Havoc in Legion: 7.2.5 Guide

[Schlosh]

I personally love to put my FoTI down whenever I VR since VR is off the GCD and this guarantees that the full duration and the explosion all go off inside that MoMo window then.

[Vanyali]

Nobody can tell me where on the sims it tells you stat weights?

Missed yours; RIP work.

Options -- Scaling, check "enable scaling" and "all stats". It'll show up near the top under "Results, Spec, & Gear" tab.

[mitre27]

Missed yours; RIP work.

Options -- Scaling, check "enable scaling" and "all stats". It'll show up near the top under "Results, Spec, & Gear" tab.

Thanks a lot.

[deathmark]

I have the feeling momentum build is going to be aids on mythic progression. It does the most sim dps but i after testing some of the bosses on beta, i cant imagine being able to keep perfect uptime while dealing with mythic boss mechanics. Also using your utility/escapes to do damage is just kinda shitty all around.

[Coalbane]

You wont refresh Momo if you're out of fury so FotI is always best used as the first ability in a Momo window

Good point. I think this steers us towards a separate, but more practical, subtopic of "Priority List Within Limited 4s Momo Window" vs. the usual "Overall Priority List Based on DPCT."

As for FoTI, I might need to tweak that just slightly given that we went RoTI first, and RoTI does something I wasn't sure whether or not it does - it double dips momo. Having momo up for the duration is good, having it up for the explosion is good, but having it up for both means that both the initial damage *and* the explosion seem to be hit with the modifier, increasing the damage by quite a bit for being in that window. Which means it just needs two positions on there to reflect with and without the trait, really.

If you have the time to expand on the APLs, that would be much appreciated. For me, they are the most useful bit of theorycrafting, as they guide actual gameplay during raids. I am particularly interested now in how our priority list changes due to the number of "channel" or time-based spells we have and the limited Momentum window, after the comments by Shirofune and kliffharry.

Not taking Haste into account, we have:

FotI - 3s until explosion
Eye Beam - 2s channel
Fel Barrage - 1s channel

I can't log into the game right now, but IIRC, our GCD is 1s and Momo is applied upon casting FR/VR? I believe FR is on the GCD, but VR is not? If that is true, we lose 1s of the buff due to GCD on FR? That's cutting it pretty fine on RotI even if you do drop it immediately.

Furthermore, I do not believe Bloodlet/TG damage is applied immediately to target upon cast, due to "travel time" of glaive so it's risky to wait until the last second to TG.

I will be testing some of this tomorrow when I can play.

[Qck]

Thought on Hidden Satyr vs Distant Army for neck enchants?

According to Sim they're around 400 DPS difference(in favor of Satyr) for me on ST. I was under the impression that Distant Army was AoE damage, so I'd almost be willing to sacrifice less than .5% ST damage for extra AoE.

[Deleted]

Thought on Hidden Satyr vs Distant Army for neck enchants?

According to Sim they're around 400 DPS difference(in favor of Satyr) for me on ST. I was under the impression that Distant Army was AoE damage, so I'd almost be willing to sacrifice less than .5% ST damage for extra AoE.

I haven't simmed it myself, but if the difference is only 400 DPS then I will probably be running Distant Army for that AoE gain. There's so few ST fights after all.

Does anyone have that list of Trinket DPS rankings? I saw it a long time ago but can't find it now. I'm trying to figure out BIS trinkets for both AoE and ST, since I got my hands on a darkmoon trinket it'd be a shame to have to swap it out for a dungeon trinket.

[Qck]

I haven't simmed it myself, but if the difference is only 400 DPS then I will probably be running Distant Army for that AoE gain. There's so few ST fights after all.

Not sure about the validity of the enchants in SimC currently, but I get 4593 DPS for Satyr and 4403 DPS for Distant Army.

That's only 190 DPS, and if that holds true in game it seems like Distant Army might be a no-brainer.

[Venthayne]

So reading over the thread, and the first info page, I'm getting a bit confused (for some reason, it was prolly posted somewhere clear as day but maybe I'm just being a dumbass) should I be pooling to 70ish fury before felrushing or VR for momentum or should be I hitting one of those as soon as the momentum fades?

Example would be if I had 70Fr, felrushed, chaos strike until I got like 25 fury left, throw glaive,(momentum fades then)

Should I next build up with demonbite to 70 then felrush, chaos strike OR Felrush into a possible eyebeam if up, if not up Fury/glaive?

(again, sorry if this is somewhere, and appreciate your work on the thread.)

[Shirofune]

Build Fury, there's no point going into a Momentum window with no Fury to spend

[Vanyali]

Build Fury, there's no point going into a Momentum window with no Fury to spend

This is wrong.

Your concern is first and foremost your momo uptime - if you're not at the highest uptime you're absolutely wasting your momo. Do not build and hold things on CD.

Use VR when it's off CD, use FR when it's going to be capped (not *when* it caps) or there's a lot of aoe going out and you don't have the buff. There are quite a few abilities that you can use without any fury (FBarr, TG, FoTI), and using a momo window with one or two dbites isn't as a bad as losing that window entirely.

- - - Updated - - -

If you have the time to expand on the APLs, that would be much appreciated. For me, they are the most useful bit of theorycrafting, as they guide actual gameplay during raids. I am particularly interested now in how our priority list changes due to the number of "channel" or time-based spells we have and the limited Momentum window, after the comments by Shirofune and kliffharry.

Not taking Haste into account, we have:

FotI - 3s until explosion
Eye Beam - 2s channel
Fel Barrage - 1s channel

I can't log into the game right now, but IIRC, our GCD is 1s and Momo is applied upon casting FR/VR? I believe FR is on the GCD, but VR is not? If that is true, we lose 1s of the buff due to GCD on FR? That's cutting it pretty fine on RotI even if you do drop it immediately.

Furthermore, I do not believe Bloodlet/TG damage is applied immediately to target upon cast, due to "travel time" of glaive so it's risky to wait until the last second to TG.

I will be testing some of this tomorrow when I can play.

If you're looking for Simc APLs, Pawkets on our discord would be your best bet - he's the guy that puts them all together, and has a much better understanding than I could convey.

That being said, our APLs really boil down to something really simple:

don't let anything sit on CD (unless there's AoE coming).


Eye Beam should be used on CD w/ anguish (unless it's ST and there's an add in 45s).
FoTI should not sit on CD, especially with RotI (again, unless it's ST and there's an add in 1min).
Fbarr should never sit at 5 charges, even if AoE is coming (you can rebuild it in that AoE, and your ST abilities will proc more charges) unless it's roughly 10s of a hold.
TG should never sit on CD, in any situation.
FR should never sit on CD, in any situation.
VR should never sit on CD, in any situation.

Outside of that, build with Dbite and spam CStrike

Yes, FR is on a CD and VR is not, so that does have to be taken into account slightly. Usually not that big of an issue. TG should generally be one of the earlier things to use (in dungeons) as it eats out that "travel time" for smaller bosses (same w/ FBarr), but it's likely that it calculates damage on cast, not hit (would need more work to confirm this).

[Shirofune]

This is wrong.

Your concern is first and foremost your momo uptime - if you're not at the highest uptime you're absolutely wasting your momo. Do not build and hold things on CD.

Use VR when it's off CD, use FR when it's going to be capped (not *when* it caps) or there's a lot of aoe going out and you don't have the buff. There are quite a few abilities that you can use without any fury (FBarr, TG, FoTI), and using a momo window with one or two dbites isn't as a bad as losing that window entirely.

If you've no Fury and no skills that require no Fury available, how going into a Momo window is a good idea?

You're at 10 Fury, your FBarrage is on CD and you've only one charge of TG. You've a Fel Rush charge available and VR is on CD.

So, you VR in, you've now 35 Fury. Not enough to Chaos Strike. So you use your Throw Glaive. You've 2 GCDs in which you're doing nothing / generating Fury.

Whats the point of that? Momo uptime means nothing if you're using it on skills that deal no damage. I rather lose a 3% uptime if I know I'm using it in skills that are worth it instead of Demon's Bite any day.

[Vanyali]

If you've no Fury and no skills that require no Fury available, how going into a Momo window is a good idea?

You're at 10 Fury, your FBarrage is on CD and you've only one charge of TG. You've a Fel Rush charge available and VR is on CD.

So, you VR in, you've now 35 Fury. Not enough to Chaos Strike. So you use your Throw Glaive. You've 2 GCDs in which you're doing nothing / generating Fury.

Whats the point of that? Momo uptime means nothing if you're using it on skills that deal no damage. I rather lose a 3% uptime if I know I'm using it in skills that are worth it instead of Demon's Bite any day.

Because your'e disrupting your entire momo sequence all the way down the line.

If you want a lower uptime, that's fine. For you. It's not optimal, and using a Dbite or two then a CS isn't worth losing the overall uptime. Not to mention an instance where you have zero TG should be extraordinarily rare, as there's no benefit to keeping it at 0 charges.

[Shirofune]

Because your'e disrupting your entire momo sequence all the way down the line.

If you want a lower uptime, that's fine. For you. It's not optimal, and using a Dbite or two then a CS isn't worth losing the overall uptime. Not to mention an instance where you have zero TG should be extraordinarily rare, as there's no benefit to keeping it at 0 charges.

Except there's no downtime delaying Momo 4 seconds or 6. Unless you're sitting on 2 charges of Fel Rush or VR without CD.

[Vanyali]

Except there's no downtime delaying Momo 4 seconds or 6. Unless you're sitting on 2 charges of Fel Rush or VR without CD.

Which is exactly what I said.

You don't ever wait to build fury. That doesn't mean slam your momo abilities like a kid discovering porn - you just don't ever delay your regular FR / VR use because you don't have enough fury.

[Deix-EU]

Which is exactly what I said.

You don't ever wait to build fury. That doesn't mean slam your momo abilities like a kid discovering porn - you just don't ever delay your regular FR / VR use because you don't have enough fury.

What is assumed is DB is authorized in momo with optimal uptime to benefit CS later on in the chain if there's no TG / Fury available for the rest to do WHICH happens a lot cause FR and Vengeance alone isn't gonna make you CS a lot.

In fact, I take a Build Fury into CS as a delayed sequence with 1/2 momo in between.

[Deleted]

What why wouldnt u delay FR for getting extra fury if you arent going to cap at 2 charges? Im getting 55-57% uptime on momo on dummy (demon blades) and I always try to wait for fury before FR/VR. OFC dont let ur FR charges cap...

[Deleted]

So i've semi decided to spend my AP on Demon Rage / Contained fury instead of going for Inner demons. Which one of the two traits should i go for first? I kinda want the extended fury bar but not sure if it's better. Any advice?

[Dvorjak]

After I acquire Momentum, I can get 2 Chaos Strikes in during it's uptime, but if I have enough fury, I can get a 3rd Chaos Strike in, but it won't be during Momentum.

In this situation is it better to hold off on Chaos Strike to reapply momentum and then use it? Or use Chaos Strike without momentum so you can get more Chaos Strikes in overall?

[Deix-EU]

After I acquire Momentum, I can get 2 Chaos Strikes in during it's uptime, but if I have enough fury, I can get a 3rd Chaos Strike in, but it won't be during Momentum.

In this situation is it better to hold off on Chaos Strike to reapply momentum and then use it? Or use Chaos Strike without momentum so you can get more Chaos Strikes in overall?

Momo uptime when you can reach 80%~ which isn't possible with Demon Blades answer your question. Focus momo uptime and do your priorities during each momo which means TG > CS > DB. At 0.5 sec at the end of momo, I'm using FR/VR. It's really simple in fact. The harder part is that momo is 4 sec, which make a lot of move on the screen every 4 sec.

You'll get eventually a window where you have FR / VR unavailable. During that time, build Fury / TG and spend accordingly while maintaining your fury at 70/80 AS LONG as you'll get everything ready (fury, TG etc.) for when one of VR/FR is available.

- - - Updated - - -

What why wouldnt u delay FR for getting extra fury if you arent going to cap at 2 charges? Im getting 55-57% uptime on momo on dummy (demon blades) and I always try to wait for fury before FR/VR. OFC dont let ur FR charges cap...

It's because with prepared you can maintain 80% momentum uptime while with Demon Blades you'll rather optimize the windows you get and so waiting for fury a bit to tempo your damage abilities. This is also why a perfect prepared build is better.