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  1. #1
    I am Murloc! shadowmouse's Avatar
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    Alpha or just psycho?

    There seems to be an enduring appeal to the idea of an "Alpha" for some people, even though it is based on flawed research:

    Outmoded notion of the alpha wolf

    The concept of the alpha wolf is well ingrained in the popular wolf literature at least partly because of my book "The Wolf: Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species," written in 1968, published in 1970, republished in paperback in 1981, and currently still in print, despite my numerous pleas to the publisher to stop publishing it. Although most of the book's info is still accurate, much is outdated. We have learned more about wolves in the last 40 years then in all of previous history.

    One of the outdated pieces of information is the concept of the alpha wolf. "Alpha" implies competing with others and becoming top dog by winning a contest or battle. However, most wolves who lead packs achieved their position simply by mating and producing pups, which then became their pack. In other words they are merely breeders, or parents, and that's all we call them today, the "breeding male," "breeding female," or "male parent," "female parent," or the "adult male" or "adult female." In the rare packs that include more than one breeding animal, the "dominant breeder" can be called that, and any breeding daughter can be called a "subordinate breeder."
    Source: http://www.davemech.org/news.html

    On the other hand, it is possible to point to people in areas that are seen as successful -- heads of businesses, successful politicians and similarly high profile groups -- and they seem to fit the idea of an Alpha because they are charismatic, successful, they have influence and power, and they are often held up as models. Who are they if "Alpha" is a flawed concept?

    One possible answer is perhaps cause for concern. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-the-boardroom

    In their book, Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go To Work, Paul Babiak and Robert Hare, argue while psychopaths may not be ideally suited for traditional work environments by virtue of a lack of desire to develop good interpersonal relationships, they have other abilities such as reading people and masterful influence and persuasion skills that can make them difficult to be seen as the psychopaths they are. According to their and others’ studies somewhere between 3-25% of executives could be assessed as psychopaths, a much higher figure than the general population figure of 1%.

    Robert Hare’s Psychopathology Checklist suggests psychopathy as found in organizations has the following characteristics:

    Social deviance and anti-social behavior (such as irresponsibility, impulsivity, unstable relationships, poor behavioral control, need for stimulation/rewards, promiscuous sexual behavior, criminal versatility and parasitic lifestyle);

    Aggressive narcissism (superficial charm, grandiose sense of self worth, pathological lying, cunning/manipulative, lack of remorse or guilt, emotionally shallow, lack of empathy, failure to accept personal responsibility for own actions).
    Further along, the article observes:

    Psychopaths are attracted to and probably overrepresented in occupations such as politics, entertainment and business, the legal profession and law enforcement, the military and medicine. Inside the business world, traits such as ruthlessness, a lack of conscience and success at any cost would be seen as pathological outside of business. Many of the qualities that indicate mental problems in other contexts may appear appropriate in senior executive positions. That is particularly the case in organizations that appreciate impression management, corporate gamesmanship, risk-taking, coolness under pressure, domination, assertiveness and extreme competitiveness.

    Part of the reason why an increasing number of psychopaths have been drawn into leadership positions in the corporate world is its shift to “short termism.” Organizations and indeed entire countries have increasingly focused on shorter-term results for shareholders/stakeholders, and a utilitarian view of doing whatever it takes to get succeed, no matter the cost to people and the environment.
    There is even a question about whether the way we train young business leaders contributes to this problem:

    Amanda Gudmundsson and Gregory Southey, writing in the Journal of Social and Behavioral Research in Business contend that business schools may be compounding the problem of corporate psychopaths by the focus in business school curricula. A study of business school students show that they, as future leaders, value empathy least, are more self-interested, demonstrate more cheating behavior, are less co-operative, more likely to conceal mistakes and are less willing to yield and more likely to defect in negotiation.
    Just to throw another log on the fire: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc...947814/?no-ist

    Eventually, based on further neurological and behavioral research into psychopathy, he decided he was indeed a psychopath—just a relatively good kind, what he and others call a “pro-social psychopath,” someone who has difficulty feeling true empathy for others but still keeps his behavior roughly within socially-acceptable bounds.

    It wasn’t entirely a shock to Fallon, as he’d always been aware that he was someone especially motivated by power and manipulating others, he says. Additionally, his family line included seven alleged murderers, including Lizzie Borden, infamously accused of killing her father and stepmother in 1892.

    But the fact that a person with the genes and brain of a psychopath could end up a non-violent, stable and successful scientist made Fallon reconsider the ambiguity of the term. Psychopathy, after all, doesn’t appear as a formal diagnosis in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders in part because it encompasses such a wide range of symptoms. Not all psychopaths kill; some, like Fallon, exhibit other sorts of psychopathic behavior.

    “I’m obnoxiously competitive. I won’t let my grandchildren win games. I’m kind of an asshole, and I do jerky things that piss people off,” he says. “But while I’m aggressive, but my aggression is sublimated. I’d rather beat someone in an argument than beat them up.”
    Does that last bit ring any bells?
    With COVID-19 making its impact on our lives, I have decided that I shall hang in there for my remaining days, skip some meals, try to get children to experiment with making henna patterns on their skin, and plant some trees. You know -- live, fast, dye young, and leave a pretty copse. I feel like I may not have that quite right.

  2. #2
    The Unstoppable Force THE Bigzoman's Avatar
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    There's certain types of leadership that are more desirable than others in certain situations. In some situations, you many want an emotional charismatic leader. In others, you may want a strategist.

    When I think "Alpha" I think of someone at the top of leadership. Can't say I ever thought it also meant top-dog with X leadership characteristics.

  3. #3
    there's no such thing as an alpha and there never will be. the only reason you listen to your boss is because they will fire you if you don't, and you need money to live. if you listen to anyone because they feel "alpha" to you, you're a pathetic loser.

  4. #4
    I don't really think of "alpha" "beta" etc being anything that is based on scientific research. And that's even accounting for the soft science-y ways of some branches of psychology, even the Big 5 traits don't have much empirical support as their prevalence varies due to cultural factors. Although they've managed to worm their way into personality disorder diagnostic criteria in the DSM-5.

    It's just internet speak, along with "bro" "cuck" etc.

    I made a thread about alpha/beta/etc awhile ago, but it was mostly due to curiosity regarding OT posters' beliefs on my end.

  5. #5
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    I don't really think of "alpha" "beta" etc being anything that is based on scientific research. And that's even accounting for the soft science-y ways of some branches of psychology, even the Big 5 traits don't have much empirical support as their prevalence varies due to cultural factors. Although they've managed to worm their way into personality disorder diagnostic criteria in the DSM-5.

    It's just internet speak, along with "bro" "cuck" etc.

    I made a thread about alpha/beta/etc awhile ago, but it was mostly due to curiosity regarding OT posters' beliefs on my end.
    we all know draenei are gigantic betas. sin'dorei are definitely alpha's. we dominate the draenei.
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  6. #6
    The Unstoppable Force May90's Avatar
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    I think that much was obvious from the start... A pack which is led not by a wolf who is experienced and knowledgeable, but by a wolf who just fights better than other wolves, isn't going to survive in the wilds for long.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Candy View Post
    I can't explain it because I'm an idiot, and I have to live with that post for the rest of my life. Better to just smile and back away slowly. Ignore it so that it can go away.
    Thanks for the avatar goes to Carbot Animations and Sy.

  7. #7


    How is this not alpha?
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

    -- Capt. Copeland

  8. #8
    The Insane Underverse's Avatar
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    I think the concept of 'alpha' as a leader, as someone who has a lot of resources, as a provider is useful and applicable. But this 'bro version' of alpha being peddled about the internet is little more than an excuse to disregard and disrespect others. My own brother has become an acolyte of the latter, and it disgusts me.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    we all know draenei are gigantic betas. sin'dorei are definitely alpha's. we dominate the draenei.
    How can a mouse dominate a lion?

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Violent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    I don't really think of "alpha" "beta" etc being anything that is based on scientific research. And that's even accounting for the soft science-y ways of some branches of psychology, even the Big 5 traits don't have much empirical support as their prevalence varies due to cultural factors. Although they've managed to worm their way into personality disorder diagnostic criteria in the DSM-5.

    It's just internet speak, along with "bro" "cuck" etc.

    I made a thread about alpha/beta/etc awhile ago, but it was mostly due to curiosity regarding OT posters' beliefs on my end.
    The term "Alpha" referring to a person though, has been around a lot longer than the internet has been.
    <~$~("The truth, is limitless in its range. If you drop a 'T' and look at it in reverse, it could hurt.")~$~> L.F.

    <~$~("The most hopelessly stupid man is he who is not aware he is wise.")~$~> I.A.

  11. #11
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    How can a mouse dominate a lion?
    i know how could you possibly dominate me? if anything i would dominate you.
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  12. #12
    The Lightbringer Violent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    How can a mouse dominate a lion?
    You've never heard of the story about the Lion and the Mouse that pulled a sliver from his paw?

    That = Power. Power = Dominance. Dominance = You lose. You lose = Show me your tits.
    <~$~("The truth, is limitless in its range. If you drop a 'T' and look at it in reverse, it could hurt.")~$~> L.F.

    <~$~("The most hopelessly stupid man is he who is not aware he is wise.")~$~> I.A.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    i know how could you possibly dominate me? if anything i would dominate you.
    This conversation became very weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Violent View Post
    You've never heard of the story about the Lion and the Mouse that pulled a sliver from his paw?

    That = Power. Power = Dominance. Dominance = You lose. You lose = Show me your tits.
    That is not about dominance as much as cunning or benevolence, though. You're silly, lol.

  14. #14
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    Alpha is in current times stand for "not educated".

  15. #15
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    This conversation became very weird.


    That is not about dominance as much as cunning or benevolence, though. You're silly, lol.
    what conversation? there is no debate blood elf>draenei. we dominate.
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  16. #16
    The Unstoppable Force THE Bigzoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    This conversation became very weird.


    That is not about dominance as much as cunning or benevolence, though. You're silly, lol.
    TO be fair, you lost me at the mouse and the lion analogy.

  17. #17
    I am Murloc! shadowmouse's Avatar
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    As a mild redirect, Alpha is something that gets discussion, but what do y'all think about the research that shows there be psychos among us and they're steering the ship? To some extent that goes to the point about what business schools emphasize -- talk of Alphas and Type A sugar coated the point that Larry over in HR really may be an outright SOB (see article for explanation).
    With COVID-19 making its impact on our lives, I have decided that I shall hang in there for my remaining days, skip some meals, try to get children to experiment with making henna patterns on their skin, and plant some trees. You know -- live, fast, dye young, and leave a pretty copse. I feel like I may not have that quite right.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by The BANNzoman View Post
    TO be fair, you lost me at the mouse and the lion analogy.
    I can't come up with zippy one-liners every time Bread talks shit about Draenei, he does it in every thread.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    As a mild redirect, Alpha is something that gets discussion, but what do y'all think about the research that shows there be psychos among us and they're steering the ship? To some extent that goes to the point about what business schools emphasize -- talk of Alphas and Type A sugar coated the point that Larry over in HR really may be an outright SOB (see article for explanation).
    I don't think "alphas" = "sociopaths" for the most part, although the definition of "alpha" varies a lot in common usage. American business schools vary a lot in quality, the shitty ones focus on buzzwords and groupthink. CEOs are revered as celebrities.

    Corporations in general are a bit sociopathic, there was a documentary called The Corporation that was based around that analogy, although it was a bit heavy handed.

    In regards to who gets ahead...

    http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/a...ho-gets-ahead/

    "Putting other people first, [givers] often put themselves at risk for burning out or being exploited by takers. A lot of people look at that and say, “Well, it’s hard for a taker to rise consistently to the top, because oftentimes, takers burn bridges. So, it must be the matchers who are more generous than takers, but also protect their own interests.” When I looked at the data, I was really surprised to see that those answers were wrong. It’s actually the givers again. Givers are overrepresented at the top as well as the bottom of most success metrics."

  19. #19
    The Unstoppable Force THE Bigzoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    As a mild redirect, Alpha is something that gets discussion, but what do y'all think about the research that shows there be psychos among us and they're steering the ship? To some extent that goes to the point about what business schools emphasize -- talk of Alphas and Type A sugar coated the point that Larry over in HR really may be an outright SOB (see article for explanation).
    I addressed it.

    There are different types of leadership styles everywhere you look. I haven't seen the clear defining characteristics in every single company, team, or group.

    Hell, i'm a fan of a quarterack that has so little chrasima that he couldn't motivate me to make a ham sandwich. His sheer knowledge and strategy through on-the-spot adjustments make him the type of QB that players can only dream of playing with.


    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...7372&FORM=VIRE

  20. #20
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    I can't come up with zippy one-liners every time Bread talks shit about Draenei, he does it in every thread.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I don't think "alphas" = "sociopaths" for the most part, although the definition of "alpha" varies a lot in common usage. American business schools vary a lot in quality, the shitty ones focus on buzzwords and groupthink. CEOs are revered as celebrities.

    Corporations in general are a bit sociopathic, there was a documentary called The Corporation that was based around that analogy, although it was a bit heavy handed.

    In regards to who gets ahead...

    http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/a...ho-gets-ahead/

    "Putting other people first, [givers] often put themselves at risk for burning out or being exploited by takers. A lot of people look at that and say, “Well, it’s hard for a taker to rise consistently to the top, because oftentimes, takers burn bridges. So, it must be the matchers who are more generous than takers, but also protect their own interests.” When I looked at the data, I was really surprised to see that those answers were wrong. It’s actually the givers again. Givers are overrepresented at the top as well as the bottom of most success metrics."
    if you want i can start talking about how much i hate pedophiles.
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

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