Does the Horde have diplomatic figures or a concept of Apology?

[Theodarzna]

I thought the Orcs lived in the awful desert as a form of repentance. Wasn't that one of Garrosh's quams with Thrall? "Rabblerabblerabble fuck everyone we should just move into Ashenvale theres no reason to feel shitty about what the demons made us do rabblerabble"

And then of course he went to Draenor and demonstrated demons have nothing to do with how awful and easily led to genocide Orcs are.

.... A Desert that they then went and started pillaging other territories for resources from like immediately. I seem to recall this Elven forest place, were they immediately went for the stuff Durotar wouldn't give them. After all Thrall continued the invasion of Ashenvale and did nothing to stop it.

As for Demons, did not the Orc's drink the blood willingly?

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That is a charge that could be laid at nearly every Warcraft race's feet in one sense or another, depending on one's perspective or ulterior motives. The Orcs are not as refined as the Elves, and not as community-building as the Human nations. They value strength and honorable conduct, and many of them find the requirements of diplomacy to be more akin to deceit than the speaking of truth (something that is also true although the fact remains that diplomacy is a necessary thing). They are finding their way in a strange world that is at once both externally and thematically hostile to their presence - a world they've adopted, and have fought alongside the native races of the world to protect. I guess one could say that for all they've done they deserve the right to try to prove themselves, and time will tell if they are successful.

Where in the honor code does it say "Don't invade and try to genocide a planet, and if you do, its bad!" Or is their code lacking in that department, or a concept of just general Right and Wrong and making peace among themselves. I mean even the most primitive societies on earth have this basic concept of "I'm sorry," fuck it exists in every language on the planet, are the Orc's written to be just that dense?

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This is more a Warcraft issue in general. Very few characters possess diplomatic problem solving skills. Of course, you do need to maintain conflict in a story like this, and the tension between the Horde and Alliance is historically a core part of the narrative, but its perpetuation often comes across as very forced and contrived -- largely because, as noted in the OP, many characters seem to lack a basic level of common sense and empathy.

There are ways they could make the conflict feel tense and believable, but it would require some clever storytelling and more fleshed out, three dimensional characters. It's actually been handled quite well in Legion so far since it's not actually a Horde/Alliance thing, but a personal crusade by Greymane (one which he has strong and believable motivations for).

EXACTLY, Like who wrote this garbage? Legion is finally good, but even so, there is a lot of "OMFG are these leaders idiots?"

[Aquamonkey]

As for Demons, did not the Orc's drink the blood willingly?

There is such a thing as informed consent, which is not what happened.

[Theodarzna]

There is such a thing as informed consent, which is not what happened.

...... So the Orc's have a refined concept of Informed Consent but lack the ability to understand making amends for damages done?

Or a concept of gratitude for their very lives which honestly at the moment of conclusion in the Second War, the very fact that humans didn't just annihilate the Orc's then and their is like Mind Boggling.

In a better written world those Kings would have been toppled within a day for such an insane suggestion.

[Deleted]

To be fair this is after the orcs destroyed their own planet, invaded someone else's, and tried to kill everyone there.
Like... OP said, in the post you replied to, yet somehow missed.
It's not like they have perfectly clean hands here.

Not ones but twice

[Aliven]

never going to happen because drama = plot, and while there are older Orcs that show regret for it it, I bet the vast majority either don't care or think it was justified one way or another. so no, on all accounts.

Its almost like player base :P

[Aquamonkey]

...... So the Orc's have a refined concept of Informed Consent but lack the ability to understand making amends for damages done?

You are placing blame on them for that. We have the concept of informed consent. They were drugged into a rage without knowing fully what they were drinking.

Or a concept of gratitude for their very lives which honestly at the moment of conclusion in the Second War, the very fact that humans didn't just annihilate the Orc's then and their is like Mind Boggling.

WTF should Thrall have any gratitude to humans? He was enslaved as an infant and his clan had nothing to do with the wars.

Also since you're so keen on using morality to judge the Warcraft universe, mass-executing POWs is a war crime.

In a better written world those Kings would have been toppled within a day for such an insane suggestion.

For long months the forces of the Alliance worked to seek out the renegade Orcs that had gone into hiding after the fall of the Dark Portal. The Blackrock, Dragonmaw, and Black Tooth Grin clans were captured by the Alliance and herded into guarded reserves and prison camps. While the leaders of the Alliance argued over what was to be done with them, Orgrim Doomhammer, the Warchief of the Horde, was placed under arrest and kept as an honored prisoner under the care of King Terenas of Lordaeron. Some members of the Alliance pleaded that the Orcs should be exterminated like animals, while others opted for a sentence of life imprisonment.
Having discussed the obvious benefits of a treaty with Doomhammer, King Terenas fervently hoped that the Orcs could be kept pacified long enough to eventually lose their lust for conquest. Thoras Trollbane of Stromgarde and Genn Greymane of Gilneas both disagreed vehemently with Terenas, resolving that the Orcs were too great a threat to leave alive. After months of debate and frustration, both leaders withdrew the support of their nations from the Alliance. Azeroth alone stood fast in its commitment to the Alliance. Even with the dynamic young Varien Wrynn seated upon Azeroth’s throne, the distance between the kingdoms of Azeroth and Lordaeron made their union a hollow one.
--WC2X manual

[Topornic]

You seem to forget about the emissary sent to Dragonmaw in Cataclysm. That orcish try at "diplomacy" didn't end well though

[Theodarzna]

It's mind boggling that a civilization with a fairly noticeable affinity for the Light and 'honor' didn't end up genociding an entire race into extinction? o.O

Honestly it seems like you've spent the majority of this thread fishing to feed your conformation bias rather than anything productive.

A race of basically invading demons.

Strange Aliens that worship demons and served them are not exactly creatures worth saving from that vantage point.

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For long months the forces of the Alliance worked to seek out the renegade Orcs that had gone into hiding after the fall of the Dark Portal. The Blackrock, Dragonmaw, and Black Tooth Grin clans were captured by the Alliance and herded into guarded reserves and prison camps. While the leaders of the Alliance argued over what was to be done with them, Orgrim Doomhammer, the Warchief of the Horde, was placed under arrest and kept as an honored prisoner under the care of King Terenas of Lordaeron. Some members of the Alliance pleaded that the Orcs should be exterminated like animals, while others opted for a sentence of life imprisonment.
Having discussed the obvious benefits of a treaty with Doomhammer, King Terenas fervently hoped that the Orcs could be kept pacified long enough to eventually lose their lust for conquest. Thoras Trollbane of Stromgarde and Genn Greymane of Gilneas both disagreed vehemently with Terenas, resolving that the Orcs were too great a threat to leave alive. After months of debate and frustration, both leaders withdrew the support of their nations from the Alliance. Azeroth alone stood fast in its commitment to the Alliance. Even with the dynamic young Varien Wrynn seated upon Azeroth’s throne, the distance between the kingdoms of Azeroth and Lordaeron made their union a hollow one.
--WC2X manual

The two believable leaders, Trollbane and Greymane.

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WTF should Thrall have any gratitude to humans? He was enslaved as an infant and his clan had nothing to do with the wars.

Also since you're so keen on using morality to judge the Warcraft universe, mass-executing POWs is a war crime.

.... The fact that they didn't bash that baby on a rock as any sane person would have done. Mass executing POW's would be, Mass executing a literal Alien invasion that actually was the foot soldiers of a vast space demon army (Which is dumb in it of itself, but whatever) is a gray area.

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You are placing blame on them for that. We have the concept of informed consent. They were drugged into a rage without knowing fully what they were drinking.

And yet, with or without demon blood their behavior is pretty much the same.

[treice]

..... At some point would he not stop to wonder "Man why didn't the humans just annihilate us after the first and second wars?"

Send envoys and gifts, or try to work out an agreement. Throughout all of Vanilla he had Jaina to go to and literally did nothing. Like is he ignorant of his peoples history? Those internment camps were practically a superhuman level of mercy. No King, or elected leader could go to his or her people and say "Actually a portion of your tax money, your hard work! will go for the maintenance and upkeep of a race of monsters that wanted to exterminate you all......" That King would be deposed in a day.

It's as if the Orc's live in a kind of collective amnesia.

Just wanted to chime in on this "superhuman level of mercy" bit. First off, when the humans started rounding up the orcs and sticking them in internment camps, it wasn't like they were taking p.o.ws. The orcs had fallen into the "lethargy" at that point from their going through withdrawals from lack of demonic energies. The orcs that they rounded up were for the most part noncombatants at this point, which was why they were so easy to take and keep in camps.

The conditions in these camps were horrid. The orcs were often treated as little more than livestock, they lived in their own filth and were often time tortured and abused by their captors. I'm sure some might chime in "But the Alliance let them live omg so ungrateful!", but the fact is the orcs were done fighting at this point.

Thrall lived in one of the worst examples of these camps. The very name he was given was to remind him of the fact that he was a slave. He saw and experienced the cruelty of the Alliance first hand, and when he finally met his people again all he saw was listless lifeforms being abused by the same people who made his life hell.

One thing a lot of people tend to forget in their rush to hate on the orcs is that they didn't just wake up one day and decide to ruin Draenor, and then come pillage Azeroth. Everything that happened was caused by Kil'jaeden, who used the orcs as his instrument of vengeance against the Draenei. He took the guise of orcish ancestors to trick them into uniting against the Draenei, and eventually drinking the demon's blood.

So really, if anyone should be offering up an apology don't you think it should be Velen and the group of Draenei that fled from Argus? Every planet the Draenei landed on since they left Argus was destroyed by Kil'jaeden. Had the Draenei never landed on Draenor (well first, it wouldn't have been called Draenor :P) there would be no Horde, Medivh/Sargeras would have had to look elsewhere for an army to bring to Azeroth, and the Alliance and Azeroth would have likely burned when the Burning Legion returned during Warcraft 3.

[Rhlor]

I guess this is a critical thought about Orc lore specifically, but I guess it can apply to the whole Horde. Does Orcish culture have a concept of Diplomacy, or a concept of apology? It seems like a ton of conflict could have been avoided if Thrall's first action was to go to Stormwind and say "Yeah, my people fucked up badly, we wronged you badly, we are definitely going to make it up to you." Like do Orc's even learn about the First and Second War or do they just teach "HORDE DID NOTHING WRONG!!" as told by Metzen himself?

the alliance apologized for sending an army of night elves to quelthalas? or when Jaina attacked innocent civilians in dalaran?

[Mehrunes]

I guess this is a critical thought about Orc lore specifically, but I guess it can apply to the whole Horde. Does Orcish culture have a concept of Diplomacy, or a concept of apology? It seems like a ton of conflict could have been avoided if Thrall's first action was to go to Stormwind and say "Yeah, my people fucked up badly, we wronged you badly, we are definitely going to make it up to you." Like do Orc's even learn about the First and Second War or do they just teach "HORDE DID NOTHING WRONG!!" as told by Metzen himself?

I thought you were against cross-generational guilt like that. You know, with most Orcs currently alive being born in the camps or later and not taking part in second war and all. And considering that Forsaken sent envoys to everyone and still ended with the Horde, that humans stuck to Orcs like used gum to a shoe after they tried to escape to another end of the world to be left alone by humans and leave them alone in turn and that Varian's vision of diplomatically walking into other faction's city involves declaring war over actions of rebels, I'm not exactly sure what results are you expecting. Also, why should this apply to the whole Horde when other Horde races joined only after the New Horde has been formed?

....... The mere fact that Orc's still live is already a borderline unbelievable level of mercy exercised by countries whom would never normally allow the tax money of its recently butchered people to continue to maintain the lives of creatures whom might serve no other purpose than as perpetual wards of a people who were once threatened with extermination by them.

Orcs were enslaved. Dat maintenance. You rail about Horde Fanboys and then go on how Orcs should be grateful for that and benevolence of not being wiped out? Lel.

..... At some point would he not stop to wonder "Man why didn't the humans just annihilate us after the first and second wars?"

I suppose they were too busy thinking about remnants of Kul Tiras fleet right on their doorstep, threatening their existence to think other things about humans.

Send envoys and gifts, or try to work out an agreement. Throughout all of Vanilla he had Jaina to go to and literally did nothing.

Again, Forsaken sent envoys. It ended with them joining the Horde despite Sylvanas not liking them. Blood Elves sent envoys and were sent envoys to in return, it ended with them joining the Horde because the Alliance thought it funny to sabotage one of the remaining defenses of Eversong Woods with Scourge running rampant around. Blood Elves sent envoys again in MoP. It ended with Jaina committing ethnic cleansing against them over actions of a single individual because she's a hypocrite. It's almost as if sending envoys to the Alliance is an idiotic idea. And Horde had OK relationship with Theramore. Despite Theramore being the one straining them throughout vanilla.

Continuing to War and attempt to seize lands on a planet their kind invaded isn't exactly the olive branch of peace. Heck, in their new home they went and tried to kill a Demi-God and seize timber ect.

And with whom did they to continue to war with? First war between the factions since Orcs left internment camps was started by the Alliance. And oh noes, Orcs cut trees, ze horror. Then defended themselves when they were attacked over cutting trees, because... Night Elves couldn't send an envoy either? Huh, how weird.

[Venziir]

I guess this is a critical thought about Orc lore specifically, but I guess it can apply to the whole Horde. Does Orcish culture have a concept of Diplomacy, or a concept of apology? It seems like a ton of conflict could have been avoided if Thrall's first action was to go to Stormwind and say "Yeah, my people fucked up badly, we wronged you badly, we are definitely going to make it up to you." Like do Orc's even learn about the First and Second War or do they just teach "HORDE DID NOTHING WRONG!!" as told by Metzen himself?

Like Ambassador Rocktusk (I think that was his name), at Wyrmrest who's sole purpose was to apologize to the Red Dragonflight?

[Mehrunes]

.... A Desert that they then went and started pillaging other territories for resources from like immediately. I seem to recall this Elven forest place, were they immediately went for the stuff Durotar wouldn't give them. After all Thrall continued the invasion of Ashenvale and did nothing to stop it.

I seem to recall cutting trees not being an evil thing. I seem to recall them remaining in a desert anyway. Whoopty doo, they gathered resources to construct their desert homes. They're basically resurrected mecha HITLER (am I doing this right?)!!1! And the only invasion of Ashenvale was the one started by Garrosh. Before that the Horde had logging camps in the zone. I guess they weren't in the mood for going to gather lumber elsewhere when Dwarves popped out of nowhere and started digging around three different Horde territories. Wait, it's OK when Alliance does it, my bad. Anyway, back to recollections. I seem to recall not even humans were aware of Night Elves. I seem to recall it made it hard to be aware they were intruding on their territory. I seem to recall Night Elve's attempts at diplomacy was "shoot arrows first, ask questions later". I seem to recall they did that not just with the Orcs, but humans as well.

As for Demons, did not the Orc's drink the blood willingly?

Yes, considering that Orc aversion to being enslaved is older than their adventures in internment camps they obviously willingly became slaves of the Legion because Kil'Jaeden arrived in person to explain the details to them and they loved the idea.

Where in the honor code does it say "Don't invade and try to genocide a planet, and if you do, its bad!" Or is their code lacking in that department, or a concept of just general Right and Wrong and making peace among themselves. I mean even the most primitive societies on earth have this basic concept of "I'm sorry," fuck it exists in every language on the planet, are the Orc's written to be just that dense?

Orcs didn't genocide anything on Azeroth. Only against Draenei on Draenor. An Alliance race. That apparently, despite being one of the most civilized races in WoW, doesn't have a "don't drag Legion after you and doom countless worlds to oblivion by doing so" passage in their own code of honor. Their general concept of right and wrong saw that as an acceptable sacrifice and less important than the lives of the handful of Draenei. Anyway, tons of refugees left Stormwind and Orcs didn't bother with them because they were focused on conquest and not on wiping out the population. Even an Old God says the alternative to Garona killing Llane would be thousands deaths. Orcs still went with the Garona option for some reason. Besides, you argued that Alliance should have committed a genocide against them, were stupid for not doing so and that Orcs should be grateful they didn't. Dat consistency. Wait, no, "dat selective application of morals and moral outrage" seems more like it.

It's mind boggling that a civilization with a fairly noticeable affinity for the Light and 'honor' didn't end up genociding an entire race into extinction? o.O

Honestly it seems like you've spent the majority of this thread fishing to feed your conformation bias rather than anything productive.

No waiiiii.

A race of basically invading demons.

Strange Aliens that worship demons and served them are not exactly creatures worth saving from that vantage point.

Basically invading demons? Wat?

.... The fact that they didn't bash that baby on a rock as any sane person would have done. Mass executing POW's would be, Mass executing a literal Alien invasion that actually was the foot soldiers of a vast space demon army (Which is dumb in it of itself, but whatever) is a gray area.

"Concept of just general Right and Wrong and making peace" at play right here. Especially the smashing babies part.

And yet, with or without demon blood their behavior is pretty much the same.

Yeah, let's ignore the part about Garrosh feeding Grom selective information via visions.

[LazarusLong]

So Orc's are just ignorant children playing with excessively dangerous weapons?

NO, you are thinking Night Elves here.

[Deleted]

I guess this is a critical thought about Orc lore specifically, but I guess it can apply to the whole Horde. Does Orcish culture have a concept of Diplomacy, or a concept of apology? It seems like a ton of conflict could have been avoided if Thrall's first action was to go to Stormwind and say "Yeah, my people fucked up badly, we wronged you badly, we are definitely going to make it up to you." Like do Orc's even learn about the First and Second War or do they just teach "HORDE DID NOTHING WRONG!!" as told by Metzen himself?

go to Stormwind? you do know that humans are our enemy right?
Just that we now fight demons over Alliance right now does not mean we will not kill humans again after the demons are gone.

And btw where is the concept of Apology from humans toward Trolls???

[Theodarzna]

go to Stormwind? you do know that humans are our enemy right?
Just that we now fight demons over Alliance right now does not mean we will not kill humans again after the demons are gone.

And btw where is the concept of Apology from humans toward Trolls???

Enemy because literally a Demon told you.

So Demon blood corruption or not, Orc's are pretty much the same creature no matter what, but Don't worry, the Old Horde is gone! XD

Heck, the events of Warlords of Draenor even confirm, Orc's are just by nature bad. Even without Demon blood they can all be convinced willingly to go genocide other people.

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Like Ambassador Rocktusk (I think that was his name), at Wyrmrest who's sole purpose was to apologize to the Red Dragonflight?

So they understand the concept....... They actually comprehend that they can do bad things.

That is a start.

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Just wanted to chime in on this "superhuman level of mercy" bit. First off, when the humans started rounding up the orcs and sticking them in internment camps, it wasn't like they were taking p.o.ws. The orcs had fallen into the "lethargy" at that point from their going through withdrawals from lack of demonic energies. The orcs that they rounded up were for the most part noncombatants at this point, which was why they were so easy to take and keep in camps.

The conditions in these camps were horrid. The orcs were often treated as little more than livestock, they lived in their own filth and were often time tortured and abused by their captors. I'm sure some might chime in "But the Alliance let them live omg so ungrateful!", but the fact is the orcs were done fighting at this point.

Thrall lived in one of the worst examples of these camps. The very name he was given was to remind him of the fact that he was a slave. He saw and experienced the cruelty of the Alliance first hand, and when he finally met his people again all he saw was listless lifeforms being abused by the same people who made his life hell.

One thing a lot of people tend to forget in their rush to hate on the orcs is that they didn't just wake up one day and decide to ruin Draenor, and then come pillage Azeroth. Everything that happened was caused by Kil'jaeden, who used the orcs as his instrument of vengeance against the Draenei. He took the guise of orcish ancestors to trick them into uniting against the Draenei, and eventually drinking the demon's blood.

So really, if anyone should be offering up an apology don't you think it should be Velen and the group of Draenei that fled from Argus? Every planet the Draenei landed on since they left Argus was destroyed by Kil'jaeden. Had the Draenei never landed on Draenor (well first, it wouldn't have been called Draenor :P) there would be no Horde, Medivh/Sargeras would have had to look elsewhere for an army to bring to Azeroth, and the Alliance and Azeroth would have likely burned when the Burning Legion returned during Warcraft 3.

Non-Combatant, Alien invading creatures that poured out a mysterious magical gate at the behest of Demons they apparently worshiped. At any point, keeping a vast league of creatures that at any point could go into a crazy blood frenzy is a massive security risk that I doubt realistically any King would have endured.

And yes, after murder raping there way across a planet, the poor Orc's instead of being executed like any sane person would have suggested, were held prisoner and endured the unbearable misery of uncomfortable beds and lousy meals..... the poor creatures, they are basically saints who didn't even fight the first and second war.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Non-Combatant, Alien invading creatures that poured out a mysterious magical gate at the behest of Demons they apparently worshiped. At any point, keeping a vast league of creatures that at any point could go into a crazy blood frenzy is a massive security risk that I doubt realistically any King would have endured.

And yes, after murder raping there way across a planet, the poor Orc's instead of being executed like any sane person would have suggested, were held prisoner and endured the unbearable misery of uncomfortable beds and lousy meals..... the poor creatures, they are basically saints who didn't even fight the first and second war.

Teneras learned that they were under the thumb of demons..... Its why he advocated for the camps.........

Enemy because literally a Demon told you.

So Demon blood corruption or not, Orc's are pretty much the same creature no matter what, but Don't worry, the Old Horde is gone! XD

Heck, the events of Warlords of Draenor even confirm, Orc's are just by nature bad. Even without Demon blood they can all be convinced willingly to go genocide other people.

The Grom short story shows why they did what they did in WoD........ Garrosh used visions of the future cutting out the good parts and presented that as the outcome of the orcs if the iron Horde wasnt formed.

[Aquamonkey]

Thrall was raised in the customs and culture of humans, so any failure of diplomacy and apology is on the humans, not the orcs.

[Wildmoon]

One of the mistakes that Thrall did was to keep glorifying the leaders of old when those people were not exactly the role models for him to forge a new orc society. He didn't condem the leaders of old for their wrongdoings enough. He even named his city Ogrimmar.

This is why many orcs longed for the horde of old and were swayed by Garrosh's rise. For many of them the old horde is the true horde. That's the perception that Thrall has never bothered get rid off.

[Friendlyimmolation]

One of the mistakes that Thrall did was to keep glorifying the leaders of old when those people were not exactly the role models for him to forge a new orc society. He didn't condem the leaders of old for their wrongdoings enough. He even named his city Ogrimmar.

This is why many orcs longed for the horde of old and were swayed by Garrosh's rise. For many of them the old horde is the true horde. That's the perception that Thrall has never bothered get rid off.

Thralls problem was he only saw the good sides of the orcs, he loved Grom like a brother, Orgrim helped free his people, etc.