Day1 of raid - "know the fights" required

[Chrno]

I feel you OP. But it's just a result of the way Blizz does open PTR raid testing.
Right now you're simply letting others down if you go in not knowing anything.

That said ... most people in my heroic guild (WoD) couldn't be arsed haha.
But there are always like 5 people that know how the fight is supposed to be played.

[Pull My Finger]

Blizzard made the choice to publically test fights before they go live and publish the dungeon journal.

You're actively letting down your guild mates in a competitive activity if you don't at least look at the dungeon journal.

Oh wow. This response is not only wrong, it's also so stupidly dramatic and borderline condescending. "Letting your guild mates down", holy guilt trip, Batman. A "competitive activity"? LOL how? It's PvE. Or has raiding already degenerated to being all about killing something faster than some other group of shmucks you choose to measure yourself against?

[thilicen]

You can get most of the knowledge you need about a fight from the in-game journal. Detailed descriptions of the abilities and what can be interrupted, general tasks for healers, dps etc. If you can't figure out where to go from there I suggest you have a go at Minecraft.

[cFortyfive]

Oh I don't deny that. The ego comes in condemning him as the problem.

Well once you expect those who don't want to waste their time unprepared to accept your very specific preferences to take priority over theirs he kinda becomes the problem in multiplayer games. I doubt anyone reasonable would genuinely care if that happened in a group of like minded players which certainly exist.
I see the issues but sadly gaming things these day happens to be a lot more result oriented like essentially the rest of the world.

[Ragedaug]

The problem with your point of view is you are assuming that all progression raiders are how you described them, patient with wiping so long as it isn't due to stupid stuff. The reality is that players are humans with widely varying levels of patience. Why do you think you get raid leaders who start the kick train after wiping 2-3 times on a fight in a pug even when a strat mostly went according to plan until that wipe or particular phase?

These aren't progressing raiders. "kick trains" happen in PuGs. PuGs are looking for quick loot from farm runs. No one on farm runs expects wipes, because people farming content have already mastered that content. If YOU haven't mastered that content, then those who have will have less incentive to invite you as you don't align with their current goals - farming content. YOU should be looking for a lower level group if you haven't mastered the content. That group will be on par with you and will expect to wipe. If you are looking to join farming runs as someone who hasn't mastered the content, then you are simply being lazy and looking for a carry.

[Eurhetemec]

Well once you expect those who don't want to waste their time unprepared to accept your very specific preferences to take priority over theirs he kinda becomes the problem in multiplayer games. I doubt anyone reasonable would genuinely care if that happened in a group of like minded players which certainly exist.

Bolded bit may be the issue lol. But I dunno, I just miss the world where explaining an encounter was a raid-leader's job and skill, and somehow it always felt more natural and left more stuff open to surprise and fun than watching some tedious shrieking nerd's video on how to do it.

My old guild did that all through Cata (including Heroic stuff, though I quit before DS), and we seemed to do fine.

I see the issues but sadly gaming things these day happens to be a lot more result oriented like essentially the rest of the world.

I dunno man, the 20-30-something culture I see out in the world is journey/experience-oriented. All these new restaurants, weird shops and so on aren't about delivering what you want NOW NOW NOW, they're about giving you a more rounded thing.

If you are looking to join farming runs as someone who hasn't mastered the content, then you are simply being lazy and looking for a carry.

No-one who didn't play in the beta has "mastered the content" at this stage, though.

[Ragedaug]

This is an MMO. When the culture which simply wants to check boxes, walk in, win by mindlessly following a guide and walk out with loot (whilst complaining about a "lack of content" very often!) is dominant, and I argue that it is, it's very hard to find anyone willing to play any other way. That's how it very directly impacts me - because group content requires others to play, and finding enough like-minded people to enjoy anything other than pre-ordained victories (and endless whinging if they aren't victories) has become harder and harder over WoW's lifetime.

I agree that my claim is dramatic, but I do feel it's true. I just can't find those middle-ground people who were once everywhere in WoW - the people who want to play well, but were willing to learn and explore. They've been wiped out by YouTube, checkboxing and so on.

So this is an MMO, and the millions who don't care for your ideals of the MMO or RP'ing, should just GTFO? The title of the genre, not how people choose to play the game, should dictate how the game is played...and anyone who doesn't enjoy playing the game according to the genre title and your ideals is wrong.

hmm....

[Glaziola]

My guild always required its members to watch youtube videos of the first couple of bosses in the new raid, nothing new.

[Eurhetemec]

So this is an MMO, and the millions who don't care for your ideals of the MMO or RP'ing, should just GTFO? The title of the genre, not how people choose to play the game, should dictate how the game is played...and anyone who doesn't enjoy playing the game according to the genre title and your ideals is wrong.

hmm....

I didn't say that, did I?

I said it was sad, disappointing, and so on. No-one has to GTFO. But some people could try playing the game rather than just checking boxes and obsessing about their own "achievements".

I'm also pretty sure the checkboxers and "Loot N Leave" are not the actual majority - just a very loud minority. I think it's also really hypocritical to play in a "loot and leave" way and then get mad about "lack of content" and so on.

[Deleted]

I'm gonna watch a walkthrough of zelda before I play it.

Not the same thing, in the slightest. Zelda's a single player experience that you adventure through, figuring out puzzles and fighting monsters etc.. at your own pace. When you join a raid in WoW people are there to kill bosses and get loot. Most players don't appreciate wiping on bosses for hours to achieve this goal. Some players have limited time to play in the week like myself, I only have 1-2 hours a night after work to get on. So when you create a group I'd say it's reasonable to want to optimize my time and create a group with other players who understand the fight so I have a chance of clearing the raid before the lockout reset.

If there's material online you can research to achieve killing the boss faster and smoother and the leader of the group requires you to read and understand it then that's fair enough. If you feel like figuring out the boss as you go and enjoy learning on the spot then feel free to make a raid with like-minded players.

Really a silly comparison to a single player game.

[shaunika123]

What went wrong with this games community? How can we fix it?

apparently you did

[Eurhetemec]

Not the same thing, in the slightest. Zelda's a single player experience that you adventure through, figuring out puzzles and fighting monsters etc.. at your own pace. When you join a raid in WoW people are there to kill bosses and get loot. Most players don't appreciate wiping on bosses for hours to achieve this goal. Some players have limited time to play in the week like myself, I only have 1-2 hours a night after work to get on. So when you create a group I'd say it's reasonable to want to optimize my time and create a group with other players who understand the fight so I have a chance of clearing the raid before the lockout reset.

If there's material online you can research to achieve killing the boss faster and smoother and the leader of the group requires you to read and understand it then that's fair enough. If you feel like figuring out the boss as you go and enjoy learning on the spot then feel free to make a raid with like-minded players.

Really a silly comparison to a single player game.

This post is a pretty good illustration of how the culture in WoW (and many MMOs) has changed from one of learning and exploring and actually playing the game, to one of "I JUST WANT MY LOOT STOP WASTING MY PRECIOUS AND LIMITED TIME YOU SHITS!". People used to be there to see the raid and play the game, even have some kind of social experience. Now, as you say, they're merely there to "get loot" and leave ASAP.

It's like, if you really only have 1-2 hours/night to play, you could never have raided in Classic/TBC/WotLK, probably not Cata either. The idea that that's long enough to raid is a very new one. So that's another part of the change.

Also, over the years, I've seen plenty of people wipe for hours having watched guides, and others succeed very quickly with minimal instructions from a raid leader, so I'm really skeptical that, beyond the basics, it makes much difference. Going in TOTALLY blind, not even the raid leader having any idea of the mechanics? That's clearly different, but that's not really what the OP is discussing.

Another problem with relying on external guides and refusing to explain etc. in-game is that people will often watch guides which have different strats to the ones other guides use... Seen some hilarious blow-ups because of that in PUG raids and even a couple of guild ones.

I'm not saying you're "wrong" or a "bad person" or "need to gtfo" (so hopefully no-one will claim I am), nor am I saying that raid leaders "shouldn't be allowed" to demand people watch videos etc. - it's their raid, of course they can - but at the point where you're watching a video of every fight, learning everything beforehand, you're not really playing the same sort of game we used to, and the "BUT OTHER PEOPLE" excuse is paper-thin (almost as thin as "I only have 1-2 hours!"). You're barely playing a game at all - instead you're following a procedure to extract loot as quickly as possible - basically turning WoW into ProgressQuest even more than it normally is.

[lazorexplosion]

Good old stated preferences vs revealed preferences.

Time and again this forum is all 'I want hard raids' and 'I want a more social experience' and yet when it actually comes down to it in practice it's all 'wiping is a waste of time' and 'I shouldn't have to explain stuff to anybody'.

No matter how much people pretend otherwise, want the majority wants is easy, un-social, quick loot.

[unbound]

maybe people want you to actualty show you give a shit and look up how to do the fights? how is anything wrong with the community?

Do people think WoW is a game that you should explore and enjoy? No way! Are you expecting raid leaders to spend 2 minutes explaining the encounter? Are you expecting players to rise to a challenge and work cooperatively with others? No way!

Furthermore, you are expected to be on-point with talent choices and gear, and be able to perform your rotation in your sleep!

It's the OP's fault for thinking he's playing a video game!

/facepalm

[Deleted]

This post is a pretty good illustration of how the culture in WoW (and many MMOs) has changed from one of learning and exploring and actually playing the game, to one of "I JUST WANT MY LOOT STOP WASTING MY PRECIOUS AND LIMITED TIME YOU SHITS!". People used to be there to see the raid and play the game, even have some kind of social experience. Now, as you say, they're merely there to "get loot" and leave ASAP.

It's like, if you really only have 1-2 hours/night to play, you could never have raided in Classic/TBC/WotLK, probably not Cata either. The idea that that's long enough to raid is a very new one. So that's another part of the change.

Also, over the years, I've seen plenty of people wipe for hours having watched guides, and others succeed very quickly with minimal instructions from a raid leader, so I'm really skeptical that, beyond the basics, it makes much difference. Going in TOTALLY blind, not even the raid leader having any idea of the mechanics? That's clearly different, but that's not really what the OP is discussing.

Another problem with relying on external guides and refusing to explain etc. in-game is that people will often watch guides which have different strats to the ones other guides use... Seen some hilarious blow-ups because of that in PUG raids and even a couple of guild ones.

I'm not saying you're "wrong" or a "bad person" or "need to gtfo" (so hopefully no-one will claim I am), nor am I saying that raid leaders "shouldn't be allowed" to demand people watch videos etc. - it's their raid, of course they can - but at the point where you're watching a video of every fight, learning everything beforehand, you're not really playing the same sort of game we used to, and the "BUT OTHER PEOPLE" excuse is paper-thin (almost as thin as "I only have 1-2 hours!"). You're barely playing a game at all - instead you're following a procedure to extract loot as quickly as possible - basically turning WoW into ProgressQuest even more than it normally is.

I see what you're saying but this aspect has been around since YouTube and WoWHead / Thottbot type sites have been around. I mean we used to require people to research fights before allowing them into our MC/BWL pugs back in the day. I mean even in Star Wars Galaxies we had people read up on things before embarking It's just become more widespread of a requirement as it's easier to organize a raidgroup than it used to be.

Sadly when you only have limited time to play the game and you have the mindset of "I want my character to improve", you kind of NEED to have that type of playstyle, otherwise you simply won't progress.

Overall when talking about a PUG the mentality hasn't changed much over the years. Players have nearly always wanted the run to go smoothly and at least the raid leaders had watched guides or read up on the encounters. It's just the accessibility of players being able to create their raids so easily has made people have stricter requirements. Also if you're in a raid with a leader who has just expected everybody to watch a video then go in with them not leading you should leave the raid and find a new one, as they're a really shitty raid leader

[Eon Drache]

Been this way since I started raiding back in Wrath.

[ItachiZaku]

I was more LOLing at the "must have 2200 exp, link cheeve" things for the RBG groups in group finder. If you are in there looking for that, you obviously need help.

[coprax]

What's wrong is people like you are too lazy to look up the fight on youtube and watch a short video, or at least google and read the strats.

How can we fix it? By you knowing the god damn fight.

Reading a guide is not knowing the fight.
You know the fight when you have played it yourself.

[stomination]

I'm gonna watch a walkthrough of zelda before I play it.

Which that would be a single player game.

- - - Updated - - -

If the information's available to review, why not review it before trying it?

Going in blind is a waste of time in an MMORPG where you can't just think about just your time, but everyone's time.

And then instead of wasting time wiping you can spend time eating nice juicy steaks.

[Turtlewithnoshell]

What went wrong with this games community? How can we fix it?

Take the time to read the dungeon journal and know what you're supposed to do before the fight? How outrageous. Someone else should do that and explain it all to me because I'm lazy.