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  1. #1

    Pyroblast vs Flamestrike

    So, does anyone actually know (by know I mean literally know, not just know because X person told him that without any argument) against how many targets it's better to use Flamestrike rather than Pyroblast?

    Putting aside all AW traits and talents like flamepatch: Pyroblast does 400% SP damage and Flamestrike does 180% SP damage. So it's better to use Flamestrike against 3 targets or more. Ehm... no, not really. There's Heating Up and Hot Streak that fu**s up everything.

    It's problematic to figure out because Pyroblast can crit and thus grant Heating Up or Hotstreak proc while Flamestrike cannot. I've heard many ideas like "3 targets", "5 targets" or even "10 targets".

    Also, wondering whether the more crit% chance you got the better Pyroblast becomes compared to Flamestrike, because of Heating Up/HotStreak thing. So for example (really example, random numbers, don't take it seriously):

    - it's better to use Flamestrike against 5 targets or more if you have 30% crit
    - it's better to use Flamestrike against 7 targets or more if you have 70% crit

    Or crit doesn't affect it at all, so no matter how much crit% we have the number against how many targets it's better to Flamestrike is constant?

    What's the number, though?
    Last edited by Wenoxar; 2016-09-16 at 05:45 AM.

  2. #2
    According to Rinoa's guide https://www.altered-time.com/forum/v...a4efa7fa2eca01 you start using flamestrike at 8 targets. But, I assume the Aftershocks trait changes that.


    Also, ignite makes it a little weird because the flamestrike ignite DoT is going to be much smaller than the pyroblast ignite DoT, but the pyroblast ignite has to travel a bit and loses damage the more enemies there are. Also, when combustion is up during AoE, it makes flamestrike not worth using until much more targets because of how it messes up the giant ignite you could be getting out of pyroblasts.


    It's a pretty complex question. I'm using it against 5 or more targets because that's when the pyroblast ignite DoT can't get the damage spread around effectively anymore (first jump does 75% of the damage, second jump does 50% to that target, third jump does 25%.)

  3. #3
    Deleted
    i dont really need to know that. i just use it when i feel its good to use.
    i.e. there are adds about to die quickly, or to setup an cinterstorm quickly (30% more dmg to ignited targets).

  4. #4
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Skozen View Post
    It's a pretty complex question. I'm using it against 5 or more targets because that's when the pyroblast ignite DoT can't get the damage spread around effectively anymore (first jump does 75% of the damage, second jump does 50% to that target, third jump does 25%.)
    What, since when does ignite decrease in damage with more targets??? It spreads the same for every mob thats within range of the ignited target.

  5. #5
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    As an aside, if Rinoa's guide is correct (and I have no reason to doubt it) then an AOE spell that requires eight targets to be effective needs rebalancing. Five targets should be the minimum to switch out Pyroblast for Flamestrike in our rotation.

    Hopefully the Aftershock trait will improve Flamestrike so that it reaches this point.

  6. #6
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    As an aside, if Rinoa's guide is correct (and I have no reason to doubt it) then an AOE spell that requires eight targets to be effective needs rebalancing. Five targets should be the minimum to switch out Pyroblast for Flamestrike in our rotation.

    Hopefully the Aftershock trait will improve Flamestrike so that it reaches this point.
    Still, an aoe spell would have to be strong enough to be chosen over a ST spell in 5+ targets no matter whether it has a Major Trait backing it up or not. Flamestrike is just too weak right now and Aftershocks doesn't do much to help it to be honest. It's like a 25% (or maybe 20%, not sure) damage increase since the Aftershocks pillar does that amount of damage.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    As an aside, if Rinoa's guide is correct (and I have no reason to doubt it) then an AOE spell that requires eight targets to be effective needs rebalancing. Five targets should be the minimum to switch out Pyroblast for Flamestrike in our rotation.

    Hopefully the Aftershock trait will improve Flamestrike so that it reaches this point.
    that tooltip is a lie, the flamestrike cast by aftershocks does pitiful damage

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Azlarn View Post
    Still, an aoe spell would have to be strong enough to be chosen over a ST spell in 5+ targets no matter whether it has a Major Trait backing it up or not. Flamestrike is just too weak right now and Aftershocks doesn't do much to help it to be honest. It's like a 25% (or maybe 20%, not sure) damage increase since the Aftershocks pillar does that amount of damage.
    I agree Flamestrike is weird and too weak but if they buff it they would probably have to rebalance something else because our damage on many targets would likely go overboard.

  9. #9
    I think it also depends on how much mastery you got, high mastery = pyro, low mastery = flamestrike
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  10. #10
    Deleted
    Flamestrike only on 8+

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Skozen View Post
    According to Rinoa's guide https://www.altered-time.com/forum/v...a4efa7fa2eca01 you start using flamestrike at 8 targets. But, I assume the Aftershocks trait changes that.


    Also, ignite makes it a little weird because the flamestrike ignite DoT is going to be much smaller than the pyroblast ignite DoT, but the pyroblast ignite has to travel a bit and loses damage the more enemies there are. Also, when combustion is up during AoE, it makes flamestrike not worth using until much more targets because of how it messes up the giant ignite you could be getting out of pyroblasts.


    It's a pretty complex question. I'm using it against 5 or more targets because that's when the pyroblast ignite DoT can't get the damage spread around effectively anymore (first jump does 75% of the damage, second jump does 50% to that target, third jump does 25%.)
    thats assuming rinoa is correct in his/her statement, in game testing would suggest otherwise from what ive seen, to me it would make sense if it was flamestrike at 8+ targets with combust up and at 3+ targets normally. at 8+ targets in general makes little sense to me mathematically.

  12. #12
    @almara2512

    Does it make sense at 3+ targets, though? Given the fact that Flamestrike doesn't grant HU/HS procs...

  13. #13
    It mostly depends on how long your target(s) will be alive for. Are they going to be alive long enough for ignite to spread to them and tick for its entire duration? Or are they only going to be alive for a few more globals?

    The answer to your question depends on the scenario.

  14. #14
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wenoxar View Post
    @almara2512

    Does it make sense at 3+ targets, though? Given the fact that Flamestrike doesn't grant HU/HS procs...
    while true, pyroblast wont necesarily give you a HU/HS procs either unless you have 100% which is why i assume its only when combust is up.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Heretias View Post
    What, since when does ignite decrease in damage with more targets??? It spreads the same for every mob thats within range of the ignited target.
    Im pretty sure that hes saying that as it spreads, theres less time left on the dot, so it does less damage. I.e. if it ticks 4 times, then when it spreads to the second mob, it only has the damage as if its going to tick 3 more times since it had to tick once to jump.

  16. #16
    Field Marshal juhi's Avatar
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    well . fire is one of hardest spec's for mages. 2 reasons

    1- there is no stable rotation !
    2- U have too use ur brain too play. (sometiems using 2 pyro in a row is better than 1.8 cast fireball for 60k dps) points at blackhand Mythic 1%

    flamestrike with flamepatch Is really Doing great dmg and u can bring everything on AOE dps. but lets answer this question why we using a flamestrike !?

    answer) becasue u need A boosted ignite before using cinderstorm,behind the Flamestrike DMG but take the flamestrike as Controling spell on dps (if FP not talented) the ignite is automatic spread mode so its better too use Flamestrike whenever u decide too use cinderstorm,or doing AOE dmg.
    6+ ? 5+ ? 8+ !? this is Wrong. THe main AOE dmg For Fire mages this patch is living bomb. THIS Spell is doing Deadly Dmg, the one of Normal tricks for living bomb is using it on lower HP target (because the expload and spread is triggering when the affected target is dead or the time runs out) so BE smart and use living bomb. if u want too use Cinderstorm too do AOE dps (remmebre u need The ROP) use Flamestrike then cast cinders.
    ===================================
    BTW i didnt test it yet because we cant track the iginte dmg that easy.
    but I think the ignite from PROC flamestrike is much more than Pyro and fireball ignite because u can choose a area for putting ignite on targets instantly but pyro and fireball is auto spreading but (If u have FP talent) its going for more.. and more..

    so do what u want. but the AOE dps mode is living bomb (using tricks will help u for higher dps) and flamestrike before Cinder's, im pretty sure the number of target's is dosent matter. as a mage. its matter only if u have FP talented, and no living bomb.

    Regard's

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Heretias View Post
    What, since when does ignite decrease in damage with more targets??? It spreads the same for every mob thats within range of the ignited target.
    Ignite is a weird DoT. It's helpful to think of each spell's ignite component separately. When you hit an enemy with an instant pyroblast and have 10% mastery, then they get an ignite DoT for 20% of the damage done by the spell. 2 seconds later, the ignite ticks and spreads to one additional target, but has already done 25% of its damage. There are 6 seconds left of the pyroblast's ignite, and now it's on two targets. You may have thrown another spell that price ignite and the timer might be refreshed, but that first pyroblast's ignite is 25% over. 2 seconds later each ignite ticks and spreads to one additional target each, and 50% of the pyroblast's ignite damage/duration is left. 4 seconds later, after two more ticks and one more spread, the ignite damage from that pyroblast is over and done.


    Also, since the highest damage ignite is the only one that deals damage, then even hot streak procs aside, flamestrike isn't worth it on 3 targets. It does slightly more damage, but the ignites are all the same small things whereas the ignite from the pyroblast will be much higher.

  18. #18
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Skozen View Post


    Also, since the highest damage ignite is the only one that deals damage, then even hot streak procs aside, flamestrike isn't worth it on 3 targets. It does slightly more damage, but the ignites are all the same small things whereas the ignite from the pyroblast will be much higher.
    thats not entirely true, you'll still need to factor in the time it takes for the ignite of the pyroblast to spread to multiple targets AND the dmg loss those ignites get from spreading which is something flamestrike doesnt get, either way, it certainly isnt at 8+ targets you should use flamestrike, only time when i can see pyroblast overtake flamestrike on 3 target is if pyroblast crits and flamestrike doesnt crit all the targets, then pyro should be marginally better, on 4+ targets FS is just plain better in terms of pure dmg.

  19. #19
    From my experience, in dungeons with short lived mobs, just flame strike 3+. Why?

    It immediately spreads ignite to all which means that conflag can start procing all over the place, and I can cinderstorm right away into the mobs without waiting ignite to spread. Couple this with living bomb and RoP, very few can beat the burst dps. Until raids and mythic+ comes out this works fine.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by pkm View Post
    From my experience, in dungeons with short lived mobs, just flame strike 3+. Why?

    It immediately spreads ignite to all which means that conflag can start procing all over the place, and I can cinderstorm right away into the mobs without waiting ignite to spread. Couple this with living bomb and RoP, very few can beat the burst dps. Until raids and mythic+ comes out this works fine.
    Conflag does not proc off ignite, it procs off fireball. if you are talking about Phoenix Reborn, sure but thats a very low portion of the damage and the cooldown reduction is much more important.

    Without flamepatch and the flamestrike based traits in the artifact, its really not worth using. Hitting the priority target is much more important and only a small damage loss if at all (5-7+ targets). The ignites that spread from your pyro are stronger than the ones from your flamestrike and you get more hotstreaks when doing your single rotation on the priority target, leading to more pyros and higher ignites spreading to all the mobs.

    Additionally, you need to fireball to keep the conflag target up, which is a significant boost in aoe.

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