Why do some people get so mad over ilvl requirements?

[Battlebeard]

Hey. Just because you ask for 830/840+ dosen't mean you're bad, it's because people just want fast/smooth/easy runs that dosen't take longer than needed. There's no reason to invite lower as it just makes stuff take longer to kill or give unessecary ( can't spell that word) risks.
So why do some people in /2 get so mad when you mention your ilvl requirements?

People aren't mad because some people ask for ilvl reqs.

They are mad because those leaders are usually really unflexible.

A player with 820 with 10 years of end-game raid experience in great guilds WILL 100% perform MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better than a new player who managed to farm 840.

And STILL getting declined is extremly frustrating.

[Kudos]

They set arbitrary limits because they can.

Thankfully the guild I'm in organised groups from the very beginning so every raider could run all of the Mythics (Including Court and Arcway if you had the rep) and not have to bother with group finder.

[Notdev]

People aren't mad because some people ask for ilvl reqs.

They are mad because those leaders are usually really unflexible.

A player with 820 with 10 years of end-game raid experience in great guilds WILL 100% perform MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better than a new player who managed to farm 840.

And STILL getting declined is extremly frustrating.

In the case of mythic dungeons, that just isn't true. The 840 player will likely make the dungeon go faster because all mythic dungeons are now are spamming your aoe/cleave abilities on trash and do decent single target damage for bosses. Most mechanics in 5 mans just don't matter once you overgear them, including on Mythic.

This game isn't as hard to pick up as you think it is, or as it once was. I say this as a 8 year player.

[Jewsco]

Players just need to accept that most players want to group up with people of their own iLvl (or higher).

Obviously, iLvl is not equal to skill, but we don't really have any other quick methods of knowing if a player is qualified for a dungeon/raid unfortunately.

But the true purpose of these mythics is to gear up right? So taking someone at 830 means you are doing the dungeon as intended. I could see high standards for mythic plus as you have a time limit to hit to keep going higher. But a regular mythic who cares?

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i must be one of the few people that dont fit in to that char i have 3 toons round the 840 mark (got a bit bored of wqs on one char cleared my mythics for the week and moved on to the next) i set the requirements of my grps to 830 sometimes 835 )830 simpply because thats what was needed when i played beta) id happy take an 830 inot nmy grp (unless its a hunter since not a single hunter ive met can use barrage properly but thats for another thread)

Well for mythics a hunter should be in bm as that is the better spec for dungeons and doing aoe. And if in bm they should be using crows over barrage as that gets a boost in bm spec. So a good hunter should be fine in there as they wont even be using barrage like me. A hunter using barrage in those dungeons has no clue.

[Fallen Angel]

A player with 820 with 10 years of end-game raid experience in great guilds WILL 100% perform MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better than a new player who managed to farm 840.

820 Outlaw rogue playing since vanilla and an 840 Outlaw rogue who just bought legion in the group finder. Please tell me which of those has the better experience using the in-game tools I have available.

Spoiler alert!!! You can't. You only know who has the higher ilvl so you can logically guess the 840 rogue will perform better. Whether or not that is the reality is a different thing, but you will never know. You bite the bullet and take the person you think should be better, the 840 rogue.

[Deleted]

People aren't mad because some people ask for ilvl reqs.

They are mad because those leaders are usually really unflexible.

A player with 820 with 10 years of end-game raid experience in great guilds WILL 100% perform MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better than a new player who managed to farm 840.

And STILL getting declined is extremly frustrating.

Go do some world quests and get some better gear then. Or, start your own groups.

[Battlebeard]

In the case of mythic dungeons, that just isn't true. The 840 player will likely make the dungeon go faster because all mythic dungeons are now are spamming your aoe/cleave abilities on trash and do decent single target damage for bosses. Most mechanics in 5 mans just don't matter once you overgear them, including on Mythic.

This game isn't as hard to pick up as you think it is, or as it once was. I say this as a 8 year player.

I geared up slow due to IRL. In my first mythic I was about 815. There was another Rogue there who was about 830. He didn't use Roll the Bones once because "he didn't like it". I did about 50k more DPS than him. Leader kept him becuase "he has nice gear"...

This is so extremly typical for the game these days.

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820 Outlaw rogue playing since vanilla and an 840 Outlaw rogue who just bought legion in the group finder. Please tell me which of those has the better experience using the in-game tools I have available.

Spoiler alert!!! You can't. You only know who has the higher ilvl so you can logically guess the 840 rogue will perform better. Whether or not that is the reality is a different thing, but you will never know. You bite the bullet and take the person you think should be better, the 840 rogue.

Yes, sadly, they do. Most leaders put 0 effort into forming a better group.

This line summarize wow since many years, getting worse all the time:

"Link achiv and ilvl or no invite"

And this disgust me more than anything else in-game. Lazy, ignorant leaders who put 0 effort into researching who they invite and go with the "quick pick"...

[Unknown User]

Hey. Just because you ask for 830/840+ dosen't mean you're bad, it's because people just want fast/smooth/easy runs that dosen't take longer than needed. There's no reason to invite lower as it just makes stuff take longer to kill or give unessecary ( can't spell that word) risks.
So why do some people in /2 get so mad when you mention your ilvl requirements?

I don't get mad over a game, ever. Sure there are sometimes valid reasons to set a high requirement, but when someone sets an ilvl requirement that's higher than they have themselves then yes it does mean they are bad and needs to be carried.

[thunderdragon2]

Well for mythics a hunter should be in bm as that is the better spec for dungeons and doing aoe. And if in bm they should be using crows over barrage as that gets a boost in bm spec. So a good hunter should be fine in there as they wont even be using barrage like me. A hunter using barrage in those dungeons has no clue.

i know but you'd be surprised as to how many mm hunters there aresimply because they dont like bm i personaly dont like mm also ive seen a few bms use crows if they pull alot wiht barage they get to once to either remove the talent or not to use it if they do it again they can find another grp

[willtron]

its not about insecurity its about effectiveness of clears - if we can take 845 who beg us to let them in WHY would be take 830 ? pls tell me why would you take someone 15-20 itlv lower then 15 other people begging to take them in .

I'd take them, and have taken people with a lower ilevel in the past, because they obviously need the gear. I've been in that position and recognise the frustration.

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People aren't mad because some people ask for ilvl reqs.

They are mad because those leaders are usually really unflexible.

A player with 820 with 10 years of end-game raid experience in great guilds WILL 100% perform MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better than a new player who managed to farm 840.

And STILL getting declined is extremly frustrating.

Because there is no metric for skill. Just how powerful your gear is - which actually, is just a reflection of how much time you've put into the game.

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In the case of mythic dungeons, that just isn't true. The 840 player will likely make the dungeon go faster because all mythic dungeons are now are spamming your aoe/cleave abilities on trash and do decent single target damage for bosses. Most mechanics in 5 mans just don't matter once you overgear them, including on Mythic.

This game isn't as hard to pick up as you think it is, or as it once was. I say this as a 8 year player.

I agree to a certain extent. As an 8 year player, mechanics become more obvious and your standard as a player gets better.

[Jewsco]

i know but you'd be surprised as to how many mm hunters there aresimply because they dont like bm i personaly dont like mm also ive seen a few bms use crows if they pull alot wiht barage they get to once to either remove the talent or not to use it if they do it again they can find another grp

I know but then they have no one to blame but themselves for not getting picked by being bullheaded and staying in mm. I regularly minimum double to triple mm hunters in bm in mythics. To gimp oneself that much is stupid. Then add in barrage and sidewinders( this pulls a lot too) are hard to use in the mythics since they pull a lot it really gimps the mm hunter.

[Fallen Angel]

Yes, sadly, they do. Most leaders put 0 effort into forming a better group.

This line summarize wow since many years, getting worse all the time:

"Link achiv and ilvl or no invite"

And this disgust me more than anything else in-game. Lazy, ignorant leaders who put 0 effort into researching who they invite and go with the "quick pick"...

Even if I looked at your armory and saw you had good experience, I don't know if you were carried through that content, or how you will perform in current content. I will still take the 840 over you because I have the expectation they should perform better than you. I can do all the research in the world, but I still don't know how you measure up to the 840 without taking both of you.

[Jewsco]

Even if I looked at your armory and saw you had good experience, I don't know if you were carried through that content, or how you will perform in current content. I will still take the 840 over you because I have the expectation they should perform better than you. I can do all the research in the world, but I still don't know how you measure up to the 840 without taking both of you.

I agree it is just common sense to take the higher ilevel. My problem lies in the fact they will sit there in looking for waiting for the higher ilevel for a "quick" run. Multiple times I have been declined and I have a 847 ilevel but somehow that isn't good enough and joined another group only to find that group looking for the "quick" run still waiting. How is that "quick"?
Why wouldn't you give someone a chance and if they suck kick them? It's quicker to wait for hours for the right ilevel?
That is what annoys me.

[Notdev]

I geared up slow due to IRL. In my first mythic I was about 815. There was another Rogue there who was about 830. He didn't use Roll the Bones once because "he didn't like it". I did about 50k more DPS than him. Leader kept him becuase "he has nice gear"...

This is so extremly typical for the game these days.

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Yes, sadly, they do. Most leaders put 0 effort into forming a better group.

This line summarize wow since many years, getting worse all the time:

"Link achiv and ilvl or no invite"

And this disgust me more than anything else in-game. Lazy, ignorant leaders who put 0 effort into researching who they invite and go with the "quick pick"...

Here's the thing though, if it works, who cares? Why go through all the extra effort of asking everyone who signs up what their raiding history is, verifying it to see if they're lying (people do this too), and all in all just spending way more time than just picking people with the higher ilvl? Its not like if someone is really terrible you can't just kick them and find someone else, either. And your anecdote was pretty much the best thing that can happen if you spend all that extra time (get a lesser geared person with slightly better performance and maybe shave a few minutes off of your run), its just not worth the time needed.

There is absolutely no easy, quick, time efficient way to gauge the skill of two strangers you never grouped with before. So people go with the thing that you can measure, which is ilvl.

[Fallen Angel]

I agree it is just common sense to take the higher ilevel. My problem lies in the fact they will sit there in looking for waiting for the higher ilevel for a "quick" run. Multiple times I have been declined and I have a 847 ilevel but somehow that isn't good enough and joined another group only to find that group looking for the "quick" run still waiting. How is that "quick"?
Why wouldn't you give someone a chance and if they suck kick them? It's quicker to wait for hours for the right ilevel?
That is what annoys me.

I don't know why they would. Armor class stacking for trading perhaps? In the end it doesn't matter. If that ever happens to me I join another group or make my own. No time was wasted on my side that wouldn't have been wasted already. People can do what they please and I'm not going to be butt hurt if I don't meet their arbitrary requirements or they simply don't want me.

[cam5778]

Ilevel used to be a metric to evaluate if someone was geared to handle the mechanics and other related gear checks. Now it's a metric to outgear everything and ignore all mechanics, because people want the fastest dungeon run possible. One wipe, and people lose their minds and insults start flying everywhere. Dungeon groups lost all sense of community. I don't pug because most people get carried by outgearing content, rather than utilizing their class. I've seen countless times where some dps never used one interrupt an entire dungeon. Dungeons have become a mindless AoE spam and that's what people are into these days. The best bet is to just make your own group. When I need a pug or two with a guild run, I just ask for people who know what the hell they're doing then stating and ilevel requirement. Usually, they just whisper and say they've cleared it on their mains or have some experience to show they're competent enough. Not surprisingly, they do better dps and actually use utility.

[Battlebeard]

Here's the thing though, if it works, who cares? Why go through all the extra effort of asking everyone who signs up what their raiding history is, verifying it to see if they're lying (people do this too), and all in all just spending way more time than just picking people with the higher ilvl? Its not like if someone is really terrible you can't just kick them and find someone else, either. And your anecdote was pretty much the best thing that can happen if you spend all that extra time (get a lesser geared person with slightly better performance and maybe shave a few minutes off of your run), its just not worth the time needed.

There is absolutely no easy, quick, time efficient way to gauge the skill of two strangers you never grouped with before. So people go with the thing that you can measure, which is ilvl.

Yes, the system "works" and it require less effort.

But the problem remains, that some people, good people, never get the chance to play at all. I have been lucky to have a reliable guild that take me for alt runs etc and sometimes even to main raids.

I also have a friend though, he raided end game from vanilla through cata. He was in one of the best guilds on his realm, don't remember which but he did every content pre-nerf as well as pre-next expansion. He cleared old Naxx, full SWP, HC LK and HC deathwing etc, etc. In MoP he took a break due to becoming a dad. He returned for WoD. He could play but not guildraid with a baby. So he tried pugs but he never got invited becuase he lacked the kills and ilvl.

This guy, one of the best raiders I ever seen, with years and years of clearing harder content than the leaders who declined him could even dream of, STILL got declined cause he lacked current exp. Yet, he would outplay EVERY SINGLE ONE in that raid and prolly match their DPS too, at least do good enough DPS.

He quit. And that sucks. The system crushed him. The "link achiv and ilvl" attitude sucked all fun out of the game for him.

I hate it too, but I have kept going since I still enjoy the game.

[Notdev]

Yes, the system "works" and it require less effort.

But the problem remains, that some people, good people, never get the chance to play at all. I have been lucky to have a reliable guild that take me for alt runs etc and sometimes even to main raids.

I also have a friend though, he raided end game from vanilla through cata. He was in one of the best guilds on his realm, don't remember which but he did every content pre-nerf as well as pre-next expansion. He cleared old Naxx, full SWP, HC LK and HC deathwing etc, etc. In MoP he took a break due to becoming a dad. He returned for WoD. He could play but not guildraid with a baby. So he tried pugs but he never got invited becuase he lacked the kills and ilvl.

This guy, one of the best raiders I ever seen, with years and years of clearing harder content than the leaders who declined him could even dream of, STILL got declined cause he lacked current exp. Yet, he would outplay EVERY SINGLE ONE in that raid and prolly match their DPS too, at least do good enough DPS.

He quit. And that sucks. The system crushed him. The "link achiv and ilvl" attitude sucked all fun out of the game for him.

I hate it too, but I have kept going since I still enjoy the game.

If you're good, you'll find a way. I firmly believe that. Sounds like you and your buddy should start creating your own groups together. He has yourself as a social connection, doesn't he? Invite him to the guild so he can be a casual in guild, and do stuff with the guild. The game experience is far, far worse if you don't have a solid guild to play with (even as a casual) and/or friends to play with. Honestly the way it should be, as this is an MMO. Social connections/bonds are an asset to have in WoW.

You can't blame Blizzard nor the players for groups wanting to get stuff done quicker, though. It's just logical. I haven't pugged Mythics yet (did them all with guildies/friends), but in WoD I would set mythic requirements to 700-705 (lower than most people, but higher than the instance drops) because it just ensured I would get them done quickly. If I know the person, hell yeah I'll carry them/allow them in with lower ilvl. But you can't expect everyone to give your friend the benefit of the doubt because of some raids he did half a decade to a decade ago.

It just makes sense. Its the way it is because its the way it should be.

[Jewsco]

If you're good, you'll find a way. I firmly believe that. Sounds like you and your buddy should start creating your own groups together. He has yourself as a social connection, doesn't he? Invite him to the guild so he can be a casual in guild, and do stuff with the guild. The game experience is far, far worse if you don't have a solid guild to play with (even as a casual) and/or friends to play with. Honestly the way it should be, as this is an MMO. Social connections/bonds are an asset to have in WoW.

You can't blame Blizzard nor the players for groups wanting to get stuff done quicker, though. It's just logical. I haven't pugged Mythics yet (did them all with guildies/friends), but in WoD I would set mythic requirements to 700-705 (lower than most people, but higher than the instance drops) because it just ensured I would get them done quickly. If I know the person, hell yeah I'll carry them/allow them in with lower ilvl. But you can't expect everyone to give your friend the benefit of the doubt because of some raids he did half a decade to a decade ago.

It just makes sense. Its the way it is because its the way it should be.

That is just it nobody likes rejection. And the new in game looking for system gives the player a lot of rejection. Not everyone puts up with it well. It be much better if one qued into the looking for and when a group picked you it told you. First off you could actually play the game while waiting for it. And you wouldn't know about the groups the rejected or even more annoying let it timed out so they ignored you. Be a much better system.

[HumbleDuck]

its not about insecurity its about effectiveness of clears - if we can take 845 who beg us to let them in WHY would be take 830 ? pls tell me why would you take someone 15-20 itlv lower then 15 other people begging to take them in .

That is true if you do not put an ilvl restrictionrestriction on the group in the first place. No one asks you to choose a 830 over a 850, people are mad because some are putting absurd restrictions on groups based on a ( for the most part) meaningless number.
About the effectiveness, I actually pug a lot, never asked for higher than 825 and they usually go well, maybe slower by like 5 - 10 minutes per dungeon, but smooth.