Britain will veto EU army, says Defence Secretary

[Halbarad]

That's like breaking up with your partner, refusing to leave the house and then wanting a say in what's for dinner.

Dear Britain,
You left. Shut the fuck up.

As long as they are paying in, they have a say.

[Zelorra]

How many EU soldiers died in this American war in 3rd world shit holes in the past 50 years? UK doesn't count, you said.

You don't have internet or what?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalit...in_Afghanistan

This is not really up to date as I can tell. The answer is though: too many, for nothing. OK, I understand 9/11, let's say US was attacked, NATO went in, fucked them up, why the fuck stay there now, 15 years later? How much democracy can you spread until it's job done?

Europe needs a European army that is used to defend Europe, not invade shit countries for decades...

[Draco-Onis]

Nonsense. Again, you're making the mistake of using a negative reason for what is supposed to be a positive project. The negative reasons for remaining lead to Britain leaving. There was a complete absence of positive arguments for remaining in the EU. Forcing a poor deal on to the UK will be detrimental to both the EU and the UK, and will further decrease pro EU sentiment. The EU project is facing an existential threat on at least four fronts: Economically, politically, militarily, and ideologically (Free movement of people). Each one of these categories has several issues underlying it.

It's spiteful, petty, short-sighted, and reminiscent of exactly the kind of partisanship the EU was supposed to bring to an end across Europe. In attempting to ensure no other one state leaves, one is punishing the whole EU block, as if the problems and issues noted above were either irrelevant or non-existent.

I think the shape of the punishment has already been established, the UK will have limited and expensive access to the open market. Since the UK is still physically in the EU they will still have to abide by their rules and regulations in order to sell goods, the only things changing will be the UK will have control over its borders and no say in EU laws and decisions.

France and Germany are trampling over each other to become the new financial center of the EU so for both of these countries it will be a great net positive to their GDP.

[Theodarzna]

An Army? Man for a Not-Country the EU sure has a lot of the trappings of a Nation State.

[DarkAmbient]

That drunken megalomaniac Juncker shouldn't be given anything he wants.

[oxymoronic]

Quantitatively maybe, not in terms of quality though. The West-European armies have quite a bit of high tech, small but efficient units, and the US tends to send it's special forces and elite for training to various west-european countries to finish their training as the training tends to be quite a bit harsher and more specialized. The european army forces also hold a vast tome of knowledge or "experience" when it comes to fighting (world) wars on their own soil.

since when? all those people are dead... sorry experience doesnt carry over like that... havent you played like any video games?

[Kalis]

I am not quite sure of the details in the EU articles but I am sure they have been doing that for more than symbolic reasons, the UK seems to have been excluded in any decision making since brexit.

It makes no difference, the veto is still valid and will be until the UK formally leaves the EU.

Which is worse for the EU, the UK vetoing one or two proposals over the next two years, or the UK refusing to pay its membership fees for that time period? The EU can make those decisions after the UK has left, whereas the money is already pretty much budgeted for.

It is not in the EU's interest to piss the UK off, I get that some posters here think they should do, some politicians even do, but the grown ups will take over when the talks begin.

[Draco-Onis]

It makes no difference, the veto is still valid and will be until the UK formally leaves the EU.

Which is worse for the EU, the UK vetoing one or two proposals over the next two years, or the UK refusing to pay its membership fees for that time period? The EU can make those decisions after the UK has left, whereas the money is already pretty much budgeted for.

It is not in the EU's interest to piss the UK off, I get that some posters here think they should do, some politicians even do, but the grown ups will take over when the talks begin.

It's not in the UK's interest either to piss off the nations in the EU, it's not like they have no way to retaliate.

[Deleted]

Not necessarily. It's not fear of these consequences which is keeping France in the EU, or preventing people agreeing with Marine Le Pen.

It's not all based on the fear if consequences obviously, but I'm sure you would agree, leaving the European Union and being absolutely unaffected will bring a lot of votes to euroskeptic parties.

[Xarkan]

It is not in the EU's interest to piss the UK off, I get that some posters here think they should do, some politicians even do, but the grown ups will take over when the talks begin.

And why exactly is it in the UK's interest to piss the EU off? This is a two way street, every veto you make to prevent things that really has no impact on you is an insult on the rest of the EU.

[Kalis]

I think the shape of the punishment has already been established, the UK will have limited and expensive access to the open market. Since the UK is still physically in the EU they will still have to abide by their rules and regulations in order to sell goods, the only things changing will be the UK will have control over its borders and no say in EU laws and decisions.

France and Germany are trampling over each other to become the new financial center of the EU so for both of these countries it will be a great net positive to their GDP.

Your argument backfires on you. The EU nations will not want to punish the UK too much, precisely due to them being so closely tied in. Do you think that Ireland, for example, will be willing to destroy their own economy to stick it to the UK?

Merkel has already shown indications that Germany wants a good deal for both Germany and the UK. Germany wants strong trading partners, there are already plenty of nations in the world that they can get cheap labour from, there are not so many able to buy their BMWs in great numbers.

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And why exactly is it in the UK's interest to piss the EU off? This is a two way street, every veto you make to prevent things that really has no impact on you is an insult on the rest of the EU.

It is not an insult to the rest of the EU, it is not in the UK's interests to have an EU Army, so the UK will act in its interests where it can.

Would you want your politicians to not act in your interests? Of course not, so why are you expecting that of British politicians?

[Draco-Onis]

Your argument backfires on you. The EU nations will not want to punish the UK too much, due to them being so closely tied in. Do you think that Ireland, for example, will be willing to destroy their own economy to stick it to the UK?

Merkel has already shown indications that Germany wants a good deal for both Germany and the UK. Germany wants strong trading partners, there are already plenty of nations in the world that they can get cheap labour from, there are not so many able to buy their BMWs in great numbers.

I fail to see how what I listed above is too much punishment, to think that the UK will keep everything and lose nothing out of this is delusional. This situation seems to be what the people of the UK wanted and they seem to indicate they are more than willing to cut off or lose the open market to get control over their borders. The UK will also lose from lost from freedom of movement as well since now there will be barriers of entry and exit (passport, paperwork, immigration, etc) for skilled workers from the EU and UK as well.

[Deleted]

I did advise you to think

These are not things i have to think about, they are things i already know about.

The UK can, and minimally could always threaten to, stoke greater anti EU sentiment among remaining member states.

How?

This could be done either publicly, by say, declaring any nation that wishes to leave the EU would be guaranteed free trade with Britain

Not a compelling offer.

, or indeed privately in much the way the USA and Russia are often accused of stoking sentiment.

You mean by literally funding parties?

shrinking global importance of the block.

But the Uk will do fine on it's own!

one of which is Britain’s position on Russian aggression,

A position most of the EU do not share or like, Maybe because it is not so much the UK position as it is the US position, and Puppet number one is always keen on obedience.

and a second of which is that Europhiles need to encourage solidarity, not division.

Which it does by ensuring remaining inside is more attractive than leaving.

It would be exceedingly myopic and petty to try and punish Britain when so many millions of people are advocating for their own countries to leave the EU;

Putting it this way, if the pound had dropped to say, lets exagerate, 70 cents on the dollar (about 50% loss of value) - Would Anyone in their right mind advocate leaving the EU then?
Now, It's not exactly possible for the EU to hurt the UK that badly (without hurting itself) but to be clear here, the worse the UK does, the fewer people will think an exit is a good idea.

punishment doesn’t dissuade so much as galvanise support for leaving the union.

In the UK yes, not in the EU.

A positive case is necessary for EU continuation,

No we don't actually, politicians just need to stop lying about what the EU does to further their own interests.

If you believe that the manoeuvres and considerations above are irrelevant, and are instead under the impression that the total sum of EU British relations comes down to economics, then I’m afraid you are both sorely and sadly mistaken.

No actually the whole negotiation will come down to this, a EU/UK deal, requires consent from all EU members and the EU parliament.
That simply moves a lot of possible UK positions straight into the garbage can.
The Parliament for one will never under any circumstances accept a 'sweet deal' regarding Free movement, and they cant be made to either.
The Eastern bloc will veto anything that treats its citizens as second class citizens.
It does not matter what Germany wants, because Germany cant force everyone to comply, Leaving the UK with the option of giving up its service exports (about 12% of GDP if i recall) and accepting free movement.
And it doesn't matter what the UK does to the EU constituent states, because its negotiating with the EU.
That is a recipe for gridlock and nothing happening.

[NED funded]

I fail to see how what I listed above is too much punishment, to think that the UK will keep everything and lose nothing out of this is delusional. This situation seems to be what the people of the UK wanted and they seem to indicate they are more than willing to cut off or lose the open market to get control over their borders. The UK will also lose from lost from freedom of movement as well since now there will be barriers of entry and exit (passport, paperwork, immigration, etc) for skilled workers from the EU and UK as well.

Nah dude. Britain will be as if it never left the EU to begin with. They just will have less say on the decisions made.
None of the promises made by the leave campaign will materialise though.

[Xarkan]

It is not an insult to the rest of the EU, it is not in the UK's interests to have an EU Army, so the UK will act in its interests where it can.

Would you want your politicians to not act in your interests? Of course not, so why are you expecting that of British politicians?

I technically do not want an EU army.. In fact i voted no to something that relates to it in 92.

However

It is not your bloody beeswax in reality, you have decided to not be part of the long term plan. Hindering things that will not affect you is an insult, it is saying you want to rule over the rest of us.

[Deleted]

didnt all the remoaners in brexit say that the EU isnt building an army lol

Because the UK was vetoing it?
And strictly speaking this is not an army, merely a permanent structure for joint purchase, operations, and the EU battle groups (that already exist).

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

Hitler wins.

[Kalis]

I fail to see how what I listed above is too much punishment, to think that the UK will keep everything and lose nothing out of this is delusional. This situation seems to be what the people of the UK wanted and they seem to indicate they are more than willing to cut off or lose the open market to get control over their borders. The UK will also lose from lost from freedom of movement as well since now there will be barriers of entry and exit (passport, paperwork, immigration, etc) for skilled workers from the EU and UK as well.

Stopping the UK from exercising its rights, but expecting them to continue paying for those rights, is an unacceptable punishment.

Some people are willing to lose a part of the open market in order to regain full border controls, but the entirity of it will not be lost, as once again that would go against the interests of some EU members.

You have to realise that the UK is the fifth largest economy in the world and the second largest within the EU, we aren't talking about Malta here. UK and EU economic self interest will not allow those within the EU who wish to punish the UK, or those within the UK who want to cut all ties to the EU, from getting their way.

The rich nations, i.e. UK, Germany and France, will get a deal that suits them, Italy may have a say, the rest of Europe not so much. The economic power houses don't really give a shit what Holland, Portugal, or wherever, wants.

When people say that the EU is basically the New German Empire or something similar, it may be dubious rhetoric in a lot of instances, but economically it has a lot of truth to it.

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I technically do not want an EU army.. In fact i voted no to something that relates to it in 92.

However

It is not your bloody beeswax in reality, you have decided to not be part of the long term plan. Hindering things that will not affect you is an insult, it is saying you want to rule over the rest of us.

Whilst the UK is a part of the EU, it is their business. It is also their business even post-EU membership, due to NATO.

[Tijuana]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7313081.html

We need this army badly. Good thing they are leaving soon.

It's about time the EU and the nations in it decided they want to contribute in any way to their own defense, instead of relying on the generosity of the US.

[oxymoronic]

Hitler wins.

sad but true

the power of that micro penis from beyond the grave