Warlocks and Emerald Nightmare

[Deleted]

A lot of people have gotten their relic to 16 in 2 or 3 specs, don't blame Blizzard because you went all in despite a lot of evidence saying why that wasn't a great idea.

I do admit getting relics for offspecs can be a challenge.

He went all in on the most viable raiding spec.

I went for the 16/16/16 split and while I think it was better, it's no less frustrating having grinded more than the priests / mages / rogues in the guild and still having a weaker weapon and feeling behind even besides that, and don't get me started on having to farm 9 bloody relics.

Hybrid tax may be gone, but it's starting to feel like a pure tax has sprung up.

[Bloodwynde]

So I'm the guy. I'm the guy raiding Affliction. Someone HAD to be doing it. And I like having a Scythe darnit. And? It kinda works. I say kinda because we're all aware of the issues affliction has, but it actually shines in a few places. ll'gynoth is a dreamfight, top 3 to top 1 on the fight. Renferal is another fight I did very well in. And I did reasonably well on Dragons of Nightmare.
Now to be frank, in everything but ll'gynoth, others did do better, if even it was just on or two players. And I am not blind to the ENORMOUS issues facing Affliction. That being said, I don't think it's the useless trash everyone makes it out to be. It's harder to get performance out of, and the rng is breathing down your neck, but if you push it, it CAN work.
All of this being said, it really needs another pass, our dragon traits need a tweak, Agony needs to ramp a bit faster, and seeds needs a faster cast, at the bare minimum. But I just kept seeing people dismiss Affliction out of hand.

[Deleted]

I really wanted to play affliction as well, and I had banked all my AP in hopes that blizz would cave and meaningfully buff the spec, but alas, that was not the case. With one week left before EN released, I caved and invested everything in Demo. What a shit situation this turned out to be because now I am going to have to go destro to stay even remotely competitive in raids with heavy movement and +2 targets (which is almost all of them).

There is still some hope. Let's hope they don't wait too long for the long awaited balance patch/hotfix ....

In my dreams Affliction is a really good spec, but only when played by a really good player. I want affliction to be a spec that separates the wheat from the chaff.

I think affliction is a very unique spec, but I hate to play specs that are really really really bad. I feel like I am letting my guild down if I play trash specs.

[TKSaga]

So as of last night I jumped from 845ilvl to 856ilvl, becoming the 15th most geared lock in the 'West' (excluding china) and the 1st on my server (US-Sargeras).

One of those upgrades was the legendary bracers for destro. I haven't been able to sim myself properly (or really know how to.) What kind of DPS increase am I looking at with the bracers? My guild cleared 7/7 normal and 3/7 Heroic last night in ~4 hours and at best I was 850ilvl and only pulling around 250k dps on average (this is before I got the legendary later in the night through mythic+), leaving me to be about 10th on the DPS logs. Is this about right for our current state?

[Deleted]

I take it all back - we suck. lol

It's fun to play -- but numbers are trash. I thought coming from mythic groups and topping all charts on ST to the raid would work. But in hindsight that was stupid - much more movement in raids and we got fuck all in terms of anything when running except shadowflame and that spell that poops out purple.

E:

This is after getting up to Xavius before calling it a night (we ran over our 3 hour time and no one thought we'd get this far, so no one read up on Xavius haha).

Logs show us 100K under everyone.

Pure ST - Nythendra, Ursoc (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/10#boss=1841)
Specced fully into ST, Demo which is the strongest ST spec is currently almost 100k behind based on mean damage.

KINGS OF CLEAVE DESTRO (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/10#boss=1854)

Mixed AoE/Cleave/ST - Illgynoth (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/10#boss=1873)
All 3 warlock specs up to 100k behind several other specs.

Yep. Situation isn't looking good. I hope the alarm sirens in Blizzard HQ are currently ringing

But with only 2.8% representation of player base I heavily doubt that they worry much. Not enough money

[Phyrexium]

There is still some hope. Let's hope they don't wait too long for the long awaited balance patch/hotfix ....

In my dreams Affliction is a really good spec, but only when played by a really good player. I want affliction to be a spec that separates the wheat from the chaff.

I think affliction is a very unique spec, but I hate to play specs that are really really really bad. I feel like I am letting my guild down if I play trash specs.

I couldn't agree more; Affliction should be that spec that culls the herd so to speak. I really hope Blizz is paying attention and addresses this soon I would like nothing more then to go full affliction.

[Jaman]

He went all in on the most viable raiding spec.

I went for the 16/16/16 split and while I think it was better, it's no less frustrating having grinded more than the priests / mages / rogues in the guild and still having a weaker weapon and feeling behind even besides that, and don't get me started on having to farm 9 bloody relics.

Hybrid tax may be gone, but it's starting to feel like a pure tax has sprung up.

Sure, and I went all in on that spec too. But people have been saying since before the expansion went live that Demo would be stronger on a couple of single target fights, and there was plenty of evidence saying how easy it was to get a 2nd artifact leveled up. If people (like me) still wanted to go all in on one spec that's fine - but don't turn around and blame Blizzard for something that was a conscious decision. They provided a way to get off specs leveled up, it's up to you whether or or not you decided to do so.

Now I will agree that getting relics is a problem, but I wasn't referring to that.

[Finnigast]

As much as I have been fighting valiantly to say that Warlocks "aren't that bad", the numbers from Warcraft Logs are disconcerting. I went through and looked for the top two ranked Warlocks on each boss at Heroic difficulty, this is what I found:

- Nythendra: 1st - 203, 2nd - 252
- Il'gynoth: 1st - 159, 2nd - 220
- Elereth: 1st - 211, 2nd - 401 (jesus...)
- Ursoc: 1st - 235, 2nd - 294
- Dragons: 1st - 16, 2nd - 18 (the fight we were supposed to be gods at....)
- Cenarius: 1st - 13, 2nd - 66 (limited data here as very few completions)
- Xavius: Didn't run, only one guild cleared. However, their Warlocks were 10th and 12th...

So, I can choose to look at this two ways. Numbers are skewed because few people are willing to roll Locks in raids, thus the top spots are being taken by fotm classes (which, given that every class is represented above locks, must mean every other class is fotm); or, Locks really do suck.

Hopefully this will finally get Blizzard's attention...

[Deleted]

Warlocks are simply outright garbage

the boys in the warlock discord are in full denial and damage control, and literally no raidlead worth a damn brings more than 1 WL to the raid, its simply a huge DPS waste

[Maltore]

Hopefully this will finally get Blizzard's attention...

It's been on their radar for a couple of weeks now. It's just that they are choosing not to do anything about it for now. They're using an abundance of caution when it comes to balancing. This is probably the trend they will continue throughout Legion, and it's all because of the Artifact leveling system. They're afraid of disrupting the "hierarchy of specs" (as Watcher put it). So when the tuning pass does finally come, don't expect major improvements. I'd be surprised if the tuning pass adjusted just certain spells by more than 5%. And after this tuning pass, I wouldn't expect them to touch the classes at all until 7.1, unless there's an obviously broken OP ability.

They probably won't do it, and I understand why, but I think the best thing would be to allow players to transfer AP from one weapon to another. Making it very costly with a long cooldown (weeks), or only allow it after a major balance patch, would be fine. But like I said, they probably won't do that, and they'll likely continue to be overly cautious and slow when it comes to balance this expansion.

[dakalro]

They can just reset the tree and give you the skill points to use for every major tuning pass. Not complicated.

[Finnigast]

It's been on their radar for a couple of weeks now. It's just that they are choosing not to do anything about it for now. They're using an abundance of caution when it comes to balancing. This is probably the trend they will continue throughout Legion, and it's all because of the Artifact leveling system. They're afraid of disrupting the "hierarchy of specs" (as Watcher put it). So when the tuning pass does finally come, don't expect major improvements. I'd be surprised if the tuning pass adjusted just certain spells by more than 5%. And after this tuning pass, I wouldn't expect them to touch the classes at all until 7.1, unless there's an obviously broken OP ability.

They probably won't do it, and I understand why, but I think the best thing would be to allow players to transfer AP from one weapon to another. Making it very costly with a long cooldown (weeks), or only allow it after a major balance patch, would be fine. But like I said, they probably won't do that, and they'll likely continue to be overly cautious and slow when it comes to balance this expansion.

While I hate it, you are probably right. While I would love to see a 10% damage buff across the board (which still wouldn't put us near top tier), I doubt we will even get that much...

[Deleted]

What talents you gonna go as destro and demo?

[benjaminandjen]

I just read through all these posts.

Everything you're seeing in the logs RIGHT NOW was discussed by Furty on his twitch channel going all the way back to alpha. I remember him saying, in alpha, that this was the worst class balance he's ever seen. He'd NEVER seen such enormous discrepancies between classes.

But it wasn't just Furty and the members of Serenity. Thousands of alpha and beta players were reporting MAJOR design problems to Blizzard and they did absolutely nothing. Furty spoke at length about how Warlocks were intentionally broken and there would be no fix month after month.

I'm saying all this in mourning as unsub who hates Legion, the artifact system, and Blizzard's negligence. And I don't know if you guys have noticed, but a lot of pretty major people have left Blizzard since Legion launched. Including the designer of the entire artifact system.

[pkm]

Hybrid tax may be gone, but it's starting to feel like a pure tax has sprung up.

Or just a warlock tax in general?

I've done first boss and illg whatever the fuck his name is that giant eye on heroic, with guild today. I can't imagine myself doing them as a warlock at fucking all really. So many moments called for movement, and a major lust burn phase, which doesn't even last long at all because staying inside gets you killed. A warlock in that situation would be hell.

If you weren't lucky you could keep getting rot and having to move all the way to the edge then run all the way back into position while doing no damage, save for dots and whatever demons are summoned at the time. That shit just doesn't fly for mythic content.

Warlock representation will shrink even more moving into mythic mode.

[Deleted]

Sure, and I went all in on that spec too. But people have been saying since before the expansion went live that Demo would be stronger on a couple of single target fights, and there was plenty of evidence saying how easy it was to get a 2nd artifact leveled up. If people (like me) still wanted to go all in on one spec that's fine - but don't turn around and blame Blizzard for something that was a conscious decision. They provided a way to get off specs leveled up, it's up to you whether or or not you decided to do so.

Now I will agree that getting relics is a problem, but I wasn't referring to that.

No. I've split my strategy and pumped all of them up to respectable levels since I enjoy pvping too so I need all 3 specs to perform.

It's perfectly fair to blame Blizzard for making a shitty system that penalizes you for playing multiple specs, while also designing the game to be nigh-unplayable in some areas without playing multiple specs as some pures, warlocks seemingly having it the worst since I think most other pures at least only need two at most.

It's a shit system if you go all in.
It's a shit system if you spread your points.
It is just a shit system.

Or just a warlock tax in general?

I've done first boss and illg whatever the fuck his name is that giant eye on heroic, with guild today. I can't imagine myself doing them as a warlock at fucking all really. So many moments called for movement, and a major lust burn phase, which doesn't even last long at all because staying inside gets you killed. A warlock in that situation would be hell.

If you weren't lucky you could keep getting rot and having to move all the way to the edge then run all the way back into position while doing no damage, save for dots and whatever demons are summoned at the time. That shit just doesn't fly for mythic content.

Warlock representation will shrink even more moving into mythic mode.

Fights being bad for a class is nothing new and I'm fine with that.

Being arbitrarily penalized on my artifacts is a new and unpleasant beast though. Part of the reason that I've enjoyed being a pure and loathed all those cries in MOP for warlocks to get a tanking spec is because I had three specs worth of tools to apply to the problem of minmaxing for an encounter, now I have to perform a marginal amount worse in order to do it.

All the more aggravating when it feels like warlocks are the only class with such a fragmented toolkit that it feels necessary as opposed to just an AP vent when returns get so small later in the tree.

[vaeevictiss]

I take it all back - we suck. lol

It's fun to play -- but numbers are trash. I thought coming from mythic groups and topping all charts on ST to the raid would work. But in hindsight that was stupid - much more movement in raids and we got fuck all in terms of anything when running except shadowflame and that spell that poops out purple.

E:

This is after getting up to Xavius before calling it a night (we ran over our 3 hour time and no one thought we'd get this far, so no one read up on Xavius haha).

Logs show us 100K under everyone.

Pure ST - Nythendra, Ursoc (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/10#boss=1841)
Specced fully into ST, Demo which is the strongest ST spec is currently almost 100k behind based on mean damage.

KINGS OF CLEAVE DESTRO (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/10#boss=1854)

Mixed AoE/Cleave/ST - Illgynoth (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/10#boss=1873)
All 3 warlock specs up to 100k behind several other specs.

where was that guy here that was posting in every lock thread bitching and saying we were fine...cant remember his name but i would recognize it if i saw it and i havnt seen any input from him lol. You had people saying this was going to happen...and back up with numbers why it was going to happen...yet people were just like blizzard puppies and kept saying "youre fine".


EDIT: however this could also be because theres only like 17 of us still playing a warlock lol

[Deleted]

Warlocks don't bring anything for the important fights of this game.

The best warlock spec was destro in terms of roles, you would destroy priority targets far way from the boss .
Now we get wreak havoc making balance impossible , so just nerf it .

Demo is useless , if Demo doesn't top the charts by a good % there is no need to bring them, they offer nothing .
Aff damage is just on the ground if the fight requires slow dmg on many targets could offer us a raid spot.

Even with number fix , we lost the identity the provided warlock with raid spots.

I would pick a mage or hunter over a warlock any day .

[Deleted]

where was that guy here that was posting in every lock thread bitching and saying we were fine...cant remember his name but i would recognize it if i saw it and i havnt seen any input from him lol. You had people saying this was going to happen...and back up with numbers why it was going to happen...yet people were just like blizzard puppies and kept saying "youre fine".


EDIT: however this could also be because theres only like 17 of us still playing a warlock lol

Well, I was one of the few who said that warlocks were fully capable of running heroics and mythic dungeons, but that noone should expect to top meters in a group with at least semi decent players.

I also said that warlocks had a bunch of issues with numbers and mechanics, it was just getting annoying with all the extreme hyperbole (Having a warlock in a group is as good as just running 4 man dungeons, etc). Now the logs are out for heroic raids, and warlocks are even further behind than I thought they would be.

Which means we will get buffs in due time, and hopefully some mechanical upgrades along with that. (Still counting on baseline interrupt myself).

[Requimortem]

Even from the beginning I knew Destruction was going to be the "best" of our three miserable specializations but I told myself I had to stick to Demonology because it would be more "fun". Unfortunately for me, I forgot that "fun" isn't a priority in this video game.