Healing is haaaaaard.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

PS: wtb good DH tanks. They've been a mess.

DHs are the new DKs. They'll be hit and miss for a bit while so many are playing with the spec, then very solid once the only ones still tanking on them have sorted it out.

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You can only outheal bad to some degree.

Missing a single interrupt? - you can deal with it if you overgear things.
Missing a chain of interrupts? Wipe. Nothing you can really do.
... Apart from handling the interrupts yourself.
I'm often doing that; the idea is that throwing out an arcane torrent and/or holy word: chastise can save me from having to do millions of healing later. Of course as a holypriest, my interrupt is stuck on a 1 cooldown, so a chain of them is still not really possible to deal with. And lots of boss abilities seem to be immune to Arcane Torrent this expansion. It used to be the other way around!

Doing a double pull? - you can deal with it if the tank overgear things as well.
In fact, probably easily, if the tank overgears things.
But no matter what you cannot really pull double output, so you can't really handle it on your own.
You absolutely rely on the tank handling the brunt of it.
If you pull all your cooldowns, you might be able to manage double damage for 10-20ish seconds.
After that it's all down to praying every single heal you land is a critical hit.
Which might just happen. Some groups certainly assume it will.
But eventually you are going to be disappointed, and then it's a wipe.

If the tank is undergeared, he's gonna take silly amounts of damage.
You have literally no margin of error, and need to spamheal him on every single GCD to keep him up.
The truly terribly geared tanks also rely on most of those heals being crits.
That is still doable, as long as everyone else is doing their job of interrupting and not standing in damage.
Of course... yeah, you know how it is.

The worst boss to heal in the game is definitively the serpent boss in eye of aszhara. The damage output is high, everyone is taking stupid amounts of damage, and that annoying wind is blowing you into stuff all the time. So you have to move. Which means not healing. Which means the tank dips down to 25% HP again. And you then have to spamheal him like crazy to get him up again. But now everyone else is nearing critical levels. So you pull a Divine Hymn or something to save the situation. It's _barely_ working. But OH no! You're being blown into a damage zone, and must move and cancel the effect! But the everyone dies! So you say fuck it and eat the damage anyway, taking deadly damage in hope to save everyone else while your divine hymn does its thing. Which really isn't working... but you seek to delay it as much as possible. And then you die from that damage, and everyone is like "WTF healer, why didn't you move!?" followed by a votekick.

But even as terrible experience as that is, it's still a whole lot more comfy than healing heroics in Cataclysm. Cata healing was like that for every boss, with an added "fun limit" of being able to cast 8 heals before OOMing. Legion healing is amazing in comparison, and pretty much great in general. Just avoid those undergeared tanks. You really cannot deal with them unless everyone else is on their A game.

Interesting to read all this from a healer's perspective. I've only tanked in Legion so haven't seen how other groups are doing things. I've tanked the EoA serpent boss on mythic on my pally with no problems, and soloed him normal-mode with my 102 DH after the rest of party died. To me he's a straight-forward fight as long as you clear trash. I can definitely see the wind and movement driving healer crazy, but he doesn't hit so hard a tank can't manage him. Sure goes faster when rest of party stays alive to help.

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If it makes you feel any better, I had a tank ask me what "Active Mitigation" was yesterday... In Vault of the Wardens Mythic. The day before on Arcway Mythic, I was told to stop dps'ing and heal. I will give you one guess as to what class these two were playing, and one guess as to what (healer) spec I play, haha.

The glory of start of expac dungeons. I do love the challenges, I just hate the players.

It can be entertaining, if you remember to laugh about it. As tank had a dps ask group if I was holding agro since he kept taking damage. Had to explain about NPC abilities and how I couldn't interrupt/stun everything; a bit of help from him would be nice? At least the healer backed me up that time. Healer and I went on to 2-man mythic Hel'ya after we gave up on keeping rest alive.

[Deleted]

I feel like bosses are mostly yawn fest if everybody knows what to do and avoid stuff, if not, they punish mistakes way too hard and I honestly can't do much. On the other hand Trash packs are super annoying doing that much damage.

OOM on trashpacks. Spam DPS on bosses.
That's pretty much where legion dungeon healing is at the moment.

[Kashim]

There are two packs in Violet Hold that are decently hard to heal through if interrupts/cc are lacking.
The ones with the spider, and another pack. They stack a dot that is hard to dispel because of your 8 second CD.
Even on heroic, if the tank is not very good geared, they are hard to heal through.

Oh so I've not just been imagining things...F that spider pack in particular. I have no time to spare killing a broodling that's on me and DPS tunnel vision. But they f'n hurt.


But back to topic, you'll notice the difference between 'pure' DPS players and the good ones. The good ones go the extra mile spending their precious resources stunning and interrupting. I feel the dungeons are balanced around people are doing that. As long as they get some stuns and ints off, trash will feel easier than the bosses. But currently in most groups the trash can be significantly more stressful than several bosses.

[Spray]

Tanking is so much about active mitigation now that it's very probable that yours was just tunnel-visioning boss and mashing damage abilities.

[TheRabidDeer]

No, a good healer cannot carry a bad group. If the group isn't interrupting, staying our of stuff, and properly DPSing, then it will simply fail, eventually.

I disagree. It will be slower and there might be a couple deaths, but a good healer can definitely carry a bad group. There are some exceptions though, such as Cordana where people will simply die on mythic if they cant find the hole.

[Hyve]

Your group sucked.

Of course it's on a dungeon by dungeon basis, some of them do more AoE then others, but generally speaking, when I go into a Dungeon, the Healer spends most of their time doing DPS. I self-heal too much for them to bother, and it means things die fast enough that there is no AoE splash damage going around.

Blackrook Hold is the only exception because everyone seems to stand in all the AoE in that Dungeon. No idea why ...

[Deleted]

I've gotten the feeling from this launch as a healer that either you have a good group and everything goes great, or you have to work your ass off to keep idiotic DPS alive because they just refuse to not stand in shit or follow basic mechanics. It feels worse than ever... people are so worried about what's going on with the meters that they'll just stand in shit so they don't have downtime. It doesn't help that it seems like most mechanics in mythics are just a big FUCK YOU to healers. There's so much shit that's reliant on DPS not being idiots that can either one shot them, damage the entire group or just cause difficulties in general for the healers.

That's an unwanted side-effect of the game becoming more and more data-driven to players: they'll sacrifice survivability to end up higher on the meters, and the "good" DPS are clever enough to not make it too apparent that they are doing so, but it is still taxing the healers beyond repair.
Every ounce of DPS is being analyzed to micro-detail, often without going into damage taken statistics, so you create an atmosphere of stress and high performance requirements for 1 part of the game without much focus on the other one. Instead Healers just have to learn to cope.

[Laurathansal]

Healing being hard is what makes me enjoy healing. I was a tank from Vanilla through to early WotLK, and then changed to healing precisely because it was hard and rewarding when you do it right. Being able to pull groups of noobs through which would otherwise have failed gives me great joy playing the game.

You know, being a noob isn't a crime. EVeryone was a noob at some point in time. So just enjoy the game. It being hard only makes it better.

[Danner]

DHs are the new DKs. They'll be hit and miss for a bit while so many are playing with the spec, then very solid once the only ones still tanking on them have sorted it out.

Interesting to read all this from a healer's perspective. I've only tanked in Legion so haven't seen how other groups are doing things. I've tanked the EoA serpent boss on mythic on my pally with no problems, and soloed him normal-mode with my 102 DH after the rest of party died. To me he's a straight-forward fight as long as you clear trash. I can definitely see the wind and movement driving healer crazy, but he doesn't hit so hard a tank can't manage him. Sure goes faster when rest of party stays alive to help.

That first part is so true!
The worst tanks to heal are Demon Hunters.
The best tanks to heal are Demon Hunters.
It's always a gamble which you get.

Some demon hunter tanks just love to take 250k damage per second, and I have no idea how to remotely outheal that if someone else need healing too.
I have no idea how they even DO that, because, the bosses just shouldn't hit that hard, and there is a minimum gear check to enter heroics.
Yet that is the reality. Some DH tanks going from 100% to 25% HP in 5 seconds is normal fare.

Other demon hunter tanks literally take no damage. I spend the entire fight spamming smite, and maybe just maybe throw out a renew on a melee every 20 seconds. Those fights are seriously boring.

Paladin tanks are fine to heal. I mean, you take more damage than a awesome-end demon hunter, but it's almost always predictable damage, and never on the unhealable side of things. A paladin tank means I have to work a little, but never break a sweat. I know I can leave a paladin tank at 50% for 5 seconds if someone else is critical, and it's still going to be okay!

[aziras]

I always loved tanking, and enjoy playing a healer as well. It leads to some interesting perspective on ability to compensate for the other role.

Having played all the tanks through the years (except monk, for some reason that class means nothing for me and I never got one past lvl10) I had to pick up a DH this time around.

The amount of utility havoc has is absolutely ridiculous. It is also easy to see that how a player without an eye for the cooldowns, interrupts, stuns, silence, disorients, etc. can completely suck. That even without factoring in their many different damage reduction options, all on small cooldowns that implies they should be used often, but still timed well.
I feel like I have a whole group's worth of utility. But a player who does not understand game mechanics and abilities will likely only use two buttons.

It is a complicated balancing issue. Blizzard cannot make the game require everyone to understand mechanics or it would make endgame inaccessible to way too many players.
On the other hand, a lot of the endgame is based on PUGs that are destroyed by even the simplest requirements. Which ultimately makes the game undertuned when good players align. It is what the harder modes are for, but those require a different level of organisation, which typically filters out the bad players anyway.

[Ifeanychukwu]

That's an unwanted side-effect of the game becoming more and more data-driven to players: they'll sacrifice survivability to end up higher on the meters, and the "good" DPS are clever enough to not make it too apparent that they are doing so, but it is still taxing the healers beyond repair.
Every ounce of DPS is being analyzed to micro-detail, often without going into damage taken statistics, so you create an atmosphere of stress and high performance requirements for 1 part of the game without much focus on the other one. Instead Healers just have to learn to cope.

Very interesting points. The next time I'm in a dungeon with someone that likes to post meters to party chat I'll be sure to post damage taken stats as well :P

[Lochton]

Long story short, I'm a paladin who tried healing a heroic for the first time today, I got Violet Hold and it didn't go well in the slightest.

All my gear was mythic quality, I had int trinkets equipped, I had healbot installed, I knew how to play the spec, I levelled my artifact to 13, I had decent relics in each slot and still I had to spam Flash of Light and blow all my cooldowns before the first boss just to keep the tank alive.

As a tank, I have no trouble carrying a bad healer, I assumed that the reverse would be true as well. Is it possible for a bad and/or undergeared tank to invalidate the efforts of a well geared and prepared healer or do I just suck?

Kthanks, plz be nice.

If your gear is as you said, then this sounds more like a Tank/DPS problem.

[Deleted]

Very interesting points. The next time I'm in a dungeon with someone that likes to post meters to party chat I'll be sure to post damage taken stats as well :P

I always have it open next to Damage Done, I don't look at HPS as a healer since I know I'm doing a good job.

It's absolutely stunning how much damage some DPS take relative to others, and I'm not comparing them to immortal Rogues. Sure, you can manage as a healer, but why not promote good behavior instead of fixing mistakes others make and never saying a word about it?

If they react like their panties are in a twist, I might just forget to heal them next time they soak frontal tank cleaves. Petty? Sure, but if dialogue doesn't work, then a slap to the face sometimes does.

[SoundOfGuns]

For me so far, half the DH tanks I heal get destroyed, even with decent gear. Not sure if it's the class or just people new to tanking and not using defensive abilities.

Or just unwilling to use a cooldown because they think "YE HEALER SHOULD BE ABLE TO JUST DO THAT." which we really should not be forced to. I remember being in Heroic Emerald-Nightmare-Dungeon-Thing... and being asked in the end if i was doing something else and not focused because our DH-Tank was dropping low. I noticed that. I also noticed he did not do jackshit to prevert his health from dropping even when he was on 20%. Nobody died in that run tho EXCEPT ME. So i simply responded that he might wants to ask the Tank about that, but that i am aware why he doesn't since they were from the same Guild so OBVIOUSLY it must be someone else, not his flawless, inexperienced pawn of a friend that did not even care for my Manapool, forcing me to go bubble-martyr throughout the second boss...

Long story short; Its likely not even you. But its good that you reflect on yourself and look there first.

[Danner]

I always have it open next to Damage Done, I don't look at HPS as a healer since I know I'm doing a good job.

It's absolutely stunning how much damage some DPS take relative to others, and I'm not comparing them to immortal Rogues. Sure, you can manage as a healer, but why not promote good behavior instead of fixing mistakes others make and never saying a word about it?

If they react like their panties are in a twist, I might just forget to heal them next time they soak frontal tank cleaves. Petty? Sure, but if dialogue doesn't work, then a slap to the face sometimes does.

You know those DPSers that love kill the healers when jumping down the waters in Neltharion's Lair?
I say DPSers killing healers, because healers are always the last to jump down the ledge, and thus the one facing the brunt of the "joke".
And I've yet to meet a tank that actively wanted to piss off his healer.

I always make a point to use levitate before landing... but when I spot a shaman throwing water walking on me prior to landing, or a DK putting up path of frost - I make a damned point of not healing them the rest of the instance. They decided to fuck with the healer, they pay for it in repair costs.

I just can't seem to let either of those classes die.

Not for lack of lack of healing. I absolutely do not heal those asshats.
And not for them taking low damage. They seem to bounce up and down like crazy.

It's just that they seem to be perfectly able to keep themselves alive through almost anything. Last time I did that run, the shaman (who water-walked me mid-fall) was second in damage taken, half that of the tank itself, miles ahead of everyone else. And yet... he never once died. Even that triple pull where we wiped (and I have no idea how he managed to avoid dying in that aftermath; he certainly didn't use reincarnate). So I wonder if some DPSers are just more prone to take - and heal - damage?

Anyway - I approve of the closed fist school of healing.

[Deleted]

Long story short, I'm a paladin who tried healing a heroic for the first time today, I got Violet Hold and it didn't go well in the slightest.

All my gear was mythic quality, I had int trinkets equipped, I had healbot installed, I knew how to play the spec, I levelled my artifact to 13, I had decent relics in each slot and still I had to spam Flash of Light and blow all my cooldowns before the first boss just to keep the tank alive.

As a tank, I have no trouble carrying a bad healer, I assumed that the reverse would be true as well. Is it possible for a bad and/or undergeared tank to invalidate the efforts of a well geared and prepared healer or do I just suck?

Kthanks, plz be nice.

Well if the tank is shit and the DPS dont give a rats ass about avoiding or mitigating damage...

[Lady Dragonheart]

A good Healer that is geared can carry a bad group, but at the cost of being mana-drained for most of the dungeon - less so for (current) Raids, since they're set up to be less forgiven.

If you are mana-drained, you cannot interrupt or heal efficiently, that much is obvious. Unless you're referring to soloing the dungeon, I doubt that healers can do that unless they are so severely overgeared that they dungeon is long past outdated. If you know anything about being a healer, letting a baddie simply die is more effective to the group's overall performance than trying to heal them.

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I disagree. It will be slower and there might be a couple deaths, but a good healer can definitely carry a bad group. There are some exceptions though, such as Cordana where people will simply die on mythic if they cant find the hole.

So you're saying that an entire group of bad players can simply be carried by a single healer? No, that's nonsense unless they are so overgeared for the dungeon that they could solo it. By that point, carrying would be the term, since you are better off without the group hindering you. Which, you should simply solo the dungeons, if you could.

[Deleted]

Anyway - I approve of the closed fist school of healing.

It's my favorite school of healing. Healers need to profile themselves as leaders more, we are the only role that inherently promotes the optimal, methodical play style:
- Avoid bad stuff so we don't have to bust a nut keeping you alive.
- Interrupt bad stuff so everyone takes less damage.
- Dispell bad stuff so we remain in control of damage taken (as much as possible).
- Promote optimal positioning so the dragon breaths don't hit the entire raid/group.
- Kill everything as quickly as possible, taking into account all of the above, so the overall damage taken remains as low as possible.

A tank his basic role is to keep the monsters from attacking the others, a DPS his basic role is to kill stuff. A healer, however, has to keep everyone alive and needs to incorporate all of the above.

[Frumpy Frumpy Frak]

I always make a point to use levitate before landing... but when I spot a shaman throwing water walking on me prior to landing, or a DK putting up path of frost - I make a damned point of not healing them the rest of the instance. They decided to fuck with the healer, they pay for it in repair costs.

Do water walking effects even cause fall damage anymore? I jump into water with Path of Frost on all the time and I've never gotten hurt from it.

[Majestic12]

Sounds like you just had a really bad tank. I noticed that bad tanks tend to be demon hunters. I am a HPally too and healing was overall very easy for me. I run heroics as dpsspec now even. I did mythics from 815.