp gets to give anyone shit for being painfully ignorant. If anything the fact that he didn't run to apologize right away showed that they understood the alliance was still pissed better than you do.

Not to mention the interment camps themselves had a lot of abuses, so go figure he didn't think the people who'd spent a good while keeping you caged and treating you like shit are not the first people you run to say sorry to when you bust out of their cage. And while yes the Orcs being demon lacky's makes the alliance's treatment of the orcs understandable but it in no way shape or form justifies or excuses it.

[Theodarzna]

So you're suggesting that Thrall's first action, after having lived a life of slavery and then freed his people from internment camps, should have been to walk straight into a human city and hope they'll forgive him and his people instead of just capturing/killing him on sight?

Could he at least have sent a messenger instead?

..... At some point would he not stop to wonder "Man why didn't the humans just annihilate us after the first and second wars?"

Send envoys and gifts, or try to work out an agreement. Throughout all of Vanilla he had Jaina to go to and literally did nothing. Like is he ignorant of his peoples history? Those internment camps were practically a superhuman level of mercy. No King, or elected leader could go to his or her people and say "Actually a portion of your tax money, your hard work! will go for the maintenance and upkeep of a race of monsters that wanted to exterminate you all......" That King would be deposed in a day.

It's as if the Orc's live in a kind of collective amnesia.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think the guy who thought it was a good idea for Thrall to have walked up to Stormwind to apologize after he broke out of the interment camp gets to give anyone shit for being painfully ignorant. If anything the fact that he didn't run to apologize right away showed that they understood the alliance was still pissed better than you do.

Not to mention the interment camps themselves had a lot of abuses, so go figure he didn't think the people who'd spent a good while keeping you caged and treating you like shit are not the first people you run to say sorry to when you bust out of their cage. And while yes the Orcs being demon lacky's makes the alliance's treatment of the orcs understandable but it in no way shape or form justifies or excuses it.

Continuing to War and attempt to seize lands on a planet their kind invaded isn't exactly the olive branch of peace. Heck, in their new home they went and tried to kill a Demi-God and seize timber ect.

.... How good is one to treat someone you would be totally justified in just killing off? Idk, if someone broke into my house the murder rape everyone in it, and I chose to merciful not just kill him after defeating him idk if that intruder should complain that the handcuffs are too tight or I am not providing adequate snacks.

[Aucald]

Orc's clearly deal with other races, like are they just so painfully ignorant they don't comprehend that the people wronged before are still pissed? Surely at some point they have had to interact with people with some concept outside that.

They do, yes. But they don't have a long history of it, certainly not as long as the native Azerothian races. You have remember that before they were corrupted by the Legion they had almost no communication or trade with even the Draenei that had made Draenor their home - and the Draenei had been present for time out of mind, long enough for the Genedar to pass into myth and become the Orcish clans' most important spiritual location in Nagrand. The first race that the Orcs had felt a kinship with would be the Tauren of Mulgore, another people who were nomadic and clannish and bore many similarities to the culture of the Orcs. In a lot of ways the Orcs are a people who have been subject to an unwanted and unasked-for technological and societal uplifting - they often fail at diplomacy and alliance-building because they're not quite at that point yet, and they have a tendency to fall back on the modes of operating of a socially primitive group.

[Theodarzna]

They do, yes. But they don't have a long history of it, certainly not as long as the native Azerothian races. You have remember that before they were corrupted by the Legion they had almost no communication or trade with even the Draenei that had made Draenor their home - and the Draenei had been present for time out of mind, long enough for the Genedar to pass into myth and become the Orcish clans' most important spiritual location in Nagrand. The first race that the Orcs had every felt a kinship with would be the Tauren of Mulgore, another people who were nomadic and clannish and bore many similarities to the culture of the Orcs. In a lot of ways the Orcs are a people who have been subject to an unwanted and unasked-for technological and societal uplifting - they often fail at diplomacy and alliance-building because they're not quite at that point yet, and they have a tendency to fall back on the modes of operating of a socially primitive group.

So Orc's are just ignorant children playing with excessively dangerous weapons?

[StationaryHawk]

..... At some point would he not stop to wonder "Man why didn't the humans just annihilate us after the first and second wars?"

Send envoys and gifts, or try to work out an agreement. Throughout all of Vanilla he had Jaina to go to and literally did nothing. Like is he ignorant of his peoples history? Those internment camps were practically a superhuman level of mercy. No King, or elected leader could go to his or her people and say "Actually a portion of your tax money, your hard work! will go for the maintenance and upkeep of a race of monsters that wanted to exterminate you all......" That King would be deposed in a day.

It's as if the Orc's live in a kind of collective amnesia.

My point was more that it would be suicide for Thrall to go himself, although I'm sure the Alliance would have been more than happy to allow the orcs to live in peace. Back in the internment camps, that is.

[Oneirophobia]

I thought the Orcs lived in the awful desert as a form of repentance. Wasn't that one of Garrosh's quams with Thrall? "Rabblerabblerabble fuck everyone we should just move into Ashenvale theres no reason to feel shitty about what the demons made us do rabblerabble"

And then of course he went to Draenor and demonstrated demons have nothing to do with how awful and easily led to genocide Orcs are.

[Wondercrab]

This is more a Warcraft issue in general. Very few characters possess diplomatic problem solving skills. Of course, you do need to maintain conflict in a story like this, and the tension between the Horde and Alliance is historically a core part of the narrative, but its perpetuation often comes across as very forced and contrived -- largely because, as noted in the OP, many characters seem to lack a basic level of common sense and empathy.

There are ways they could make the conflict feel tense and believable, but it would require some clever storytelling and more fleshed out, three dimensional characters. It's actually been handled quite well in Legion so far since it's not actually a Horde/Alliance thing, but a personal crusade by Greymane (one which he has strong and believable motivations for).

[Aucald]

So Orc's are just ignorant children playing with excessively dangerous weapons?

That is a charge that could be laid at nearly every Warcraft race's feet in one sense or another, depending on one's perspective or ulterior motives. The Orcs are not as refined as the Elves, and not as community-building as the Human nations. They value strength and honorable conduct, and many of them find the requirements of diplomacy to be more akin to deceit than the speaking of truth (something that is also true although the fact remains that diplomacy is a necessary thing). They are finding their way in a strange world that is at once both externally and thematically hostile to their presence - a world they've adopted, and have fought alongside the native races of the world to protect. I guess one could say that for all they've done they deserve the right to try to prove themselves, and time will tell if they are successful.