Raid size a deal breaker in Legion? [Poll]

[CptEgo]

Also, as the game continues to bleed subs, it will be even harder for 20-man Mythic guilds to find decent recruits.

I am 100% sure this game is not 'bleeding' subs at all. I've never seen this many people in WoW before and I've been playing for 10 years. The amount of players everywhere everyday, is insane.

[Onizuka]

They are call Raids.

10 mans are ok.
But going 20 and 25 man back on Naxrammas. That feels like a real Raid.
Raid is a big bunch of people charging ahead to defeat an army, boss whatever. 10mans feel small, quiet.
20 mans feel thrilling, like an army or people and there is more satisfaction downing a boss.

You should had really felt these 40 man raids from back in the days then
(Excluding the total trash number of items dropped per boss tho)

[FelPlague]

So did you quit when in wrath you had to raid in 25 raid team to actually play the hardest difficulty?

"we downed lk 10 heroic" ... So?
"We downed lk 25 heroic" awesome man. That's supers cool

This has always been a thing. I would love to see you in vanilla when you needed 40 to do even the easier raids... And now your complaining you can't get 20 people for only the hardest difficulty? Kwlstrybrow

[Deleted]

I raided in a guild with 100 active players in vanilla, I raided in 10-25 raidsizes later on, I tried mythic, wasnt impressed and now raiding normal/heroic flex sized. I see basically no difference except closer ties to people in smaller groups. Even if you have 10 core regular raiders its always nice to take 3-7 extra players, sometimes its even easier due to more raid-wide cooldowns, sometimes its harder when you have to carry them...without flex you may not have those extra people at all.

Mythic 20 size is...well its a dev decision. I cannot see why its good or bad. If a mythic guild has good manager then it should not have problems keeping people in the guild. I left some 4-5 mythic guilds after first raid because of insane toxicity of guild/raid leaders (and other guildies confirming this behavior, oddly they stay in such guilds, probably masochists or something). And bleeding subs are problem for mythic guilds mostly...and mythic raiders dont lose interest in mythic raiding due to worse social aspects and stuff, they stop raiding because there is either toxic environment or huge content drought (= boring to do same content over and over again).

People come and go, mythic guilds suffer from low amount of new players interested in mythic raiding, its just exhausting to do LFR, normal and heroic in same raid instance for 6 months over and over again until they can try mythic content. Average normal/heroic guild does not have many issues, you can always put together some kind of raid group if you have 2 tanks and 2-3 healers, dps composition does not really matter. If you have this core team of 6-7 players flexible raid size is the best thing ever.

[Deleted]

What is comming? People was asking for 5man hard content during the last 2 expansions, so they gave that to players. Easy as that. It doesn't mean they will get rid of raids. If they wanted to have smaller groups wouldn't have Blizzard allowed 10 man mythic raids to disperse the community? So they could in the future stop making them and substitute them with 5man content as you say? Yhere is nothing coming in that regard.

Your avatar says you are from Barcelona, right? i guess you must be playing in dun modr then, how is the server doing population wise? or did you have to migrate to draenor/silvermoon because the lack of population?.
To the point: even though the expansion is gorgeous in my opinion, i have to say i am not seeing a big come back of players, because the genre ,MMORPGs, is in decline, so that is why they are moving to 5-man content, because nowadays playerbase demands that kind of size for grouping.
I am not against 20 man, 10 man or 25 man content, i am just saying that the future main content in wow is gonna be 5 man content, because i think that is the size the majority of the playerbase demands, it is the size (i think) for mobas, so it is the size it is gonna be dominant from now on.

[Osmeric]

To be honest, your not wrong, raiding might end up just fading out over time and dungeons may even end up being end game, I think alot of the community has massive raid fatigue after WoD.

Don't fool yourself; five man fatigue will set in even faster.

[Deleted]

Don't fool yourself; five man fatigue will set in even faster.

Nope, i do not think so osmeric, because of nearly zero logistics, because it ends up being a very close group of friends, if it did not started like that to begin with, and i have to say because i think they want to promote 5-man content.
Mythic+ and a good number of dungeons was something expected, 7.1 karazhan was a big surprise, and a very nice one.

[ComputerNerd]

What it needs is consistency.
The problem is not that 20 is bad and 10 is good, but that there was this transition from one size to another.
What raiding should have going forward is one size, plus or minus flex.

When we had 10 and 25, players managed to do both.
Then suddenly the community claimed 25m was too much work as one raid, when before a forced choice they managed two different sizes.

[Eurhetemec]

So did you quit when in wrath you had to raid in 25 raid team to actually play the hardest difficulty?

"we downed lk 10 heroic" ... So?
"We downed lk 25 heroic" awesome man. That's supers cool

This has always been a thing. I would love to see you in vanilla when you needed 40 to do even the easier raids... And now your complaining you can't get 20 people for only the hardest difficulty? Kwlstrybrow

No, it wasn't "always a thing".

It was always a thing that 25-man raid guilds boasted and claimed that what they were doing was harder, but as someone who did both in WotLK, it obviously total and utter self-serving, self-congratulatory bollocks. Some encounters were harder on 25, but not by much, some were harder on 10s, actually, again, not by much, and anyone claiming 25 was universally and meaningfully harder for anyone but the raid leader was straightforwardly lying to further their own ego (or that of their buddies).

[FelPlague]

No, it wasn't "always a thing".

It was always a thing that 25-man raid guilds boasted and claimed that what they were doing was harder, but as someone who did both in WotLK, it obviously total and utter self-serving, self-congratulatory bollocks. Some encounters were harder on 25, but not by much, some were harder on 10s, actually, again, not by much, and anyone claiming 25 was universally and meaningfully harder for anyone but the raid leader was straightforwardly lying to further their own ego (or that of their buddies).

most guilds downed 10 heroic weeks if not months before 25 heroic for LK...

and yes 25 was much harder, mobs we basicly scaled up 3 times more, meaning more health and damage overall then if it was 2 1/2 10 man groups, also giving better gear, and much more difficult numbers on mechanics

[Deleted]

The problem is not that 20 is bad and 10 is good

Nope it is not, i do agree, 40 man content was not bad either; The real problem is not the size of the group, the problem is that, unlike i thought it was the case when i joined retail, the population is not raid centric at all, meaning that the real population in a server interested in raiding, is a shrinking number with each expansion.
And because of that situation, raiding becomes more and more difficult with each expansion.
If the 2 sizes 10-25 still remained like in MOP, the 10 size would have totally canibalized the 25 format, not because 10 man was better (it was for me but that is a subjective opinion), but because it was at least possible.
If they make the 20 man size consistant over time as you say, it is gonna be the same, the problem still remains, we have a population that is less and less interested in raiding with each expansion, being the difference that this time, unlike in wod, there is an alternative end game content for smaller groups, and this content is gonna detract even more people from the raiding pool.

[Osmeric]

most guilds downed 10 heroic weeks if not months before 25 heroic for LK...

Most guilds never downed either.

[Deleted]

Raiding from my perspective is the best it has ever been, I played both tiers. It's tuned better, ie harder to carry players and the tools for identifying bad players are much easier to use

- - - Updated - - -

Would variety be better? Sure it always is but the tradeoff in interesting bosses and well tuned raids is too great to bring it back

[sosleapy]

Why is everyone talking like 10 man raiding is gone? my guild will be doing it...

[Lixo]

10 man is boring. It isn't a raid. 20-40 is where it's at. There will be no problems filling rosters as the whiners are weeded out.

Why is everyone talking like 10 man raiding is gone? my guild will be doing it...

Because Mythic is 20, which clearly your guild isn't going for at this point then.

[Fenderxx]

Why is everyone talking like 10 man raiding is gone? my guild will be doing it...

Maybe they are talking about Mythics? I am not sure, but I had the same thought as you.

[tehdef]

I love how your subject says NOTHING about Mythic and you don't even bring up Mythic until the last sentence.

Raiding is fine. I'm sorry you can't find 20 people. Blizzard feels it to be most balanced at 20 and does so based on empirical evidence, and not being a shitter with an opinion.

[Deleted]

most guilds downed 10 heroic weeks if not months before 25 heroic for LK...

Yeah, with gear from 25 normal/heroic. Nice try.

[Deleted]

33 specs on a 10 man roster. And the massive cries about people not being able to find a raiding guild cause the 5 dps spots are filled with the standard must have specs. No thanks!

[Aeriedk]

My fiancee and I have both agreed that if they don't bring back strict 10-man raiding, that we're not buying Legion. 20-man raiding, while looking good on paper, was the ultimate nail in the coffin for many guilds this expansion, even ones that already had a large, active roster. I despise larger raid groups because it's easier for people to get carried, and you lose some of the tight-knit, social aspects that you can only find in smaller groups.

Also, as the game continues to bleed subs, it will be even harder for 20-man Mythic guilds to find decent recruits.

World progression has always been based on 25m or more recently 20m.

I do agree that larger raid groups are less intimate, I disagree about it being easier to be carried (during progression). It's much easier to get a group of 10 to work in unison than a group of 20-25. During times of progression those few people in the 25/20 that aren't pulling their weight will bring down the entire group... it's not usually until after content is on farm that they can be carried.

If you really want to do 10m then just do 10H. Honestly you have a better shot of them making raid locks separate again than making a 10m mythic that way you could have both a social and progression group.