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MMO-Champion
Nope, you just went through more hoops to prove him wrong than any of us bothered to do. Until we get his armory so we can sim against it, then all his "proof" of vers being better is just him being worse.Originally Posted by gunner007
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2016-09-20, 02:23 AM #41Deleted
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2016-09-20, 04:09 AM #42Mechagnome
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Hey, go back there. Nobody from here will miss you. Another whiney beta-male who thinks anyone that doesn't agree with them doesn't get to say anything. Nope. Not how it works...and you didn't/couldn't actually argue anything. You're simply pandering to a nebulous consensus of a non-existent "community". Originally Posted by MetalJacx
First useful post in this thread other than mine... Originally Posted by gunner007
Let's just throw this out for shits and giggles - you're doing a world quest. Horde are doing a world quest. You don't play on a "safe space" pve server. How's that 10-15% extra damage going to fare when you literally get globaled by just about any other melee, including possibly other enhancement shaman?
Other point the 20% boost to healing matters, especially when coupled with an additional 10% damage reduction...two heals for 250K is 1/5 of your HP. Two heals at 200K are more like 1/8th...that's a pretty big delta considering you get about 5 heals before you go OOM.
If you avoid pvp at all costs then you'll probably want to do the same with versatility...but as the stat's name implies, it makes you more versatile and not more optimal. The itemization on most gear does not allow players to readily "stack" versatility as much as crit or mastery. Haste is somewhere in the middle in terms of what's available on most gear.
He didn't prove anything. He posted some information, which you did not do...begging the question, why are you still here? You are as worthless as your posts. Originally Posted by Theprejudice
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2016-09-20, 05:41 AM #43Keyboard Turner
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Why are you so hostile Professor? Sims and personal experiences have proven for pure dps versatility is not the best option...your numbers in your first equation were way out suggesting only 30% of our dps was boosted by mastery so maybe that's why you continue down this warpath?
I get the PVP/Survivability side of it but mostly people are concerned about max dps for raiding - and that's exactly what these guys and the guide written by wordup are on about.
Either way, calm down, get constructive or just forget about it....your armory will help others at least see where you may be coming from. How can anyone troll you from your armory? Contact in game at worst?
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2016-09-20, 06:05 AM #44High Overlord
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Again, PVP is a whole different beast, where you're wearing your PVP gear and trinkets. (With Vers or like my trinket, on-use vers). Originally Posted by Professor Expert
Then again, this was a PVE thread based on the questions asked in the OP. In my PVP gear I have 2mil, so that's around 1/4 of your HP for 2 heals, where 400K is 1/5, not 1/8th. (so again, .25 vs .20 - less than 5% difference)
Though I'll be honest, all the WQ PVP has pretty much been just pop CD's and wreck whomever is front of you or CC/Stun/jump someone in mid-fight. Unless you're a tank, well that shit's fun because you're nigh unkillable. The other thing you also begin to worry about is that if the enemy you fight has versatility stacked, you now are doing even less damage to them then before. PVP is more about learning when to trinket/CC/juke (though not needed for instant heals)/maelstrom management. If you're getting globaled, don't think any stat priority is going to save you. In fact, you should probably be looking into counterstrike totem if you're anywhere near world PVP.Last edited by gunner007; 2016-09-20 at 06:18 AM.
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2016-09-20, 10:32 AM #45Brewmaster
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So wait, he sims you out and proves that your way is worse, and yet you still claim he has no proof? ^^ Originally Posted by Professor Expert
He's literally showing you with math and trial that you are wrong, and you still refuse to accept it?
Ok, now I KNOW this guy is trolling.
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2016-09-20, 05:29 PM #46Mechagnome
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I suggest you take your own advice about calming down and posting something constructive. Originally Posted by KonArt1s
You can put together two different sets, but because gear no longer matters at all in instanced PVP (only ilvl), I myself don't bother with a "pvp specific" set anymore. The difference between 20% and 25% is 20% (.2 * 1.2). It's not insignificant and it's not irrelevant in pvp. Ask any healer if they think a 20% boost to healing is nothing...in a situation where we had to use all 5 heals to survive, that's 100% more healing. Originally Posted by gunner007
Enhancement shaman pvp is very flawed now when you're caught alone. Melee can wreck you because we take a lot more damage but do not deal significantly more than anyone else. We are so easy to kite that we're free kills for most hunters, mages and any ranged classes. With the all-damage build you might post better results in a group but outside of that you'll ensure your chances of survival are very low to zero.
The difference in damage output according to the sim website is 263K vs 286K, or 23K which is almost 10%. So you're giving up 10% damage for a 27% boost to all damage / healing and a 13.5% reduction to damage taken.
I take damage in pve. In dungeons or raids, sometimes I am not able to avoid certain boss attacks quickly enough and I have to heal myself and/or go defensive. Sometimes I assist the healer to keep others up who got hit. I have 60% mastery 10% haste and about 8% versatility now. I do more damage but I take a lot more than what I gained from the additional mastery. I would rather have 20% versatility, 20% haste and 40% mastery. That's closer to what I had before and I almost never had to heal in pve, and I was able to handle 2-3 mobs at once.
Another idiot troll accusing someone else of trolling, thinking that something was "proven", yet he couldn't quote the part where I said "versatility is better than mastery". This is a game, not a lawsuit...firstly, and those with your inferior attitude toward it should refrain from posting. You obviously have no clue about anything being discussed...so why even post? Originally Posted by Karlz0rz
Last edited by Professor Expert; 2016-09-20 at 05:32 PM.
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2016-09-20, 05:51 PM #47Brewmaster
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And he proved you wrong, that versatility is in fact NOT better than mastery. How does it feel being THIS wrong? EVERYONE is telling you that you are wrong, and yet you still think you are right? Damn your life must be exciting! Originally Posted by Professor Expert
I don't think I've ever seen someone as stubborn as you are on the Internet before. So..uhm..I guess grats on that? Your stubbornness is better than our mastery!
Enjoy living on your bubble mate!
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2016-09-20, 05:56 PM #48Deleted
Ignoring the obvious troll and going back to the first few posts:
Simcraft shows Mastery being ahead well below 60% haste ratio. For me Haste hit parity with Mastery in terms of value at around 30% haste ratio. I never took the 60-70% number too seriously - more of an eventual aim rather than something to get bothered enough to drop mastery for, but I'm surprised it showed that so low. I guesstimated it was around 40-45% when Haste would surpass it before I checked, and of course simcraft isn't flawless I suppose.Last edited by mmoc0df596f2b8; 2016-09-20 at 05:59 PM.
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2016-09-20, 06:10 PM #49High Overlord
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If your goal is open world/PVP, then yeah versatility matters (can't argue there, but again wasn't the point of this thread) - That's why I have PVP gear for being out in the world, so I can have separate gear for PVP/PVE. What's your iLVL that you're getting rocked by 2-3 mobs in the open world? Usually between cap totem and just normal cleave damage I don't really struggle to heal much if at all - even less so when stormbringer rattles off a bunch of procs. Originally Posted by Professor Expert
You gain 27% across the board, but that's already factored into the DPS listed. By gearing for versatility in a PVE environment, you've lost 10% of your total output (and it gets even worse the higher versatility goes, and suffers immensely from AOE) Even 60% mastery is a pretty low amount, as I'm stitting around 72% before food and with about 20% haste (with hailstorm). If you pick hailstorm as your go-to talent, mastery pretty much skyrockets to the top of the list in terms of stat priority.
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2016-09-20, 07:34 PM #50Mechagnome
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The point of the thread was a discussion, to which I suggested that the OP consider versatility for the reasons I listed. I'm not disagreeing with your post about mastery being better for flat-out DPS for the simple fact that it's far more available than versatility. I'm saying that flat-out DPS is not necessarily the "optimal" configuration. Originally Posted by gunner007
I wouldn't say I'm getting "rocked" by mobs, but they do damage that requires healing. That translates to downtime or a net DPS loss as maelstrom is used for healing rather than attacking...this is issue is drastically reduced with versatility at 20% or so...because the 20% boost to healing makes rainfall 20% effective, a free HoT that offsets incoming damage enough to be able to keep going without having to heal directly. I am glad that they made mobs more of a threat and that's why players have options, even though they are slimmer now than ever before, as to how to gear.
All of our AoE is entirely spell-based so yes, mastery matters more there, but only because you get more % mastery per point than with versatility. Suppose you could gear in such a way that had 72% versatility / 20% haste, what do you think the results would be?You gain 27% across the board, but that's already factored into the DPS listed. By gearing for versatility in a PVE environment, you've lost 10% of your total output (and it gets even worse the higher versatility goes, and suffers immensely from AOE) Even 60% mastery is a pretty low amount, as I'm stitting around 72% before food and with about 20% haste (with hailstorm). If you pick hailstorm as your go-to talent, mastery pretty much skyrockets to the top of the list in terms of stat priority.
Hailstorm being spell damage obviously benefits from mastery, although you have the option to choose +10% haste which would make more sense for that tier if you were trying to build up versatility. As I said in a previous post, you have some options in the talents there, that let you bias your damage ratio between spell and physical. If you choose overcharge instead of tempest, LB will quickly become one of your top 5, if not top 3, damaging abilities - and obviously there, more mastery will inflate that amount even more.
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Here is a hypothetical "sim" showing what happens if it were possible to have as much versatility as mastery:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...af151a5aacb6e8
317K DPS
All this does is establish that versatility is the better stat IF it is available in equal quantities. Point for point, mastery is better because you get more % per point. Also note the obvious fact that net DPS is substantially higher even though it is not possible to gear like this. This is just a "generic" enhancement shaman profile on that site, with mastery set to 0 and versatility increased until the % was where mastery was (77%).
Here is your suggestion of hailstorm rather than ancestral swiftness, that's the only change from the default profile:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...c9c5aa131ae900
257K DPS
And now, for the final sim, we have a POSSIBLE build that leaves the profile as default, but overrides as such:
Mastery: 50%
Versatility: 27.5%
Haste: 23% (includes 13% haste from gear +10% from talent)
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...ba5eccff8257ad
285K DPS
Unlike the first example, THIS example is something you could achieve with current gear and itemization, or at least approximate closely. Notice something important here...that the damage is about the same as the example you provided that was heavily biased toward mastery, but in this case, your healing is buffed 27.5% and the damage you take is reduced by 13.5% - for the cost of 1K DPS less (within error margin). This is where I'd rather be.
Edit:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...0da5e03eb65b51
The default "optimal" enhancement shaman profile on that site with no changes made sims at 258K DPS.Last edited by Professor Expert; 2016-09-20 at 07:39 PM.
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2016-09-20, 08:02 PM #51AskMrRobot's Human Minion
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This simulation has 35,000 secondary stats. Originally Posted by Professor Expert
This simulation has 22,000 secondary stats. Originally Posted by Professor Expert
This simulation has 16,000 secondary stats. Originally Posted by Professor Expert
Because of the difference in secondary stats, of course the first one will do more dmg. To run single-sim tests like this, you'll want to make sure the secondary stat total is the same in each one.
I also setup a 'stats' batch run that leaves crit where it is and varies haste, mastery and versatility. Single target, default talents. Here's the report: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...d615c0378e21a9Last edited by Zoopercat; 2016-09-20 at 08:07 PM.
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2016-09-20, 08:19 PM #52Mechagnome
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I stated that the first one was supposed to be illustrative and hypothetical, and that my suggested configuration could not be met with existing stat budgets. Stats were adjusted based on %, not by "stat budget" to illustrate the fact that stacking all mastery isn't the "best". Originally Posted by Zoopercat
From your own report, the combinations in positions 3 through 13 all hover around 254K DPS, off by a mere 6K DPS from the theoretical best. If that last 6K DPS is more important than having a substantial boon to defensive/healing utility...well, then you as a player have a decision to make.
Suffice it to say, VERSATILITY is a VERY GOOD STAT for enhancement shaman, and now we have numbers that show it.Last edited by Professor Expert; 2016-09-20 at 08:21 PM.
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2016-09-20, 08:21 PM #53The Insane
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You've definitely proven that Versatility is a good stat if you are comparing yourself to a shaman with a significantly lower item level than you, yes.
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2016-09-20, 08:29 PM #54Mechagnome
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Avg ilvl in my sims is around 840...but even if you were 850+ this will scale. Originally Posted by Imnick
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2016-09-20, 08:32 PM #55AskMrRobot's Human Minion
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Before I post this, I want to say I am not trying to argue for or against a stat. I am not our theorycraft expert, that would be Swol over at AMR. Originally Posted by Professor Expert
However, I *AM* trying to set up fair comparisons for testing, which is something I do all day. That being said, here's a comparison for your first example, the hypothetical one:
- Your sim with 35,000 total stats, 0 Mastery and 30,809 Vers: 317k DPS http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...af151a5aacb6e8
- A sim that also has 35,000 total stats, flipped to have 30,809 Mastery and 0 vers: 391k DPS: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...af95dbf7d75603
- Equal amounts of both, 404k DPS http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...fa32b6bf82657e
But a better way to look at it is that batch report I linked, which professor, you pointed out that you could give up 2-4% DPS and get the other benefits from a little bit of vers. For some players that might be worth it. http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...d615c0378e21a9
edit: just so you all know what I'm looking at. On any of those regular reports, scroll down and expand the 'stats' section. You can see the stat overrides there.Last edited by Zoopercat; 2016-09-20 at 08:36 PM.
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2016-09-20, 08:35 PM #56Warchief
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one 5 minute trial wont be enough. variance between each run (different amounts of procs [crits, enchants, passives]) wildly affect the resulting average. You'd have to do thousands of these runs to get any sort of meaningful number (aka, sim it) Originally Posted by DStrukt
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2016-09-20, 08:43 PM #57Mechagnome
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I don't like sims, I just wanted to illustrate my point. Yes, there are variables that affect the numbers which is why a 2-4% difference between an all-mastery build and one what includes versatility is irrelevant for the most part. Sims are mechanical. Originally Posted by Ssateneth
There's a lot of denial here since the trolls were intent on "proving" me wrong, but I used their same tool to show that my point was sound and that this is not a "right/wrong" issue, it's a PREFERENCE thing.
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I increased versatility until it was 77%, which was the default % for mastery. The point was to show that if you had a build where it was possible to have 0% mastery and 77% versatility instead (which we know it's not), versatility is easily better. We also know that we gain more % per point of mastery than we do versatility, so 10000 mastery is a higher % than 10000 versatility. Originally Posted by Zoopercat
Fundamentally, I want to show that there is a choice, and that a 2-4% DPS cut is a fairly small price to pay for added utility, especially if you like not getting ganked while doing world quests. I enjoy world pvp.But a better way to look at it is that batch report I linked, which professor, you pointed out that you could give up 2-4% DPS and get the other benefits from a little bit of vers. For some players that might be worth it. http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...d615c0378e21a9
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2016-09-20, 08:45 PM #58Titan
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The % for mastery is just what the tooltip shows, its not like crit or haste, its completely meaningless. They could have went with showing the windfury proc chance increase % instead, or the chance to proc stormbringer. You should redo your sims to have versatility match that figure.
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2016-09-20, 09:10 PM #59AskMrRobot's Human Minion
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Like J said, the % is just the tooltip. When it comes to gear, every item has a secondary stat budget. So an 840 chest piece can have 1,257 raw secondary stats on it. It could be all versatility or all mastery, or any mix, obviously, as we all know. Originally Posted by Professor Expert
So to do a fair comparison, you have to keep the secondary stats from gear the same, like my example showed. Not the percentages.Ask Mr. Robot Human Minion
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2016-09-20, 09:14 PM #60The Insane
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I'm reasonably sure at this point that he knows this. He's just trying to get a reaction out of us. Originally Posted by Zoopercat
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