[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Morally Grey Storm]

Okay we were discussing mobility. No idea why you're bringing up other shit.

Mobility wise, we have it better than DKs in pve. That's objective. Attacking from range as frost is a dps loss afaik. Even so, we're talking about mobility. Nothing else.

I'm comparing Wraith walk (aka DK mobility) to divine steed (aka our mobility). Comparing these two, divine steed is better. The difference between the two is not nil, 30% movement speed is a lot.

Comparing wraith walk to divine steed and divine steeds wins out.

Overall? Yeah, DKs win. Duh. Mobility wise which is what I'm discussing? We win.

do you not realise that mobility is not confined to speed boosts and gap closers?

What does this 30% runspeed mean actually?
A Ret Paladin will get to point A withing 3 seconds, a DK will get there within 4 seconds.
Yay. Much difference. Very objective.

And FYI, not attacking at all is a guaranteed dps loss, which is why I pointed out DK ranged toolkit.
So while running to an add, a DK can start to wither it already, put some diseases, and what have ya.
Ret can suck on a horse dong while gloriusly galloping back and fro.

Think outside of the box for a second, embrace the whole toolkit each class has.

You would be right if not for 2 points:
1) fething long cds for Derpony and WW
on top of
2) fething short durations for Derpony and WW
which makes this runspeed difference obsolete.
We just don't have time for this speed advantage of our to take hold and bear fruit.

So yeah, techincally, you are right if you compare those two abilities strictly in a vacuum.

Practically?

[Uurdz]

Oh im buying the trinket soon. RNG is something that hasn't been kind even though I was lucky and got the Legendary ring that buffs AW. Beyond that drops were not happening so i had to take it into my own hands and craft/farm for days. So totally getting this deck tonight. After talking to a few other rets and reading the forums gotta get it.

Saying RNG hasn't been kind when you have a legendary is puke worthy.

[Donalld]

This is not the DK discussion thread - thanks

- - - Updated - - -

Saying RNG hasn't been kind when you have a legendary is puke worthy.

Lol agreed

[Morally Grey Storm]

This is not the DK discussion thread - thanks

we're not discussing DKs, thank you for being an attentive and comprehending reader.

[Alindra]

I said pve wise.

Wraith walk= 70% movement speed for 3 seconds on a 45 second CD. Only unholy can talent for increased speed on wraith walk.

Divine steed= 100% movement speed for 3 seconds on a 45 second CD. Can talent for extra steed.

Talents:
Cavalier: Can use divine steed twice. That's 6 seconds with 100% movement speed or two 3 second 100% movement speed boosts. All specs can use this talent.
Lingering apparition: Increases movement speed of wraith walk by 30% (making it 100%) and lowers the CD by 15 seconds.


Which ones better again? Don't ignore the fact I said pve wise. Divine steed is the better option, even our talent is better than unholys. Can't even mention frost DK who can't alter wraith walk with a talent usefully for pve.

Divine Steed counts as us being mounted, so it's affected by Heart of the Crusader. So it's actually 120% movement speed increase. So for sheer movement distance and speed, it is 71.4% stronger than baseline Wraith Walk. Against the talented version, it's still 20% stronger. The value of reduced CD vs charges really depends on a fight per fight basis. If you have to constantly move between 30 - 45s, then the CD reduction is better. If the movement requirements are a bit more staggered, than charges is better because you won't "waste" the lower recharge by leaving it off CD.

I did not ignore that, which is why I didn't mention DeathGrip and CoI spam.

Dragonslaying-wise, difference between WraithWalk and Derpony is nil, simple as that.
Not to forget about DKs actually being able to do damage from range and having it easier when it comes to swapping targets, therefore alleviating movement issues even more.

DKs have it better overall.

There is definitely utility in Death Grip (pull high priority adds into melee, Mythic Xhul and Mannoroth, I'm looking at you two assholes) and attacking from range while closing the distance (we used to have this in WoD; I sorely miss its absence) but there are things that this doesn't help with. When you have to GTFO of fire, move to a stack point, run to a spot to drop Seeds of Corruption - well - movement is all that matters.

do you not realise that mobility is not confined to speed boosts and gap closers?

What does this 30% runspeed mean actually? (1)
A Ret Paladin will get to point A withing 3 seconds, a DK will get there within 4 seconds.
Yay. Much difference. Very objective.

And FYI, not attacking at all is a guaranteed dps loss, which is why I pointed out DK ranged toolkit. (2)
So while running to an add, a DK can start to wither it already, put some diseases, and what have ya.
Ret can suck on a horse dong while gloriusly galloping back and fro.

Think outside of the box for a second, embrace the whole toolkit each class has.

You would be right if not for 2 points:
1) fething long cds for Derpony and WW
on top of
2) fething short durations for Derpony and WW
which makes this runspeed difference obsolete.
We just don't have time for this speed advantage of our to take hold and bear fruit.

So yeah, techincally, you are right if you compare those two abilities strictly in a vacuum.

Practically?

1) As mentioned before it's actually 50% baseline, but what it means is that over the course of the 3 sec duration, a Paladin will move 150% base movement. Base movement is 7 yards / sec, so:

Base: 7 yards/sec, 21 yards over 3s
Wraith Walk (base): +4.9 yards/sec, +14.7 yards over 3s
Wraith Walk (talented): +7 yards/sec, +21 yards over 3s
Divine Steed (base): +8.4 yards/sec, +25.2 yards over 3s

So, the distance it takes for a Paladin to cover in 3s (46.2 yards) would take a DK 4.5 seconds to cover. When dealing with mechanics that require quick reaction times (esp those that can insta-kill / wipe the raid), I wouldn't consider an extra 1.5 seconds trivial.

The difference in speed can definitely matter in raiding.


2) Wraith Walk precludes any other action. If they're trying to get out of (or into) dodge, then they're not using the ranged attacks you mention. Or defensives, or Death Grip. They're just moving. (To be fair, Steed is on the GCD, so the first half of it Paladin probably won't be casting anything, either.)


In terms of sheer mobility, I agree with @Taeldorian that Paladin come out ahead. In terms of whole toolkit, that will depend on the fight.

[Morally Grey Storm]

So to sum it up, Ret mobility is less shitty than that of dk. If you focus solely on sprint abilities.
Still shit, though.
Remind me why we're arguing over it?

[Taeldorian]

So to sum it up, Ret mobility is less shitty than that of dk. If you focus solely on sprint abilities.
Still shit, though.
Remind me why we're arguing over it?

Only because someone was trying to compare our strengths and weaknesses to other classes and missed the mark when talking about mobility.

Our mobility in pve isn't bad. As @Alindra pointed out its actually more than 100% movement speed. Thank you for pointing that out btw, no idea why that slipped my mind.

I've had no trouble with double DS as ret when doing dungeons and I've had even less trouble with one steed as holy in dungeons. It can get a bit scary with just one steed, but that's a holy problem. You can take cavalier as ret with no issues because the other talents are pretty shit in pve.

In pvp, we obviously know what the deal is. In pve I don't have much trouble moving out of fire or running to a drop point. It could be a tad bit better sure, but it's not overwhelmingly bad. At least not in EN.

Overall though, Alindra summed everything up really well.

[Alindra]

Our mobility in pve isn't bad. As @Alindra pointed out its actually more than 100% movement speed. Thank you for pointing that out btw, no idea why that slipped my mind.

Probably because it's such an obscure mechanic. It's easy to think of Divine Steed as a generic speed buff with a mount graphic, not a full blown (albeit temporary) combat mount, with all that entails. Besides the tooltip being misleading, they also removed speed from your character sheet so it's not something you could even accidentally notice or test without a UI enhancement - but that's a different discussion entirely.

I've had no trouble with double DS as ret when doing dungeons and I've had even less trouble with one steed as holy in dungeons. It can get a bit scary with just one steed, but that's a holy problem. You can take cavalier as ret with no issues because the other talents are pretty shit in pve.

I didn't participate in any beta Legion raids, but if post-patch Mythic HFC and Legion Mythic Dungeons are any indication, Retribution with Cavalier should be sufficient to deal with movement based mechanics.

That being said, there are still many annoyances with our current setup. It's frustrating having to choose between Divine Intervention and Cavalier when I used to have both in WoD. (Reminds me of going from having Pursuit of Justice and LAotL to having to choose between them.) I'm also very annoyed with fights where movement is more frequent than Steed recharges OR fights that mix movement mechanics (save steed for that) and ranged add spawning (like Odyn).

It's serviceable, but it's a stark reminder of what we lost from WoD. It's really the target swapping that kills me. I used to very much focus on priority adds at the detriment of my overall dps, but now we're punished even more severely for doing that. Blizzard said they don't want to homogenize the classes and would rather double down on their strengths. Alright - but I'm still not sure what our claim to fame even is.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Only because someone was trying to compare our strengths and weaknesses to other classes and missed the mark when talking about mobility.

Our mobility in pve isn't bad.

it isn't good either, though.
Especially so when compared to classes other than DKs.

Lagging behind your dungeon group is a sublime experience, don't you think?

OFcourse it might be enough to deal with encounter mechanics, but that's the end of it - just enough.
There is no room for comfort in there.

Anyway, I don't want to bicker with you over nothing.
Ret mobility is enough to deal with most encounters.

[Deleted]

I didn't participate in any beta Legion raids, but if post-patch Mythic HFC and Legion Mythic Dungeons are any indication, Retribution with Cavalier should be sufficient to deal with movement based mechanics.

double steed does not cover all mobility issues not even in normal mythics. Let´s take odin as an example if the fight is sufficiently short you can manage but if the fight takes more than 3 stomps (crap group with 2 dead dds due to brainlag) you are out of steed charges. and lets be honest cheat death >> steed.

[Vanderhuge]

double steed does not cover all mobility issues not even in normal mythics. Let´s take odin as an example if the fight is sufficiently short you can manage but if the fight takes more than 3 stomps (crap group with 2 dead dds due to brainlag) you are out of steed charges. and lets be honest cheat death >> steed.

DI + Odyn = bad idea. If you try to stay in with DI up, you're getting a free trip to the nosebleeds. Divine Steed will be better in Mythic+ when you're forced to run out more than twice. I'm really not looking forward to that on M+10 with a boss HP buff. Would also be nice if we didn't need a legendary for a base movement speed increase, but that's Legion for you.

[Deleted]

DI + Odyn = bad idea. If you try to stay in with DI up, you're getting a free trip to the nosebleeds. Divine Steed will be better in Mythic+ when you're forced to run out more than twice. I'm really not looking forward to that on M+10 with a boss HP buff. Would also be nice if we didn't need a legendary for a base movement speed increase, but that's Legion for you.

Odin might be a bad example true but I consider this not proccing of DI a bug. I should be first checked if the death could be prevented, if that comes up negative you can get the audience seats...
Anyway if we stay in the same instance lets look at hylia (valkyr in training lady) downtime is a joke on that one and if you go back and forth a couple of times you will eventually end up without pony. Cavalier only delays this point.

[Takeshiren]

Hi guys,

Was just looking at the Simcraft stuff from Sol a bit earlier, and can see they are for ST only. I wondered what talents you guys were running in mythics? At the moment I am doing FV/Zeal/BoW/JV and DP.

What are you guys finding to be the best?

Thanks,

[Deleted]

Hi guys,

Was just looking at the Simcraft stuff from Sol a bit earlier, and can see they are for ST only. I wondered what talents you guys were running in mythics? At the moment I am doing FV/Zeal/BoW/JV and DP.

What are you guys finding to be the best?

Thanks,

I run the same but with crusde instead of dp, I find zeal is a good compromise between trash and boss dps which helps a lot. Probably going to go with a more trash heavy build for mythic+ even though I'll lose a lot of ST. Consecration has been really strong for me when trying it out

[Takeshiren]

I run the same but with crusde instead of dp, I find zeal is a good compromise between trash and boss dps which helps a lot. Probably going to go with a more trash heavy build for mythic+ even though I'll lose a lot of ST. Consecration has been really strong for me when trying it out

Hi!

Thanks for this, but if you aren't using DP would you still use JV? If you do when do you use it?

Thanks,

[ruiizu]

Am I crazy or was there a stealth nerf to Shield of Vengeance? The other day it was absorbing 800k according to the buff, last night it was reading 400k.

Also Divine Steed not being off GCD is really cancer. Imagine if Charge or Heroic Leap were on GCD.

[Ulthane]

Saying RNG hasn't been kind when you have a legendary is puke worthy.

Haha overall other slots.

[Deleted]

Am I crazy or was there a stealth nerf to Shield of Vengeance? The other day it was absorbing 800k according to the buff, last night it was reading 400k

SoV can crit as far as I know. Could that be the issue here? to me 400k sounds pretty reasonable (more or less still a shitty absorb for the cooldown...).

Also Divine Steed not being off GCD is really cancer. Imagine if Charge or Heroic Leap were on GCD.

aren´t they?

[-Rufio-]

so now that i've gotten Ashes to Ashes going the long way, which is next.

Deflection x3 - 30 sec off SoV ---> Echo of the Highlord

or

Embrace the Light x3 - +45% to flash of light ---> Divine Tempest


This is for a PVE raid template. Starting heroic and then into mythic.

It seems like echo would benefit more with the 1.5min SoV and guaranteed 10%+ damage for Templars verdict and divine storm.

Any input?

[Deleted]

Hi!

Thanks for this, but if you aren't using DP would you still use JV? If you do when do you use it?

Thanks,

I don't use it at all for damage but sometimes I need the self healing from it