Raid size a deal breaker in Legion? [Poll]

[Foj]

Pretty bad necro

2015 is so last year

[Dorfadin]

Doing 10mans was never raiding, its only two groups.....

[Deleted]

Do you know what was the 'final nail in the coffin' for most guilds ever? CHANGING THE RAID SIZE PERIOD. From 40 to 25, from 25 to Split. It killed so many peoples motivation to keep raiding and keep playing WoW.


If you leave it alone, it will stabilize. 20man needs to stay. 10 man heroic is still available for your convenience and I don't get the stigma of that difficulty being 'not true raiding'.

No more changes to raid size, it's unhealthy for the raiding populace.

[nostradamux]

I like 10 man and 20 man. There's aspect of raiding that I like that I can only experience in 10man and there's things that you can only experience in 20man.

I don't see why its such a huge deal if both co-existed. I don't know why people made such a big deal 1 being easier then the other. Long as it wasn't huge disparity (statistically) I don't see what the problem was. Just let the player decide how they want to experience the game. Why do people care so much how other experience the game? If some one wants to do the hardest content in 25m let them, if some one wants to do hardest content in 10m let them do that. It's not like there's an esport scene behind this where 10/25 was conflicting the competition in a massive way.

I personally perfer 20m. I just don't like how the hardest part of raiding start before the raid even starts. Which is putting the right people together before entering. The time/logistic to put a large group of people together without being able to punished some one for wrong doing leads to a revolving door in many large guilds. And while trying to figure out that problem, next thing you know. You put more time outside of the game so you can spend few hours raiding inside of the game. It takes immense amount of time to establish a long lasting and respected guild. So I salute any GM/Officer who were able to hold together a guild 1/+ yrs.

[Ebalina]

I'd also like to add that 10 man sartharion + 3 drakes was the hardest content in that tier regardless of gear.
Which is also why so few people earned plagued protos.

I got both drakes black and plagued and i can tell you doing sarth 3d on 25man took 2nights of raiding.
Sarth 3d on 10man took 3h with a voidwalker tanking the boss.

Thats 1 week we hit level 80 .

[Deleted]

I've said it for ever since 20man was talked about; I preferred 10man over 25man, but I can see how 20man only is better for the game.

[FuxieDK]

Doing 10mans was never raiding, its only two groups.....

By that extent: 25man and 40man ad never raiding; it was simply strength in numbers... Anvanced level 1 Hogger ganking...

- - - Updated - - -

I got both drakes black and plagued and i can tell you doing sarth 3d on 25man took 2nights of raiding.
Sarth 3d on 10man took 3h with a voidwalker tanking the boss.

Thats 1 week we hit level 80 .

That's a plain lie, and you know it.. Voidwalkers was literally one-shot by the boss, specifically to avoid doing that.. The same was hunter pets..
How do I know? Because my guild attempted the same..

[Deleted]

My fiancee

I stopped reading there. 10man is not raiding anyway.

[munkeyinorbit]

It's one of the main reasons I quit. Switching and sticking to 20 man only mythics killed it for me... and my server... and it's guilds. Regardless of what you believe, think, or feel, it was a decision based in lazyness. ;( Blizzard has a rough time tuning their own game ;( Poor shitbag devs.

The only decision based in laziness is people quitting cause they were too terrible to actually raid mythic. So many people crying about how all the mythic guilds disappeared. The reason they disappeared is because the player base wasn't good enough. There are mythic guilds crying out for players while at the same time the players are saying that there are no mythic guilds recruiting. Definitely a L2P issue. The fact is many players were rejected because they were just fucking lazy and terrible.

It is a mark of a terrible player that blames Blizzard for their own short comings. "My class sucks". Actually learn to play the class. "Mythic guilds disappeared". No they didn't. You're terrible and they don't want you. "10 mans were better." No they weren't. They were the baby heroic raid and was actually the reason that Heroic was dying. Changing it to Mythic with the raid size change ensured that ONLY the best players would clear the content as it should.

On behalf of all WoW players, I thank you for quitting. One less bad.

- - - Updated - - -

By that extent: 25man and 40man ad never raiding; it was simply strength in numbers... Anvanced level 1 Hogger ganking...

- - - Updated - - -

That's a plain lie, and you know it.. Voidwalkers was literally one-shot by the boss, specifically to avoid doing that.. The same was hunter pets..
How do I know? Because my guild attempted the same..

You were doing it wrong. L2FuckingInternet. There are videos on youtube of void walkers doing exactly as the guy u quoted said.

[Miyagie]

The only decision based in laziness is people quitting cause they were too terrible to actually raid mythic. So many people crying about how all the mythic guilds disappeared. The reason they disappeared is because the player base wasn't good enough. There are mythic guilds crying out for players while at the same time the players are saying that there are no mythic guilds recruiting. Definitely a L2P issue. The fact is many players were rejected because they were just fucking lazy and terrible.

It is a mark of a terrible player that blames Blizzard for their own short comings. "My class sucks". Actually learn to play the class. "Mythic guilds disappeared". No they didn't. You're terrible and they don't want you. "10 mans were better." No they weren't. They were the baby heroic raid and was actually the reason that Heroic was dying. Changing it to Mythic with the raid size change ensured that ONLY the best players would clear the content as it should.

On behalf of all WoW players, I thank you for quitting. One less bad.

- - - Updated - - -



You were doing it wrong. L2FuckingInternet. There are videos on youtube of void walkers doing exactly as the guy u quoted said.

I bet you got Raid or Die tattoed all over your body.

[Ebalina]

By that extent: 25man and 40man ad never raiding; it was simply strength in numbers... Anvanced level 1 Hogger ganking...

- - - Updated - - -

That's a plain lie, and you know it.. Voidwalkers was literally one-shot by the boss, specifically to avoid doing that.. The same was hunter pets..
How do I know? Because my guild attempted the same..

Dude i will admit that they fixed that shit but i did it before it got fixed.
There is nothing to lie there couple of hundred guilds in the wold that did that and mine back then was one of those.

The next reset we just killed it with a warrior tank it didn't make much diffrence in the grand scheme of things.
But sure believe what ever you want.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW_ct096Lk0 here is the link to a 25man version with voidwalker.
The dmg is much higher on 25man then it is on 10man just fyi.
And the 10man version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkWiWo0xsIE just to prove a point.

[Deleted]

they couldn't give us class flavor anymore because they had to assume you had everything with 10 people.

This is a very interesting reason to remove 10-man raiding, because everyone who does Mythic raiding is interested in having a broad representation of the classes, instead of having the more OP classes only, because when people do Mythic taking the boss down it is secondary to class flavor, as we can see over an over again in all expansions.

[Malygaa]

I would like 10/25's back, exception being 25 going to 20.

At this point I think they should just balance them as best as they can and leave it at that. Feeling like they have to have a perfect balance between 10/25 or else people in a 25 raid would be upset because 10 is easier, or 25 is, for some fights (which obviously some were, cough paragons cough) I mean, the days of super tryhard, world first races where everything has to be perfectly tuned and balanced are over.

This idea that something "Only the best" players should clear is a bit ridiculous, but that's great that you can give yourself a gold star for being in the under 1% of raiders. I used to be one of those people, when I was 18-19 years old and in high school/before college.

I do enjoy watching people argue against 10 mans, though, because it really shows the terrible, selfish, high-horsed mentality that those super elite players have and why I'm glad I'm not longer in the company of such people any longer.

[sdracklryeg]

The best raid size is the one they choose and stick with because literally no matter what size they choose, the worst thing they can do is change it. They've chosen 20 and everyone needs to get over it, we've had literally years to adjust now. Relevant 10man isn't coming back.

[Deleted]

The reason they disappeared is because the player base wasn't good enough. There are mythic guilds crying out for players while at the same time the players are saying that there are no mythic guilds recruiting. Definitely a L2P issue.

OK i will bite.
So you say the playerbase is not good enough, you say people have to L2P, so what meassures did the developers adopted to change this situation then?
What changes did they do to the game so that the playerbase is better, and so that people L2P?
Because increasing the difficulty of your main endgame content, and doing nothing to be sure participation does not sink in that endgame, seems like a pretty stupid decision to me.
Also if the playerbase is not good enough, we would agree that needing 20 competent players instead of just 10 has to be a very big issue then.

[Deleted]

The best raid size is the one they choose and stick with because literally no matter what size they choose, the worst thing they can do is change it. They've chosen 20 and everyone needs to get over it, we've had literally years to adjust now. Relevant 10man isn't coming back.

You can not be any more delusional.
Yes maybe 10-man raiding is not coming back, but no one can be blind enough as to not see that they are trying to implement 5-man raiding into the game in Legion.
They even call karazhan a raid in some blue posts.
20-man raiding is not sustainable in the long run, due to the obvious decline of the genre.

[Holofernes]

i really liked the 10 man heroic stuff, have been doing it since ulduar until garrosh. going back to 20 felt bad, and it still does. 20 men has too much space so there will be some mediocre guys with you, people that are wiping the raid, mistakes are not punished hard enough in 20 men, so people slack a lot.

I always have the feeling that people that prefer biger raidsize are the slackers, that wouldnt put their weight in smaller roster, typically the guys that we will carry into emerald dream tomorrow and still have some blue shitty 825 gear and no enchants / pots / flasks, only taking them in to gear them up and reward them for their slack, but hey they got a fishing relic...

[Vorkreist]

10man was always more intimate than bigger sizes...
10man was, for the most part, signifigantly harder than 25man..

10man was always better than bigger sizes..

Nope
Nope
Nope

Some people don't understand what makes raiding epic.
10 man dungeons =/= epic or raiding

[Cracked]

10 man raids had a certain value, but they were not a substitute to 25 man raiding. If it comes down to developing 1 more tier vs having a separate 10 man versions of all encounters, I say scrap 10 man.

[Deleted]

10 man raids had a certain value, but they were not a substitute to 25 man raiding. If it comes down to developing 1 more tier vs having a separate 10 man versions of all encounters, I say scrap 10 man.

20 man size it is simply not sustainable due to the decline of the genre, if they make very high quality raiding that nearly no one can afford to do because the roster boss is unkillable, more and more people will leave the game.
It is just a matter of time that 20-man raiding will dissapear or will lose importance in the game.