Why blizzard nerfed TANKS AOE damage when its the lazy dps fault

[Deleted]

Because that's a rather inelegant bandaid for a balance problem. If tanks are doing comparable DPS to actual DPS of similar gear, while having far greater survivability, even if only exceptional players can extract that kind of performance from the class, that is a problem. Capping the amount of tanks in a group does not solve that problem, it simply makes it invisible.

Overwatch's solution was implemented there because it's a PvP game without any formal structure to the teams, and a single class' abilities often synergized very well with itself. It's a completely different game to WoW's PvE gameplay, and both games require different solutions to their own problems.

That's assuming tanks are in it for how well they place in the damage meters, and that's an assumption I would question the validity of. Tanks do have very boring roles at the moment, but giving them more damage does very little to make those roles more interesting. It just gives some people the satisfaction to topping the charts, while annoying at least 3 other people playing with them.

As for poor tank damage not making sense in regards to keeping the boss' attention... that's a gameplay concern, not a common sense one. If tanks can do damage comparable to a DPS, there is no point in having DPS. Tanks by definition have more mitigation and more health than DPS, which means they are far easier to keep alive than your average DPS. But if you truly need a reason for tanks to have the boss' attention, that's because they're flashy, annoying, and often used attacks that inflicted more pain than actual damage (hi, Sunder Armor!). Warriors taunt enemies towards them, after all. :P

Mind, I would be okay with more mechanics that involve threat wipes. Just to keep tanks on their toes. In fact, threat really needs to become a thing again (see below).

I agree with you partially. It's not so much "feeling important", as "feeling like a healer". I get that Blizzard is trying to push this "healers should deal damage if they have downtime" philosophy pretty hard this time around, but I personally don't like it. If I have so little to do that I can spend a good 25% of the fight DPSing, it means there's not enough unavoidable damage or dispels to go around. Just like threat should be important, so should healing. I've made a mistake in the Odyn fight yesterday that killed me with the boss at about half health (give or take, since he doesn't really reach 0 health). The rest of the group beat the boss without a single extra heal, and while that's indeed rather skillful of them (and dumb of me for getting killed), I personally don't think it's good design.

Any situation in which a group can complete a fight they are not overgeared for from 30+% to 0 missing a role entirely is a problem to me. If they can do it missing a tank, a healer, or all 3 DPS, that means that either the fight is tuned wrong, or the roles left are so powerful as to render another role meaningless. I experienced a bit of that in late Wrath of the Lich King, actually. We had a Blood DK who (with the help of some hefty Vengeance stacks) sometimes brought a raid boss from 20% to 0 with all healers dead. Without denying his skill, the fact that he could do that at all revealed an unbalance in the spec itself.

Nope, no need. Tanks have traditionally been good solo specs, just let them have that. Hell, make it so there's no one ultra-amazing tank spec for soloing like Blood DK was in previous expansions. All tanks should be reasonably close to one another in soloing potential.

Tanking has never been a role that people jumped at. Even back when LFD was new, in Wrath of the Lich King, queues for DPS were fairly similar to the ones we have now. It wasn't just threat or active mitigation or DPS that made people always avoid playing tanks, it was the responsibility the role entailed. Being a tank requires more knowledge of the dungeon/raid than being a DPS, because in many times you have to be proactive in positioning the mobs or setting up the pulls. Same with being a healer: sure, you can often just power on through any kind of damage your party/raid takes, but in a lot of times you're required to be proactive and know what's coming to be able to prepare for it.

I'm pretty sure the bottleneck for LFD nowadays switches between tanks and healers depending on the time of day. Just ask whoever got an instant queue whenever you get into a dungeon. Either way, as a healer I'd much rather the bad players didn't even try being tanks. If I have to heal through another Demon Hunter who flat-out refuses to use his self-healing, I'm going to start dropping out of groups and just taking the 15-minute penalty.

Also, I want threat to be a thing again. Threat didn't go away because people were afraid of playing tanks, it stopped being a thing because Blizzard can't seem to do scaling right. Threat was originally made trivial because DPS damage scaled with gear far, far better than tank damage, to the point even competent tanks in full raid gear were having trouble holding threat against them. Increasing the threat modifiers was out of the question, since that would unbalance threat for all gear levels below the very top. So first came the Vengeance system, and everybody complained that tanks suddenly did more damage than everybody combined. Then that system got tweaked a bunch of times, until Blizzard gave up on it and decided to just give tanks a ridiculous threat multiplier (I think it's something like 900% for Warriors now?). I'm hoping they have a better grip on scaling now, so they can dial back those threat multipliers and Make Threat Great Again. Or some other current meme.

Lazy? Sure. Unwarranted? Not quite, but maybe not for the reasons most people are giving.

The flat nerf was a bandaid solution to placate public perception of the issue before they can sort it out for real. Simply knowing tanks were nerfed would get some people to stop complaining, and a 10% nerf isn't enough to make or break any of the tanking classes at the moment. Expect large balance changes coming in the near future.

For tanks damage at first in current content. Tanks haven't been able to pull higher dps than pure dps specs, other than for cases where the dps spec just doesn't do well on that situation (Mass aoe for SP as example). They could have made tanks aoe abilities to scale on multi target, like make Soul Cleave or Blood Boil do reduced damage on secondary targets. This way it wouldn't affect tanks already low ST damage. Mass aoe scaling on fast dying targets is just irrelevant to think about just because tanks do have this few gcd's to burst before dps.

It is important for tanks actually be able to pull some meaningful damage, while not being at or above dpsers. When for dps specs the scaling might be 50k for bad, 100k for average and 150k for elite player, it is not like that for tanks. Bad tank dies, average tank survives and elite tank survives while pulling higher damage. Again, it should not be ridiculous like in MoP, but if it was even a bit more than current 50ish percent on single target...

In WoD, healers felt bad for not healing tanks lol. This was 100% because of passive heals on tanks, ie. beacon, hots on progress. On farm, who cares. Some of your healers should have specced dps already.

"Tanking has never been a role that people jumped at." For any LFG content any role is something you can, and should jump into if it makes the process faster. So many people QQing about long ques on their retri paladin... Nowadays its not even about not having shield with you because its given you free.

Tank balance on soloing doesn't even matter, its irrelevant content which only few care about, and its more of pushing your own limits on a class you are playing. For DK class it could be awesome to kill boss x, while warrior is progressing on a boss that was done by DK times ago. It doesnt diminish the value. Mage solos are as impressive as DK.

Haven't seen the times when threat was a thing, but as far as I know it was a mandatory thing to do that didnt reward you for performing better. Like survival as tank. You do it or you don't, no middle ground.


And yeah, I just cant but agree on this. Another version of "33% off bloodboil nerf", which affected not only blood aoe in Highmaul, but also their single target and unholy/2hF aoe/cleave. Lazy ass shit that creates more problems than it solves.

[Perryn]

Tanking has never been a role that people jumped at. Even back when LFD was new, in Wrath of the Lich King, queues for DPS were fairly similar to the ones we have now. It wasn't just threat or active mitigation or DPS that made people always avoid playing tanks, it was the responsibility the role entailed. Being a tank requires more knowledge of the dungeon/raid than being a DPS, because in many times you have to be proactive in positioning the mobs or setting up the pulls.

That used to be a pretty common statement and to be honest, I think you can tweak it whichever way you want with personal anecdotes (which people tend to do - "Responsibility? What responsibility, I've never had issues with that") but the fact that the tanking % has remained pretty steady both during high dps/high healing/active mitigation/high threat/low threat - basically throughout tweaking whatever knob was thought to be the answer at the moment, shows that to be the actual case. I would argue that as much as the responsibility itself comes the implicit consequence of being blamed for failing either to take that responsibility, or failing in executing your role.

Healers have some of the same but generally can afford to be slightly more laidback - unless the tank is pulling mob by mob you can almost always make a viable case that the tank mishandled the pull (not necessarily you have to say it but people will often jump to that conclusion). Tank on the flipside will be judged on "does he/she move quick enough, does he know where to go, does he stay alive, does he appear to move the mobs strangely or gung-ho pull too much, or too little, does he smell/look/sound/appear weird".

There's plenty of blame going around in random groups of course, tanks are by no means -that- special snowflakes in this regard but the perception of tanking is often that the tank is the one to be blamed and then it's typically easier to go as dps and not risk that.

FWIW threat was fun to have as the "tank thing" IMO, I'm relatively new and started tanking in early Wrath but still remember that, including the threat management on bosses such as Lady Deathwisper HC (not being tauntable after she became active, meaning tanks had to consistently stay close to each other on threat and then the active tank stopping attacking until she swapped to the other tank, in order to perform tank switches for the obligatory tank debuff). It wasn't -that- bad either in 5m's, sure if you were very undergeared you'd struggle vs wellgeared raid dps but still doable. Did suck as a boomkin (tank was the main alt then, boomkin main), even when bad (and boy was I ever bad) you'd still ride that threat barrier quite tightly in many cases with your heavy hitting starfires (going from "I'm ok, sun is shining and birds are chirping" till "holy crap the boss is coming for me" in a single cast or two). But I digress.

My point is that if they can suss out threat better then that would be a nice tweaking point (Seems like a significant part of the issue is initial threat, so find some way to boost the first few (2-3) seconds of a raid boss encounter threat generation, then have it taper off to where the tank has to work to retain it for the remainder of the encounter), possibly combined with decent means to remain alive. Dish out more damage on the raid group to compensate, that way the healers still get to be powerful, dps get to be powerful, let tanks have some way to do higher dmg out in the world and less in raids/5ms (if it truly bothers people that we do high dmg). But don't take away threat, healing -and- dmg, that leaves no real fun in the role and then even less people would tank. There needs to be something to it.

[Tart]

You are aware the immersion is a very real aspect of media consumption, right? Perhaps you could go ahead and create World of Excel and you'd be very happy there?

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Still dodging I see.

Perhaps if you'd finally check that ego at the door, you'd get it. Friend.

Wow, just wow....

[Deleted]

I'm glad other people see this. I'm really confused as a protection warrior why I'm getting my damage nerfed. It already takes ages to kill normal quest mobs. Meanwhile fury dies to everything. DH and DK are the only issue. Why can't they just nerf them?

You're doing something wrong. When I play with a friend of mine which is a prot warrior and we do WQs he pulls most of the mobs he can find (lets say 10) and finishes them in the same time I finish 1-2 mobs which I'm already trying to kill while he's still busy pulling the mobs (I'm a shadow priest). Now tell me again how you're taking ages to kill mobs?

P.S. I'm just referring to the normal quest mobs. Everything else might be or might not be valid.

[Maudib]

All well in theory, but what this will do is encourage the less skilled players to go back to DPS. Decreasing the available tank pool is not a good move for the game.

What was I thinking... you're right. We should make tanking so mind numbingly easy to play because that will bring the players out of the woodwork.

[Halyon]

So I say mean things and hit you gently while the mage flings fireballs at your head and you'll attack me for 10 minutes.

Seems legit.

Right, ok, you want to stumble across a room with a giant annoying tin-can in the way constantly, hindering you from getting there? Logic goes both ways. And as the system is set up, tanks have the threat, so they deal with it. No, it's not very fun, yes, it's not particularly good in terms of sense, but that is nonetheless how it is currently. Unless they turn the system back to ye olden days of threat management, which I personally wouldn't mind because I'm not a moron with itchy trigger-fingers, then you can have your argument about doing meaningful damage.

YOU should check your ego. Your job is managing the boss as a tank, your job as a dps is to kill it, the healers are tasked with ensuring that people live through it.

If you want to do damage, you roll a dps, end of.

[Simulacrum]

You're doing something wrong. When I play with a friend of mine which is a prot warrior and we do WQs he pulls most of the mobs he can find (lets say 10) and finishes them in the same time I finish 1-2 mobs which I'm already trying to kill while he's still busy pulling the mobs (I'm a shadow priest). Now tell me again how you're taking ages to kill mobs?

P.S. I'm just referring to the normal quest mobs. Everything else might be or might not be valid.

Your problem is you're comparing to a shadow priest, and all priest specs are absolute worthless trash in world content. Obviously, he's going to look strong compared to that, but then - anyone would.

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...

If you want to do damage, you roll a dps, end of.

Yeah, that works out so great for everyone... what the game really needs is for the best tanks not to be rewarded for playing well to the point where they give up and reroll dps.

[Deleted]

I have played a paladin tank ever since BC played it as well true warth and a bit in pandara before i fell off for WoD and came back for legion. I am loving the numbers i am seeing (550k crit on SotR and around the same on judgment crits ilvl 835) i feel like i am doing something and not just standing around making sure the boss is punching my face in. In BC and warth it was a pain in the rear end to level as a tank or even do a normal quest as a tank in pandara it felt better but still extremely slow compared to DK's (got one of thous as well) this time around I feel I am almost at the same speed as pure dps classes for doing quests. I am honestly afraid that the 10% nerf that they are handing out will make us slow again to the point wear you have to switch to a dps build to do daily quests/world quests in a timely fashion.

Sorry for spelling or grammatical errors I unfortunately suffer from dyslexia and English is not my mother language

[Deleted]

Tanks are way too high even in single/dual target, so that even a Fire Mage can only compete if he uses Combustion.

[Snuffleupagus]

Right, ok, you want to stumble across a room with a giant annoying tin-can in the way constantly, hindering you from getting there? Logic goes both ways. And as the system is set up, tanks have the threat, so they deal with it. No, it's not very fun, yes, it's not particularly good in terms of sense, but that is nonetheless how it is currently. Unless they turn the system back to ye olden days of threat management, which I personally wouldn't mind because I'm not a moron with itchy trigger-fingers, then you can have your argument about doing meaningful damage.

YOU should check your ego. Your job is managing the boss as a tank, your job as a dps is to kill it, the healers are tasked with ensuring that people live through it.

If you want to do damage, you roll a dps, end of.

Fucking LOL.

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What was I thinking... you're right. We should make tanking so mind numbingly easy to play because that will bring the players out of the woodwork.

Mind numbingly boring is how we get what we have now.

They still haven't found that balance between fun and accessible.

[Barnabas]

No the reason is not "lazy dps." It's just bad design to have the tank do more than 20% of overall damage. That is the dps job not the tanks.

[Privs]

Anybody complaining about tank single target damage must be trolling. Roll a tank and try and kill any *healthy* mob as a tank. Then come back on here if you still feel like spouting crap. But at the point you will understand why people think you are a complete moron.

[Snuffleupagus]

Because that's a rather inelegant bandaid for a balance problem. If tanks are doing comparable DPS to actual DPS of similar gear, while having far greater survivability, even if only exceptional players can extract that kind of performance from the class, that is a problem. Capping the amount of tanks in a group does not solve that problem, it simply makes it invisible.

No, it really doesn't. Removing the temptation to unbalance the game is what Blizzard does (I recall an on use farmable world item that Blizzard simply disabled in dungeons/raids - it was a massive DPS boost).

Overwatch's solution was implemented there because it's a PvP game without any formal structure to the teams, and a single class' abilities often synergized very well with itself. It's a completely different game to WoW's PvE gameplay, and both games require different solutions to their own problems.

Kind of like how multiple tanks could synergise well with each other. If I was suggesting an exact duplicate of Overwatch, we would have one of each class in the raid. I'm saying cap the tanking (and possibly healing) roles. Blizzard already has trouble with encounter balance, this makes it easier for them and preserves the trinity.

That's assuming tanks are in it for how well they place in the damage meters, and that's an assumption I would question the validity of. Tanks do have very boring roles at the moment, but giving them more damage does very little to make those roles more interesting. It just gives some people the satisfaction to topping the charts, while annoying at least 3 other people playing with them.

Tanks have literally nothing else to do in dungeons. Like I've said multiple times, the gameplay must be compelling to stop people just switching back to DPS. Everyone is responsible for something in raids EXCEPT Tanks.

DPS have to damage. Healers have to heal. Tanks just stand there and have nothing to do since threat is a by product of hitting your face into the keyboard, damage is non-existent on single target (the most important metric for boss encounters), and healers are your primary source of healing.

As for poor tank damage not making sense in regards to keeping the boss' attention... that's a gameplay concern, not a common sense one. If tanks can do damage comparable to a DPS, there is no point in having DPS. Tanks by definition have more mitigation and more health than DPS, which means they are far easier to keep alive than your average DPS. But if you truly need a reason for tanks to have the boss' attention, that's because they're flashy, annoying, and often used attacks that inflicted more pain than actual damage (hi, Sunder Armor!). Warriors taunt enemies towards them, after all. :P

Mechanics and attacks which no longer have any impact on gameplay.

Mind, I would be okay with more mechanics that involve threat wipes. Just to keep tanks on their toes. In fact, threat really needs to become a thing again (see below).

I would be on board with threat management again on a personal level, but I'm also cognizant of the fact that less than a week into the expansion, the official forums were littered with threads about how "LFD queue times were unacceptable", mostly started by people playing a hybrid.

These same types of people would immediately post about how unacceptable it is that they have to do something that might be considered difficult on any level.

Threat simply cannot become a thing again without massive QQ. Blizzard burnt that bridge without providing an alternative path.

I agree with you partially. It's not so much "feeling important", as "feeling like a healer". I get that Blizzard is trying to push this "healers should deal damage if they have downtime" philosophy pretty hard this time around, but I personally don't like it. If I have so little to do that I can spend a good 25% of the fight DPSing, it means there's not enough unavoidable damage or dispels to go around. Just like threat should be important, so should healing. I've made a mistake in the Odyn fight yesterday that killed me with the boss at about half health (give or take, since he doesn't really reach 0 health). The rest of the group beat the boss without a single extra heal, and while that's indeed rather skillful of them (and dumb of me for getting killed), I personally don't think it's good design.

Any situation in which a group can complete a fight they are not overgeared for from 30+% to 0 missing a role entirely is a problem to me. If they can do it missing a tank, a healer, or all 3 DPS, that means that either the fight is tuned wrong, or the roles left are so powerful as to render another role meaningless. I experienced a bit of that in late Wrath of the Lich King, actually. We had a Blood DK who (with the help of some hefty Vengeance stacks) sometimes brought a raid boss from 20% to 0 with all healers dead. Without denying his skill, the fact that he could do that at all revealed an unbalance in the spec itself.

And pray tell, what gear level were you all? Because Mythics are tuned for the 825-830ilvl range. If you are above this, then you overgear the fight. It's that simple.

Nope, no need. Tanks have traditionally been good solo specs, just let them have that. Hell, make it so there's no one ultra-amazing tank spec for soloing like Blood DK was in previous expansions. All tanks should be reasonably close to one another in soloing potential.

Tanking has never been a role that people jumped at. Even back when LFD was new, in Wrath of the Lich King, queues for DPS were fairly similar to the ones we have now. It wasn't just threat or active mitigation or DPS that made people always avoid playing tanks, it was the responsibility the role entailed. Being a tank requires more knowledge of the dungeon/raid than being a DPS, because in many times you have to be proactive in positioning the mobs or setting up the pulls. Same with being a healer: sure, you can often just power on through any kind of damage your party/raid takes, but in a lot of times you're required to be proactive and know what's coming to be able to prepare for it.

I'm pretty sure the bottleneck for LFD nowadays switches between tanks and healers depending on the time of day. Just ask whoever got an instant queue whenever you get into a dungeon. Either way, as a healer I'd much rather the bad players didn't even try being tanks. If I have to heal through another Demon Hunter who flat-out refuses to use his self-healing, I'm going to start dropping out of groups and just taking the 15-minute penalty.

People shirk responsibility. Unfortunate, but that's how it is. Tanks have always had the aura of responsibility around what they do. Healers as well to a lesser degree previously, but now a good healer is arguably more important than a good tank.

Also, I want threat to be a thing again. Threat didn't go away because people were afraid of playing tanks, it stopped being a thing because Blizzard can't seem to do scaling right. Threat was originally made trivial because DPS damage scaled with gear far, far better than tank damage, to the point even competent tanks in full raid gear were having trouble holding threat against them. Increasing the threat modifiers was out of the question, since that would unbalance threat for all gear levels below the very top. So first came the Vengeance system, and everybody complained that tanks suddenly did more damage than everybody combined. Then that system got tweaked a bunch of times, until Blizzard gave up on it and decided to just give tanks a ridiculous threat multiplier (I think it's something like 900% for Warriors now?). I'm hoping they have a better grip on scaling now, so they can dial back those threat multipliers and Make Threat Great Again. Or some other current meme.

Will. Not. Happen.

I remember Vanilla/BC/Wrath quite well, threat was not an issue even with DPS scaling with the exception of Mages. The issue has always been the need to manage threat. It was not hard for a tank to hold threat until you hit a pack of mobs and a trigger happy Warlock starts focusing down the wrong target.

Technically that is the Warlocks fault in that example, but rarely was it perceived that way. "Shit tank, L2P, ur threat sux!"

Lazy? Sure. Unwarranted? Not quite, but maybe not for the reasons most people are giving.

The flat nerf was a bandaid solution to placate public perception of the issue before they can sort it out for real. Simply knowing tanks were nerfed would get some people to stop complaining, and a 10% nerf isn't enough to make or break any of the tanking classes at the moment. Expect large balance changes coming in the near future.

Some Tanks require tuning, a flat 10% nerf is lazy, and therefore unwarranted. Blizzard has a history of trying to fix one thing, breaking another, finally fixing the actual thing needing fixing, and leaving the newly broken item as it is.

[Firefall]

You're doing something wrong. When I play with a friend of mine which is a prot warrior and we do WQs he pulls most of the mobs he can find (lets say 10) and finishes them in the same time I finish 1-2 mobs which I'm already trying to kill while he's still busy pulling the mobs (I'm a shadow priest). Now tell me again how you're taking ages to kill mobs?

P.S. I'm just referring to the normal quest mobs. Everything else might be or might not be valid.

Not sure why the hostile/condescending tone, only to then undercut it with your edit. I've been playing and theory crafting this game since its infancy and can assure you I know my rotation.

Prot warriors are currently on the low end of DPS. Shield Slam makes regular mobs fast when you crit, but anything with higher HP takes ages, and Prot warrior AoE isn't anywhere as strong as it seems. If your friend is finishing his pulls in the same time as you, it's far more likely that you're not playing optimally--you've got some ramp-up time as shadow, but you should be doing a little over twice the DPS of him (~2.05-2.1 times their DPS) with pre-raid gear. Try multidotting?

[Holtzmann]

[snip]

So, if I got this right, the thrust of your argument is: "threat is meaningless and will never be meaningful again, and so the way to make tank gameplay interesting is to have them doing damage"?

I can't agree with that. For one, I don't think how much damage a tank does in a dungeon makes any difference to how interesting the gameplay is. How much damage they do while questing by themselves, sure. But since Wrath tanks always been able to pull multiple mobs at once and kill them all faster than any given DPS.

As I said before, tank numbers relative to DPS have always been skewed. Queue times have always been similar, whether or not tanks had to manage threat, active mitigation, or just deal damage. Except for some moments early in the game's lifecycle (back when Warriors were the only "true" tanks), threat has never been the issue. Having to shoulder responsibility and blame when breasts became upwardly inclined was the reason a lot of people didn't want to play tanks.

The idea that we can change tanks so more DPS will play them is flawed, plain and simply. Not every player out there is going to enjoy playing tanks, just like not everybody enjoys playing DPS (hi, I'm one of them). Playing a tank -- and to a lesser extent a healer -- carries with it a connotation of initiative and leadership a lot of people don't care for, and no amount of tweaking is going to change that unless you make the entire role of being the meatshield meaningless and have everybody pull.

The proof is in the pudding, though. If increasing DPS made more people tank, we'd have seen a noticeable reduction in queue times already. I don't see that reduction, even though tanks have been doing comparatively more damage now than they have done before (except in the early days of Vengeance, when they really topped the charts), which implies more DPS isn't an important element in why people play tanks.

[Halyon]

Yeah, that works out so great for everyone... what the game really needs is for the best tanks not to be rewarded for playing well to the point where they give up and reroll dps.

There's a difference between fundamental game flaws and class identities. Tanks doing comparable, even compensating for a bad/poor dps should not be the case. Threat management was made moot because idiots couldn't handle it, now the tank identity is just a tankier dps class, with a lot of dps specs being poor to begin with, and competing with TANKS for damage. AoE for the most case, ST for a minority of it.

Just one case (which was voluntary), been boosting a friend of mine through a few mythics earlier this reset, my ilvl was 839 or so by then (845 now I think, might be 1 higher, but whatever, details), and it went smoothly, despite him doing almost neglible amounts of dps...because the tank could compensate for him. Was a DH tank, one of the stronger tanks in terms of damage I think, so it was a stark comparison. How is this acceptable? I don't mind boosting people when I want to boost them, but through pugging this is possible.

Tanks don't do the same damage as DPS, but they're not so far off that it's not worthy to adress it. As a DPS DH, I'm sitting high on the chart, if not first most of the time, even in some aoe now, because I'm getting geared, only WW monks have been higher up on average with around the same ilvl as myself if I've compared. It's still not uncommon if the tank sits 2nd or 3rd on the dps chart in AoE, and occasionally 3rd on ST charts. Maybe I'm lucky with my tanks, that is a possibility, but the consistancy of it begs to differ a little, so tanks getting nerfed is not unfair in my view, but that said, there are dps specs that need re-tuning.

Bad class design does NOT excuse you to do dps comparable to the actual dps who can't take close to the punishment a tank can outside of a few strong cd's...

This is griping about a sympton rather than a root cause tbh...

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Mind numbingly boring is how we get what we have now.

They still haven't found that balance between fun and accessible.

Damage doesn't make it accessible. And according to you, you are so 'bored' that when dps is taken away from you, you tell the dps to check their ego at the door? Don't let it hit you on the way out, you won't be missed.

Hell, if it's really so bad to have all this power of mitigation and self-healing, and still not being powerful enough, then by all means let your egos have a vengeance like buff that only works outside dungeons, raids, and pvp content, and while the tank is not in a group.

[Spiffums]

You're doing something wrong. When I play with a friend of mine which is a prot warrior and we do WQs he pulls most of the mobs he can find (lets say 10) and finishes them in the same time I finish 1-2 mobs which I'm already trying to kill while he's still busy pulling the mobs (I'm a shadow priest). Now tell me again how you're taking ages to kill mobs?

P.S. I'm just referring to the normal quest mobs. Everything else might be or might not be valid.

Tanks use the same abilities while questing/leveling to kill 1 mob or 10. It doesn't take any longer or faster. If a tank spec toon is spending all day wearing down 1 mob at a time that is less time he is que'd in instances. It's the trade off Blizzard tried to make for time spent. DPS can quest for 40 mins to an hour while in the que Tanks and Healers can't because the que will pop almost instantly.

Yes there are people rolling Tank spec to speed up their leveling and questing but these same people aren't going to que up for the endless instance runs because they like to tank or are learning the instances they want to tank at higher difficulty levels.


There is enough pissed off people over this that the fall out will be bad and the people who didn't say a word will be who suffers.

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Tanks are way too high even in single/dual target, so that even a Fire Mage can only compete if he uses Combustion.

Fire Mages are supposed to use Combustion on Single Target.......it's part of their cooldowns and rotation. Why wouldn't a Fire Mage use Combustion every time they could?

[Raakel]

I second the idea of an off/deff stance for tanks. There's absolutely no reason why tanks shouldn't do equal damage as any dps class while tanking. It's just a conditioning you grew up with. Or can someone give any specific reason why other than PVP? It only makes sense in PVP though - you could simply tune it via templates. Set a tank limit for dungeons and raids and it's all good.

Anyone jalous of tank damage play a friggin tank! Problem solved....

[Simulacrum]

There's a difference between fundamental game flaws and class identities. Tanks doing comparable, even compensating for a bad/poor dps should not be the case. Threat management was made moot because idiots couldn't handle it, now the tank identity is just a tankier dps class, with a lot of dps specs being poor to begin with, and competing with TANKS for damage. AoE for the most case, ST for a minority of it.

Just one case (which was voluntary), been boosting a friend of mine through a few mythics earlier this reset, my ilvl was 839 or so by then (845 now I think, might be 1 higher, but whatever, details), and it went smoothly, despite him doing almost neglible amounts of dps...because the tank could compensate for him. Was a DH tank, one of the stronger tanks in terms of damage I think, so it was a stark comparison. How is this acceptable? I don't mind boosting people when I want to boost them, but through pugging this is possible.

Tanks don't do the same damage as DPS, but they're not so far off that it's not worthy to adress it. As a DPS DH, I'm sitting high on the chart, if not first most of the time, even in some aoe now, because I'm getting geared, only WW monks have been higher up on average with around the same ilvl as myself if I've compared. It's still not uncommon if the tank sits 2nd or 3rd on the dps chart in AoE, and occasionally 3rd on ST charts. Maybe I'm lucky with my tanks, that is a possibility, but the consistancy of it begs to differ a little, so tanks getting nerfed is not unfair in my view, but that said, there are dps specs that need re-tuning.

Bad class design does NOT excuse you to do dps comparable to the actual dps who can't take close to the punishment a tank can outside of a few strong cd's...

This is griping about a sympton rather than a root cause tbh...

This "bad class design" you're whining about is a consequence of the radical changes they've been making ever since they effectively removed threat as a mechanic at the end of TBC. Then they needed to give tanks something to do, which is either mitigate damage, heal themselves, or do damage.

You can't make tanks mitigate too much damage, because that gives you the same problem that threat posed: Bad players can't play tanks at all.

You (apparently) can't have tanks heal too much, because (apparently) that makes healers sad.

That only leaves making tanks do damage.

If tanks don't do a very significant amount of damage, then what's the difference between a bad tank and a good tank? Answer: There is none.

Of course, I suspect blizz' intent is for there to be as low a difference good and bad players as possible, which is why they constantly nerf tanks keep making these differences smaller, but all that does is make players like me not want to play them, because there's no sense of reward or accomplishment at all to playing well.

It's like lowering the dps of all the dps to the lowest dps out of all the dps and making it impossible to ever do more dps than the worst dpser in the group. Do you think dpsers would find that fun? I sure wouldn't. But that's what you want to happen to tanks because it makes you annoyed to see them be rewarded for playing well. My only response to that is: Fuck you. And fuck blizzard too, for moving ever more in that direction. Tanks are already awful to play as it is. The little light in the darkness is being able to actually have fun being powerful in 5 man and solo content, which is just barely enough to make you endure suffering through the tedium expected of you in raids.

[Maudib]

Fucking LOL.

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Mind numbingly boring is how we get what we have now.

They still haven't found that balance between fun and accessible.

Making mobs dangerous again makes it fun... every range has CC now... it should be a thing... interrupts, spellsteals, dealing with enrages, dispelling.

The reason we got such hard of of a prune, was because we weren;t using the abilities... we weren't using the abilities, because they were not needed to clear content.

How do you make it worthwhile to clear? Maybe add bonus chests at end of run... the more trash you killed, the better the contents.