Tankier Caster vs. Mobile Caster

[Draxtor]

I think you are also forgetting something here. Not just how our "tankiness" affects us, but how it affects our healers. Us being able to soak even unavoidable mechanics helps mitigate the amount of time healers are spending on us with spot heals and allows them to focus on others who are making mistakes or taking more damage.

This game is called an MMO as well. Not all mechanics in the class is designed only to benefit you.

I understand that, but like I said previously unavoidable mechanics are very rarely the issue. Very rarely does a group wipe because their healers can't keep up with unavoidable damage.

I think Ele shaman talents are perfect. A totem to increase group speed, a short jump, or a very mediocre hybrid CD. Allows them to reposition quickly without being overly mobile.

[Renal923]

I understand that, but like I said previously unavoidable mechanics are very rarely the issue. Very rarely does a group wipe because their healers can't keep up with unavoidable damage.

I think Ele shaman talents are perfect. A totem to increase group speed, a short jump, or a very mediocre hybrid CD. Allows them to reposition quickly without being overly mobile.

I think you might have missed part of my message. It frees the healers up more to help when people make mistakes with the avoidable mechanics. However I wouldn't say no to SOMETHING more in the talent tree. I haven't tried burning rush because it feels pretty mediocre to me.

However, I think everyone talking about the mobility is a bit overblown.

[tithian]

I think you are also forgetting something here. Not just how our "tankiness" affects us, but how it affects our healers. Us being able to soak even unavoidable mechanics helps mitigate the amount of time healers are spending on us with spot heals and allows them to focus on others who are making mistakes or taking more damage.

This game is called an MMO as well. Not all mechanics in the class is designed only to benefit you.

I'm calling bullshit on this one. When raid wide unavoidable damage happens, healers aren't spot healing. They are popping raid cooldowns and/or AoE, and no matter if you took 100k or 90k damage per tick, you are getting healed to full. What tankyness accomplishes in those cases is to produce overhealing. And if it comes down to that extra layer of absorption saving you, chances are the more squishy people are dead already and a wipe is called.

People are spot healed when they don't sidestep that ground AoE, because they can tank it or can't be arsed, or don't want to stop casting. Sure you took less damage from your fail, but your healers will get snarky. In the end in a raid environment mobility is always best, especially since the lack of your mobility can kill other people easily. Why do you think people loved Demonic Leap in 6.1? And the irony was that in early-mid WoD locks were even more tanky than anything they have now.

[wholol]

I think the people dissatisfied with current lock level mobility are comparing locks too much to mages, if said people really want to play a mobile caster that much wouldn't mage be a better choice to main instead of trying to prove points why locks should be closer to the mage archetype ?

[Renal923]

I think the people dissatisfied with current lock level mobility are comparing locks too much to mages, if said people really want to play a mobile caster that much wouldn't mage be a better choice to main instead of trying to prove points why locks should be closer to the mage archetype ?

I agree with this.

I don't think mobility is our problem. Learning how to use the limited mobility, especially compared to before, and then low numbers (which is a tuning issue) are what people are upset about, as a general leymans terms. I'm sure there are more, but these seem to be the two most common complaints.

[Lucrece]

I agree Monks and DH are overtuned currently, but you can still get away from them via roots just as any melee, and it's at that point where the ranged advantage comes in. A ranged can still be doing their damage in a root, a melee can't.

They definitely need looking into though, but DH is a weird one. If you can avoid their attacks in Meta (Kite, CC, Evasion, Parry, Block etc), and CC their Blur, they just die. They literally have no defensives or heals. I probably have this a bit easier than most classes though being a Rogue. Just Evasion/Blind their Meta, stun through Blur, free kill.


Windwalkers I can agree with, but Rogues don't really have the mobility when not actually on a target already. If they are close to you, they are on you, but if you get out of their 15y Shadowstrike range then you can stay away from them, it's basically the same as WW Monk's Rushing Tigerpalm PvP talent but it's 5y extra vs a slow. If they aren't Sub then you can just waddle away.

Like I said though, tuning definitely needs looking at if mobility stays this high.

Everything is a free kill to rogues. They're virtually the only melee class who emerged with defensives mostly untouched.

It boggles the mind that windwalker saw diffuse magic, a goddamn talent for 90% magic mitigation that doesn't grant immunity, with the same cd as Clos (baseline skill) nerfed down to 60%.

Windwalker also has to talent for essentially an inferior version of Crimson Vial in healing elixirs. And Feint, which is just retarded.

Meanwhile you get classes with vanish, blind, increased dodge/parry rate cd's, complete magic immunity and debuff removal, and a 30% heal on a 30 sec cd. Classes like shaman just get a 1.5 min cd for a 40% damage reduction.

[Jessicka]

I agree with this.

I don't think mobility is our problem. Learning how to use the limited mobility, especially compared to before, and then low numbers (which is a tuning issue) are what people are upset about, as a general leymans terms. I'm sure there are more, but these seem to be the two most common complaints.

I'm seeing people complaining as much, if not more about the horrendously slow ramp up, and inability to switch targets with 2 of our specs. Mobility for Affliction really is a none issue, you have 1 short hard-cast and a channel filler; rest is entirely instants, and you can spec into Mana Tap for more if you want even more mobility. You can pretty much spend half your time running around. Problem here is that the damage is poor unless you have adds to feed your Artifact traits; which is just yet more ramp up - on condition.

I'm playing Mage just as much at the moment as Warlock, and with RoP and big damage tied to hard casts now (for Frost and Arcane) your mobility there does take a hit; you have various instant procs as Frost, and of course Ice Floes, but Ice Floes doesn't take your RoP with you and you should be stood on that for your big casts - you need to root every 40s or so. The real difference is bursting and switching, you can just go ahead and do it on Mage without too much ramp up, and without having to rebuild when you go back; it's a massive improvement in QoL and gameplay.

[Soisoisoi]

Everything is a free kill to rogues. They're virtually the only melee class who emerged with defensives mostly untouched.

It boggles the mind that windwalker saw diffuse magic, a goddamn talent for 90% magic mitigation that doesn't grant immunity, with the same cd as Clos (baseline skill) nerfed down to 60%.

Windwalker also has to talent for essentially an inferior version of Crimson Vial in healing elixirs. And Feint, which is just retarded.

Meanwhile you get classes with vanish, blind, increased dodge/parry rate cd's, complete magic immunity and debuff removal, and a 30% heal on a 30 sec cd. Classes like shaman just get a 1.5 min cd for a 40% damage reduction.

I'm not saying Rogue doesn't have a lot, but you can't go around listing all of one classes utility/cooldowns and listing ONE for another to compare them. On the point of healing though since you specified that:

Contrary to what you said, Windwalker has a BETTER version of Crimson Vial. Crimson Vial is 15% over 6 seconds, with a 30 sec CD. Healing Elixir is 15% instantly, has two charges so you can bank them, and it auto activates if you drop below 35%, which is great when you're dying in a stun.

WW also has Transcendance to heal them for 20%/6s, and Karma also heals you for the damage taken (aka 50% shield and 50% heal, full heal effectively). On top of that, their L15 talent and Effuse. It's not great, but it's healing when you get away or are able to CC a target on you.

Rogue, if Sub, has Soothing Darkness, which is 1% HP/sec, for the duration of Stealth or Shadow Dance. They also have to use it to deal damage, peel, CC, etc. so it is not always available for healing, in which would be 9% per charge. Don't forget that Feint is not useful (other than AoE) with this talent either. So Rogues are also talenting for this or Feint, too, just as WW has to talent for the HE vs CloS.

Every class has their pros and cons. For example, Frost Mages can literally just two shot people with Frost Bolt in arena currently.

[Lucrece]

I'm not saying Rogue doesn't have a lot, but you can't go around listing all of one classes utility/cooldowns and listing ONE for another to compare them. On the point of healing though since you specified that:

Contrary to what you said, Windwalker has a BETTER version of Crimson Vial. Crimson Vial is 15% over 6 seconds, with a 30 sec CD. Healing Elixir is 15% instantly, has two charges so you can bank them, and it auto activates if you drop below 35%, which is great when you're dying in a stun.

WW also has Transcendance to heal them for 20%/6s, and Karma also heals you for the damage taken (aka 50% shield and 50% heal, full heal effectively). On top of that, their L15 talent and Effuse. It's not great, but it's healing when you get away or are able to CC a target on you.

Rogue, if Sub, has Soothing Darkness, which is 1% HP/sec, for the duration of Stealth or Shadow Dance. They also have to use it to deal damage, peel, CC, etc. so it is not always available for healing, in which would be 9% per charge. Don't forget that Feint is not useful (other than AoE) with this talent either. So Rogues are also talenting for this or Feint, too, just as WW has to talent for the HE vs CloS.

Every class has their pros and cons. For example, Frost Mages can literally just two shot people with Frost Bolt in arena currently.

Crimson Vial is 30%, not 15%. Transcendence requires you waste your teleport to benefit from a heal, so it's not free either much like Soothing Darkness (which thanks to the uptime of shadowdance for sub and subterfuge allows to about 66% health recovery every 30 seconds).

Touch of Karma doesn't heal you for anything if the target doesn't hit you, and if it's a rogue or mage they can just clean the Karma debuff off and waste your single defensive.

[corebit]

I'm calling bullshit on this one. When raid wide unavoidable damage happens, healers aren't spot healing. They are popping raid cooldowns and/or AoE, and no matter if you took 100k or 90k damage per tick, you are getting healed to full. What tankyness accomplishes in those cases is to produce overhealing. And if it comes down to that extra layer of absorption saving you, chances are the more squishy people are dead already and a wipe is called.

People are spot healed when they don't sidestep that ground AoE, because they can tank it or can't be arsed, or don't want to stop casting. Sure you took less damage from your fail, but your healers will get snarky. In the end in a raid environment mobility is always best, especially since the lack of your mobility can kill other people easily. Why do you think people loved Demonic Leap in 6.1? And the irony was that in early-mid WoD locks were even more tanky than anything they have now.

This guy gets it. Mobility is KING in raid encounters, tankyness is not.

No one gives a shit if you absorb a bit more damage than the next guy, you will still get 1-shot for boss mechanics that actually matter.

[Soisoisoi]

Crimson Vial is 30%, not 15%. Transcendence requires you waste your teleport to benefit from a heal, so it's not free either much like Soothing Darkness (which thanks to the uptime of shadowdance for sub and subterfuge allows to about 66% health recovery every 30 seconds).

Touch of Karma doesn't heal you for anything if the target doesn't hit you, and if it's a rogue or mage they can just clean the Karma debuff off and waste your single defensive.

Crimson Vial is 15%, and Soothing Darkness is 1%/s in PvP combat. If you're not going to do your own research before complaining at least read what I have written.

Shadowdance lasts 3 seconds (+2s Subterfuge, +3s Phantom Assassin [PvP only]: 8s). We get 3 charges, each with a 1minute recharge. If you waste 3 in a row, you're waiting 3minutes until you have 3 again. FWIW, in PvE @840 (minus Phantom Assassin) it's ~37% up-time in PERFECT conditions. Considering, like I said, it's used for CC/Peeling/Damage and not just healing, you don't get anywhere near 66% hp/30s.

If a Rogue wants to go all out with their heals, they get a total of 39% HP over the duration of 24 seconds. That's using Crimson Vial AND 3 Shadow Dances. They then have to wait 3 minutes to do that again, minus 3s/cp on SD cooldown. They also have no damage/Peels/whatever from Shadow Dance again until that is back up.

Regarding Karma, you're saying you waste your defensive because they can CloS/Block it - Well guess what you just did, you wasted their defensive, and now you can kill them. With that said, if you Karma a Rogue or Mage when they have their defensive up then you're just being daft anyway, and that's on you. Karma a target who isn't going to get rid of it, a Mage's pet, the healer, the other DPS.

You're right that Transcendence isn't "free" - and if you're comparing apples to apples like you said a Rogue can heal from Dance, it's still there. It's also far more likely to be used in an escape situation as well considering you want to create distance/LoS.

[Deleted]

If they want us to be immobile tanky casters, That's absolutely fine as long as we are compensated by having very high static single target dps for when we can plant our feet. We should be a good chunk above extremely mobile ranged on a patchwork fight, likewise for them on a very mobile fight. Around equal on fights with some movment

That said talents are supposed to give us choice, for raiding I personally prefer more mobility.

Put soul leech and dark pact on a row with something like ability - instant cast - makes you next 2 or 3 incinerates castable while moving - 30 or 45 second cd

That way you can choose to stand in fire and cast or move out of the fire whilst casting. Can either be tanky or mobile whichever you prefer

[corebit]

That way you can choose to stand in fire and cast or move out of the fire whilst casting. Can either be tanky or mobile whichever you prefer

There is no such thing as "standing in the fire" especially in Mythic difficulty where you either get 1-shot or get an absurd stacking debuff that will kill you seconds later anyway. A paltry absorb shield isn't going to do jack shit. You'll be moving and dodging like the rest of the ranged DPS in your raid. Meanwhile your DPS suffers from all that movement and you're left wondering at the absurd idea of the "tanky caster"

[sugarfree]

The whole "tanky caster" pitch they are talking right now is a lie. Other than Demo, the other 2 specs are neither tanks. We have it better than other casters, but not that much.

The reason I don't believe "tanky casters" exist it's because there are really no mobile casters in the first place. It is only really Fire Mages that's somewhat mobile, the rest are ALL IMMOBILE BUT NO TANKY ABILITIES.

Mail armor for Elemental Shaman is pointless. Might as well give them cloth, because it doesn't make a difference.

They don't design mobile casters, they all designed them as immobile, while making all melee mobile with ridiculous uptime.