Why Velen didn't want to kill Rakeesh? (Spoilers)

[Aucald]

Val'zuun is a good eredar in dalaran

I don't know if I would call him "good," but he's not affiliated with the Legion anymore which I guess is an improvement of some kind.

[Rhlor]

I don't know if I would call him "good," but he's not affiliated with the Legion anymore which I guess is an improvement of some kind.

Forsaken are "good"?

[Aucald]

Forsaken are "good"?

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything but to answer the question some of them are and some of them aren't - they're a free-willed intelligent group and run the gamut of essential moral alignments. You're also comparing a group of individuals against a specific individual, which usually doesn't make for a very sterling model of comparison in the first place.

[Rhlor]

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything but to answer the question some of them are and some of them aren't - they're a free-willed intelligent group and run the gamut of essential moral alignments. You're also comparing a group of individuals against a specific individual, which usually doesn't make for a very sterling model of comparison in the first place.

what I mean is that, in warcraft logic fight against the legion makes you "good".

illidan is a good person ?? or the Illidari ?? or DK??

[Spiffums]

He loses his "son" whom he's fought for years.......figures it out and the last moment and loses his shit over it and wimps out on fighting the burning legion.........some faction leader he is! Yes he lost his son but he had lost him 13,000 years ago.

[Aucald]

what I mean is that, in warcraft logic fight against the legion makes you "good".

illidan is a good person ?? or the Illidari ?? or DK??

I'm not sure I agree with that statement, no. The simplicity of the good/evil dichotomy aside, simply being pit against the Legion is not sufficient to make a person or a group "good." The Void Lords themselves could be seen as opposed to the Legion (at least they are insofar as Sargeras is concerned), but they are by no means "good" or a positive force. Illidan is by turns self-serving and self-involved, and he has an "ends justify the means" philosophy that could not be seen as generally "good" and yet he also had a sincere desire to protect Azeroth and a willingness to sacrifice himself (or others) to achieve that goal. The Illidari and the Ebon Blade are both morally complex groups - and as a group they are very difficult to pin down to a single moral absolute. Individuals might be easier to quantify, but that too depends on how you make such judgments.

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He loses his "son" whom he's fought for years.......figures it out and the last moment and loses his shit over it and wimps out on fighting the burning legion.........some faction leader he is! Yes he lost his son but he had lost him 13,000 years ago.

I'm not sure this is the take I got from that particular vignette. Velen lost his family in the flight from Argus, he presumed them dead by Kil'jaedin's hand and went through whatever grieving processes were appropriate (knowing him and the Draenei in general they were likely lengthy and difficult). Then, millennia into the future, he discovers his son is alive and has been twisted by the Legion into a monster. In the selfsame moment of discovering this, he also sees that his death is *required* by destiny/fate (as Velen had himself foreseen it) and that it is by the hands of the nascent Army of the Light that this death will be carried out.

That's going to be pretty devastating all in all, and I saw it as hardening him and making him (rather recklessly) desire to take the fight directly to Argus as opposed to remaining to help defend Azeroth.

[Rhlor]

I'm not sure I agree with that statement, no. The simplicity of the good/evil dichotomy aside, simply being pit against the Legion is not sufficient to make a person or a group "good." The Void Lords themselves could be seen as opposed to the Legion (at least they are insofar as Sargeras is concerned), but they are by no means "good" or a positive force. Illidan is by turns self-serving and self-involved, and he has an "ends justify the means" philosophy that could not be seen as generally "good" and yet he also had a sincere desire to protect Azeroth and a willingness to sacrifice himself (or others) to achieve that goal. The Illidari and the Ebon Blade are both morally complex groups - and as a group they are very difficult to pin down to a single moral absolute. Individuals might be easier to quantify, but that too depends on how you make such judgments.

I did not make that simplification was blizzard !! remember that Gromm is "good" only for fighting against the legion!! from that simplifications valzuun that helps fight against the legion it is good.

there is also a Illidari eredar

Illidari Lord Balthas



Eredar Twins working with warlocks


I think man'ari Eredar may be in the future sub race for draenei. I would like to Rakeesh became the leader of the "good" eredar

[Aeluron Lightsong]

That's just demons deciding not being with the Legion, not some example of having a sub race. Again, Eredar are just the version of the Draenei before the Argus incident. Technically all Draenei are Eredar so...yeah your point is moot.

[Rhlor]

That's just demons deciding not being with the Legion, not some example of having a sub race. Again, Eredar are just the version of the Draenei before the Argus incident. Technically all Draenei are Eredar so...yeah your point is moot.

draenei are not Man`ari eredar

[Seifross]

He loses his "son" whom he's fought for years.......figures it out and the last moment and loses his shit over it and wimps out on fighting the burning legion.........some faction leader he is! Yes he lost his son but he had lost him 13,000 years ago.

This is pretty far off base.

He thinks his son died, but discovers that he's been twisted into a demon and has been doing horrible things for 13,000 years. They're totally different.

Then he decides to take the fight directly to the Legion, which is the exact opposite of "wimping out on the fighting". Remember that the Draenei's "home" is Argus, which is where the Burning Legion are established. "We're going home" means "we're going back to Argus".

[Spiffums]

I'm not sure I agree with that statement, no. The simplicity of the good/evil dichotomy aside, simply being pit against the Legion is not sufficient to make a person or a group "good." The Void Lords themselves could be seen as opposed to the Legion (at least they are insofar as Sargeras is concerned), but they are by no means "good" or a positive force. Illidan is by turns self-serving and self-involved, and he has an "ends justify the means" philosophy that could not be seen as generally "good" and yet he also had a sincere desire to protect Azeroth and a willingness to sacrifice himself (or others) to achieve that goal. The Illidari and the Ebon Blade are both morally complex groups - and as a group they are very difficult to pin down to a single moral absolute. Individuals might be easier to quantify, but that too depends on how you make such judgments.

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I'm not sure this is the take I got from that particular vignette. Velen lost his family in the flight from Argus, he presumed them dead by Kil'jaedin's hand and went through whatever grieving processes were appropriate (knowing him and the Draenei in general they were likely lengthy and difficult). Then, millennia into the future, he discovers his son is alive and has been twisted by the Legion into a monster. In the selfsame moment of discovering this, he also sees that his death is *required* by destiny/fate (as Velen had himself foreseen it) and that it is by the hands of the nascent Army of the Light that this death will be carried out.

That's going to be pretty devastating all in all, and I saw it as hardening him and making him (rather recklessly) desire to take the fight directly to Argus as opposed to remaining to help defend Azeroth.

Yeah right after he had about killed him. He gave up and quit against the Legion. Tell him the Light died here today.......so he would doom EVERYTHING just because 20% before we kill the bad he realizes it was his long long long long long long lost son. It was poor writing is what it was.

[TriHard]

No, he said the light died this day because Rakeesh destroyed the last remnant of the prime naaru. I am pretty sure he didn' t say that because his son was killed.

[Combatbutler]

This is pretty far off base.

He thinks his son died, but discovers that he's been twisted into a demon and has been doing horrible things for 13,000 years. They're totally different.

Then he decides to take the fight directly to the Legion, which is the exact opposite of "wimping out on the fighting". Remember that the Draenei's "home" is Argus, which is where the Burning Legion are established. "We're going home" means "we're going back to Argus".

Yeah after he tries to attack us, in order to save his son, who is in the process to slaughter what remains of his people on Azeroth and has helped eradicate thousands of worlds, but that doesn't matter anymore because he is his son. In that moment we saw a glimpse of Velen's true face, someone who is willing to see worlds burn to save someone who is most precious to him.

[Aucald]

Yeah after he tries to attack us, in order to save his son, who is in the process to slaughter what remains of his people on Azeroth and has helped eradicate thousands of worlds, but that doesn't matter anymore because he is his son. In that moment we saw a glimpse of Velen's true face, someone who is willing to see worlds burn to save someone who is most precious to him.

There are several characters who would, or have, made that choice in the Warcraft universe in some way or another. Perhaps Velen thought he could talk reason to and possibly redeem his son? I am sure it was deeply and emotionally troubling and Velen wouldn't be thinking exactly clearly in the heat of the moment.

[Cannibalus]

there are no none-demon man'ari-eredar.

I mean he's even red, which is like level 2 of fel corruption after turning green. Rite?

[Combatbutler]

There are several characters who would, or have, made that choice in the Warcraft universe in some way or another. Perhaps Velen thought he could talk reason to and possibly redeem his son? I am sure it was deeply and emotionally troubling and Velen wouldn't be thinking exactly clearly in the heat of the moment.

I love this moment, because this shows a much darker side of Velen and finally scratches at this perfect little image we had of him. Whether he thought he could redeem him is beside the point, his son simply did not deserve redemption he is most likely responsible for more death and destruction, than the old gods on Azeroth, the lich king and deathwing combined.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I love this moment, because this shows a much darker side of Velen and finally scratches at this perfect little image we had of him. Whether he thought he could redeem him is beside the point, his son simply did not deserve redemption he is most likely responsible for more death and destruction, than the old gods on Azeroth, the lich king and deathwing combined.

It was his son, most people that Velen went through would feel pretty similar. Pretty obvious he's not thinking clearly.

[Combatbutler]

It was his son, most people that Velen went through would feel pretty similar. Pretty obvious he's not thinking clearly.

Considering what his people are like, take for example Shattrath, even children volunteering to die, because it had to look realistic so that the orcs would believe they got them all. He seemed rather foolish in comparison. It was his son and? His people lost again and again sons daughters etc and they kept going, but Velen on a whim of judgement is willing to send them and all their sacrifices to hell as soon as his own flesh and blood is involved, who by all means had more blood on his hands than the greatest evils on Azeroth.

Draenei are defined by their choice of sacrifice and in that one moment of weakness Velen spat on it all, which makes him more relatable, but also means he is nowhere near perfect.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Considering what his people are like, take for example Shattrath, even children volunteering to die, because it had to look realistic so that the orcs would believe they got them all. He seemed rather foolish in comparison. It was his son and? His people lost again and again sons daughters etc and they kept going, but Velen on a whim of judgement is willing to send them and all their sacrifices to hell as soon as his own flesh and blood is involved, who by all means had more blood on his hands than the greatest evils on Azeroth.

Not really, he's just as vulnerable as the rest of us. It's not some big darker version of Velen. When it's one's son it's very person and a much different feeling.

[Combatbutler]

Not really, he's just as vulnerable as the rest of us. It's not some big darker version of Velen. When it's one's son it's very person and a much different feeling.

Even if it means undoing all they ever achieved, all the planets that burned in their place, so that they could resist the legion someday in the future, just so Velen has the meager, pretty much nonexistent chance to save a single life, who has snuffed out entire worlds? It is understandable that he wants to save his son, but considering the entire context, his choice was pretty much the worst he could make at the time and extremely selfish.

What I had expected was a grief-stricken Velen saying something like" I am so sorry child, but you leave me no choice" and then proceeds killing him, not turning on us and endangering his people and Azeroth.