Question about Havoc stat weights

[Sixel]

I was looking at ask mr robot about equipping my best gear to get the most crit and vers. Just so happens that the gear that was selected basically has 0 haste (At this point, I only have 391 haste). I'm not sure if it's worth equipping gear that has more haste with less crit, or if the current gear set is fine.


Current stats:
Crit: 9552
Haste: 391
Mastery: 3138
Vers: 3372

[ufta]

I was looking at ask mr robot about equipping my best gear to get the most crit and vers. Just so happens that the gear that was selected basically has 0 haste (At this point, I only have 391 haste). I'm not sure if it's worth equipping gear that has more haste with less crit, or if the current gear set is fine.


Current stats:
Crit: 9552
Haste: 391
Mastery: 3138
Vers: 3372

This is why stat weights matter.
"Crit is better than haste" is an open-ended and nebulous statement. How much better?
If, for example, the weighted stats showed that crit was exactly twice as good as haste, then that means that a ring with +400 crit on it would be better than a ring with +700 haste on it.

The question I would pose to you is this: why would you want to trade a superior stat for an inferior one?

[Sixel]

why would you want to trade a superior stat for an inferior one?

My thinking was that there would be a point where crit starts receiving diminishing returns. I've heard that at around 45%, crit starts losing value. I suppose that after simming my character, the 3 weights for vers, crit, and haste are all about the same for me. I also wasn't sure if there was a haste point where I could easily get 4 gcd's in a momentum window during meta. At the moment, it feels that if I even slightly out range a boss during meta, I am only able to fit 3 gcd's into the momentum window

[Deleted]

For me and the other DH in my guild, Crit was the best stat until we reached 40% Crit. After that, Versatility became slightly better than Crit. Haste always remained the 3rd best stat and mastery the (by far) worst one.

[Tobedeleted123]

For me and the other DH in my guild, Crit was the best stat until we reached 40% Crit. After that, Versatility became slightly better than Crit. Haste always remained the 3rd best stat and mastery the (by far) worst one.

That's weird, I assume you've run the sims?

[Deleted]

That's weird, I assume you've run the sims?

Yup. Simulationcraft with exported data through the Simcraft-Addon. Versatility only pulls slightly ahead (about 6 dps per Point vs. 5.8 per Point for crit) at about 40% crit chance. I had very low versatility initially, though (started at 5% with 48% crit). I am at 43% crit and 11% versatility right now. Through optimizing with re-enchanting and crafted items for more versatility I went from 258k to 261k (ST, 6 Minute fight). I am at work right now, I can post the detailed stats and my sim when I get home

I guess it has to do with the fact that Eye Beam always crits anyway so it does not scale at all with crit and that there is a point where more refunded Fury through Chaos Strike/Anihilation crits does not significantly improve DPS anymore, because you already have enough to fill most freed GCDs with CS/Anhilation anyway. Whereas Versatility just improves "everything", even Eye Beam (and Anguish).

Maybe it also has to do with my 2 trinkets (Darkmoon-Card with basically "static" stats and a Agi + static Crit trinket at 850). Maybe crit is better for more burst with procc-trinkets?

And as I said: it is exactly the same for my fellow DH in my guild.

Maybe it also has to do with our gear overall. We are basically full 850 with all Crit/Vers items (no legendaries though QQ).

[Littlepwny]

I currently have 9762 Crit (43.89%), 1356 Haste (4.17%), 5579 Vers (13.95%), 1459 Mastery (12.17%)

My current stat weights are the following (FB spec, CB spec; 112211X build):

Agi = 9.01 / 8.97
Crit = 6.13 / 6.38
Vers = 5.99 / 6.15
Haste = 5.54 / 6.9
Mastery = 4.01 / 5.97

Doing a reforge plot Versatility to Haste for the Chaos Blade build, there is a small Haste breakpoint at approximately 2000 Haste for the Chaos Blade build (~1000 DPS increase) before Haste's has a large drop that leads to DPS loss again. Interestingly, dropping my haste to 800 would also increase my single target DPS by 600. Note that increasing Haste reduces AoE damage, FB ST reforge plot, FB three-man AoE, but not by a lot. If I gear using Crit > Verse > Haste >>> Mastery assuming equal ilvl, I should be mostly fine.

Optimally, for a single target fight you would need to have the haste at that breakpoint while the rest of the gear is focused on crit and versatility. However, since we will be in Fel Barrage specs fighting AoE/Cleave fights throughout most of the raids, it is still very important to prioritise Crit/Vers. Note that versatility becomes better than Crit the more AoE there is.

Additionally, Mastery should be as close to zero as possible unless it somehow become very competitive in sims for both FB and CB specs because currently it is absolutely useless for AoE fights and still the worse in single target fights.

I am personally going for a good balance of Crit/Versatility with a small amount of haste based on gear drops while avoiding mastery like a plague. Whatever you do, constantly sim with both Fel Barrage and Chaos Blades and find the proper mix.


---

For a more specific answer, either run simcraft yourself, send me your armoury, or--for greater precision--run the Simc addon in-game and share the text shown. Drop the mastery, get some haste, and increase the rest of the stats assuming equal ilvl.

[Butosai]

You dont want to have 0 of any stat. For an exact answer sim your personal stat weights. For example people who blindly stack crit to the moon often time will see haste as their best stat when simmed. Also if you have 0 mastery and you sim single targrt chaos blades theres a vhance to see mastery as your best stat.

[Deleted]

I simmed myself, 10k iterations give me crit>vers or vers>crit with super small margins like 0.0X right now. Simulated with 100k iterations:

Overall DPS: 261209.9

Scaling (DPS per point)
Agi 8.65 (got 23.266 unbuffed)
Crit 5.89 (got 43.79% unbuffed)
Vers 5.78 (got 13.95% unbuffed)
Haste 5.30 (got 2.69% unbuffed)
Mastery 4.32 (got 10.87% unbuffed)

I have versatility enchants right now, but I don't eve nthink I am going to change them since AoE favors versatility anyway and it has nice benefits aside from DPS

[Sixel]

I simmed myself, 10k iterations give me crit>vers or vers>crit with super small margins like 0.0X right now. Simulated with 100k iterations:

Overall DPS: 261209.9

Scaling (DPS per point)
Agi 8.65 (got 23.266 unbuffed)
Crit 5.89 (got 43.79% unbuffed)
Vers 5.78 (got 13.95% unbuffed)
Haste 5.30 (got 2.69% unbuffed)
Mastery 4.32 (got 10.87% unbuffed)

I have versatility enchants right now, but I don't eve nthink I am going to change them since AoE favors versatility anyway and it has nice benefits aside from DPS

I assume that sim is using barrage? Can you try simming yourself with CB and report back, please?

[Deleted]

I assume that sim is using barrage? Can you try simming yourself with CB and report back, please?

Reporting back in, Sir!

CB sims with 264,376.0 DPS (3.100 DPS increase over FB)

Scaling
Agi 8.47 (got 23.266 unbuffed)
Crit 5.99 (got 43.79% unbuffed)
Vers 5.79 (got 13.95% unbuffed)
Haste 5.68 (got 2.69% unbuffed)
Mastery 5.32 (got 10.87% unbuffed)

So Mastery becomes better than Haste which has no consequence for me and my gear (nearly zero Haste) because they just trade the 4th/5th spot. Crit and Versatility remain very close, as does the overall DPS.

So close that any add at all hit by FB will tilt it towards FB, which is why I will raid with FB throughout if all remains the same (I also like that it gives you another "ranged ability" which is great if we are not in a pure Patchwerk fight).

[Sixel]

Reporting back in, Sir!

CB sims with 264,376.0 DPS (3.100 DPS increase over FB)

Scaling
Agi 8.47 (got 23.266 unbuffed)
Crit 5.99 (got 43.79% unbuffed)
Vers 5.79 (got 13.95% unbuffed)
Haste 5.68 (got 2.69% unbuffed)
Mastery 5.32 (got 10.87% unbuffed)

So Mastery becomes better than Haste which has no consequence for me and my gear (nearly zero Haste) because they just trade the 4th/5th spot. Crit and Versatility remain very close, as does the overall DPS.

So close that any add at all hit by FB will tilt it towards FB, which is why I will raid with FB throughout if all remains the same (I also like that it gives you another "ranged ability" which is great if we are not in a pure Patchwerk fight).

Huh, I thought haste would've become more valuable than that with CB. Thank you! I need to sim my character again, but I think I'll most likely be sticking with barrage for the time being.