Arms Legion Discussion

[Creatinebrah]

They need to nerf FR (it can still be the best single target spec) and buff other aspects of the class. There are other builds that can AoE/Cleave, whatever. They are just horribly undertuned due to the only thing making arms work at all is the ridiculousness of the Focused Rage synergy and mastery stacking.

Anyone still trying to lie to themselves that it won't get nerfed on Monday is delusional.

a bit off topic, monday...where'd you hear it would be monday?

[Artunias]

a bit off topic, monday...where'd you hear it would be monday?

Maybe not exactly Monday, the big blue post not too long ago mentioned they want this first week of raid data before they make their first tuning pass. So Monday/Reset.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/7...alance-update/

[jjbarea]

emerald dream dps sheet http://imgur.com/PfD7btp

arms dont seem that op anymore, barely above fury.

[Creatinebrah]

Maybe not exactly Monday, the big blue post not too long ago mentioned they want this first week of raid data before they make their first tuning pass. So Monday/Reset.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/7...alance-update/

thanks friend

[globezorz]

Actual results from actual logs from an actual raid. Why do we need nerfed?

[Saiona]

damn. that ST damage from warriors is insane. seems like they're too ahead of other classes. expect a nerf?

Saw a friends guilds logs where they all used old war pots and it was doing like 7-10 million dps. their fury warriors it was 15% of their total damage. If we used them last night for 19 dps it would have costs us 186k gold and thats 1 shotting every boss. I know this is the arms discussion but we cant afford them and its buttfucking my logs

[Artunias]

Actual results from actual logs from an actual raid. Why do we need nerfed?

That's not the way it works. Arms has only one thing it does well, but the single target capabilities of the spec are far too good. It also has weaknesses that could be buffed, but they aren't going to let a spec dominate single target damage like Arms currently is.

Additionally, Arms certainly has a decent skillcap. The 90th percentile graph tells a bit of a different story. And that's still averaging all bosses, which are hardly all single target. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#dataset=90

And then you have the single target boss: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=1841

Arms is also not even remotely balanced with the legendary gloves, and then you add the t19 set bonuses. It's going to get nerfed, better accept it now.

[cFortyfive]

Actual results from actual logs from an actual raid. Why do we need nerfed?

Because it's the warrior class. If I had to guess I'd say there will be some buff to aoe from absurd dogshit to slightly less absurd dogshit and a nice single target nerf.

[Hashcrypt]

That's not the way it works. Arms has only one thing it does well, but the single target capabilities of the spec are far too good. It also has weaknesses that could be buffed, but they aren't going to let a spec dominate single target damage like Arms currently is.

Additionally, Arms certainly has a decent skillcap. The 90th percentile graph tells a bit of a different story. And that's still averaging all bosses, which are hardly all single target. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#dataset=90

And then you have the single target boss: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=1841

Arms is also not even remotely balanced with the legendary gloves, and then you add the t19 set bonuses. It's going to get nerfed, better accept it now.

So then what's the point of having a one dimensional spec if it can't excel in that one area?

Also who care about the 99th percentile? That percentage of players is a non sequitur. As shown when you see the 75 percentile, a much more useable number, the numbers are fine.

So maybe on the very few single target encounters, Arms will trounce people. But literally every other situation, Arms will be balanced just fine.

I for one would love to see damage stay the same, but have it move into and OvP and OpS build, which is far more interesting and enjoyable to play.

[Hoeth]

Blizzard doesn't like it when plate DPS are exceptionally good at anything. If any of the specs are beating wizards in any aspect, expect a nerf.

[Bigbazz]

That's not the way it works. Arms has only one thing it does well, but the single target capabilities of the spec are far too good. It also has weaknesses that could be buffed, but they aren't going to let a spec dominate single target damage like Arms currently is.

Additionally, Arms certainly has a decent skillcap. The 90th percentile graph tells a bit of a different story. And that's still averaging all bosses, which are hardly all single target. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#dataset=90

And then you have the single target boss: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=1841

Arms is also not even remotely balanced with the legendary gloves, and then you add the t19 set bonuses. It's going to get nerfed, better accept it now.

Seems silly to say Arms" has only one thing it does well" and then say it needs a nerfs because it does that better than others.. Arms is pretty junk at anything other than training the boss, and gets royally assraped in Emerald Nightmare outside of single target RNG glory runs, effective on 2 bosses. The logs are not loyal at the moment anyway, since consumables for a raid costs more than a months subscription in gold there was massive differences in tryhardness, and the 110 potions while extortionately expensive are also in a different league, we don't have enough logs to even out the data yet.

Starting to not like Arms after tonight, got assraped so hard on one pull and it was a comparison of 11 tactition procs vs 28. It actually feels if you don't chain proc during the pull that you're just gimped, I got bumchummed on damage in general being behind on gear (869 weap, 835 world quest stat stick trinkets), not from lack of effort.

I haven't looked at my logs for tonight, and I don't want to as it was a disaster, 5/7 Hc cleared.

[Artunias]

I think people are underestimating just how good arms can be, and how much more insane it can be. I think Arms absolutely could be the best single target spec. It just can't be beating the middle pack by 90k lol. If you take out the other high single target outliers, it's still 50-60k or so above the best of the "normal specs". That's simply too much.

And that's not even factoring in Legendary gloves. Or the ring on top of that. and then t19 set bonuses. There's just no way it doesn't get toned down.

[noctred]

I think people are underestimating just how good arms can be, and how much more insane it can be. I think Arms absolutely could be the best single target spec. It just can't be beating the middle pack by 90k lol. If you take out the other high single target outliers, it's still 50-60k or so above the best of the "normal specs". That's simply too much.

And that's not even factoring in Legendary gloves. Or the ring on top of that. and then t19 set bonuses. There's just no way it doesn't get toned down.

You have literally one day of raid data with half of the population chugging old war pots for maximum epeen and the other half not wanting to spend 40k a night on normal/heroic content. The disparity between parses is pretty laughable at the moment.

If anything, old war pots should probably be toned down so they aren't doing 20% of a player's total damage before nerfing actual classes. As for FR arms, the top parses are most likely perfect RNG streaks and that's probably what we will continue to see in the 90th+ percentile. The spec is just poorly designed from the ground up - the RNG really needs to be smoothed out before they nerf anything else about the spec, but that's unlikely to ever happen so... yeah.

[Tellof]

I think people are underestimating just how good arms can be, and how much more insane it can be. I think Arms absolutely could be the best single target spec. It just can't be beating the middle pack by 90k lol. If you take out the other high single target outliers, it's still 50-60k or so above the best of the "normal specs". That's simply too much.

And that's not even factoring in Legendary gloves. Or the ring on top of that. and then t19 set bonuses. There's just no way it doesn't get toned down.

Talking about the strength of a talent in the context of a legendary isn't really fair. Blizzard needs to balance talents among their respective tiers, not based on what a legendary will do to it. They can always adjust the legendary itself, as they should.

[Bigbazz]

I think people are underestimating just how good arms can be, and how much more insane it can be. I think Arms absolutely could be the best single target spec. It just can't be beating the middle pack by 90k lol. If you take out the other high single target outliers, it's still 50-60k or so above the best of the "normal specs". That's simply too much.

And that's not even factoring in Legendary gloves. Or the ring on top of that. and then t19 set bonuses. There's just no way it doesn't get toned down.

"Can" and "could" is not the same as "is" though, if you get super lucky with Legendaries/relics/trinkets I'm sure it's pretty silly strong, but then our Hunter got his 3rd Legendary on Nythendra, a boss he came top dps on while prior to the raid Hunters (not ours specifically) were crying about being weak... It's all relative to gear, to the fight style, to RNG..

Real scenarios will play out and if things get out of hand later on with Arms then Blizzard can nerf it, but by no means can it remotely be taken from current data that Arms is anywhere near overpowered, because of how niche it's ability is.. Not to mention how RNG it is, if you need to focus target an add spawn and you have no CS then you don't do any dps at all, making it unreliable for those kinda jobs.

It's like of all the PVE applications Arms has a very narrow window where it dominates. I had a fuckload of Arms tonight, felt like I'd rather play my Outlaw Rogue because of how fucked I repeatedly got on tactition procs or lack of crits, a string of non crits in your CS windows and your damage is nowhere. One of my best buddies managed to RNG his way to hilarity, I think all I managed was to dig myself into the shitters.

[Archimtiros]

Actual results from actual logs from an actual raid. Why do we need nerfed?

That's not the way it works. Arms has only one thing it does well, but the single target capabilities of the spec are far too good. It also has weaknesses that could be buffed, but they aren't going to let a spec dominate single target damage like Arms currently is.

Additionally, Arms certainly has a decent skillcap. The 90th percentile graph tells a bit of a different story. And that's still averaging all bosses, which are hardly all single target. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#dataset=90

And then you have the single target boss: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=1841

Arms is also not even remotely balanced with the legendary gloves, and then you add the t19 set bonuses. It's going to get nerfed, better accept it now.

It's also looking at score, not DPS. Switch even that first graph to DPS view and you see a much more exaggerated difference.

- - - Updated - - -

Talking about the strength of a talent in the context of a legendary isn't really fair. Blizzard needs to balance talents among their respective tiers, not based on what a legendary will do to it. They can always adjust the legendary itself, as they should.

Well both are incredibly overpowered so I think it is fair. At the same time, nerfing the shit of a legendary that is only "ok" without a specific talent is also a poor way to handle the issue.

[Rorke]

Easiest way to fix Arms is to buff Mortal Strikes damage by 15% while nerfing FR to 25%. That makes mortal combo more appealing where you can spec it with Sweeping Strikes for better cleave. Overpower could use a slight buff too so you can swap out Sweeping Strikes for it while still running Mortal Combo. That way the single target damage isn't complete ass.

I also love watching Bigbazz damage control his favorite overpowered spec. He's actually comparing Arms to another overpowered spec which is Outlaw and using it to justify Arms current position.

And lol, I'm laughing at how low Frost DK is. Garbage spec apart of an overall garbage class.

[Ezymode]

I agree that single target will be nerfed but there also needs to be a considerable buff to our AoE. Right now the top ranked arms warriors on wowlogs are still using the FR build in heavy AoE encounters like Il'gnoth (Yes there are priority adds to single target, but lets face it, everyone basically rounds up the oozes and goes AoE ham). Obviously thats not the intended design to make 1 build best for all situations. I just hope they dont nerf FR into the ground without any other compensation or we will be left with below average single target and AoE. In saying that, I do expect FR to be nerfed heavily because thats easier than tuning multiple AoE abilities up, and by doing this it will also make the standard arms build appear better for AoE. Plus many people are voicing their hate for FR builds so they can pretty much nerf it guilt free. I would love them to leave it untouched and let us have our single target / priority add burst niche, but its just not going to happen.

[Kelato]

I agree that single target will be nerfed but there also needs to be a considerable buff to our AoE. Right now the top ranked arms warriors on wowlogs are still using the FR build in heavy AoE encounters like Il'gnoth (Yes there are priority adds to single target, but lets face it, everyone basically rounds up the oozes and goes AoE ham). Obviously thats not the intended design to make 1 build best for all situations. I just hope they dont nerf FR into the ground without any other compensation or we will be left with below average single target and AoE. In saying that, I do expect FR to be nerfed heavily because thats easier than tuning multiple AoE abilities up, and by doing this it will also make the standard arms build appear better for AoE. Plus many people are voicing their hate for FR builds so they can pretty much nerf it guilt free. I would love them to leave it untouched and let us have our single target / priority add burst niche, but its just not going to happen.

This. We are going to see a heavy nerf to our ST ability while getting some slight buff to AoE leaving the spec pretty useless in PVE.

[Archimtiros]

I agree that single target will be nerfed but there also needs to be a considerable buff to our AoE. Right now the top ranked arms warriors on wowlogs are still using the FR build in heavy AoE encounters like Il'gnoth (Yes there are priority adds to single target, but lets face it, everyone basically rounds up the oozes and goes AoE ham). Obviously thats not the intended design to make 1 build best for all situations. I just hope they dont nerf FR into the ground without any other compensation or we will be left with below average single target and AoE. In saying that, I do expect FR to be nerfed heavily because thats easier than tuning multiple AoE abilities up, and by doing this it will also make the standard arms build appear better for AoE. Plus many people are voicing their hate for FR builds so they can pretty much nerf it guilt free. I would love them to leave it untouched and let us have our single target / priority add burst niche, but its just not going to happen.

Il'gnoth isn't as "heavy AoE" as you'd think, in fact it's detrimental on Mythic.

The only reason it's "heavy AoE" right now is because people are bombsplat padding the bloods when they shouldn't be. The tentacles tend to spawn in pairs which works perfectly with Arms sweeping strikes (the big ones may be out of range, but in my experience the small ones tend to clump), and Arms can do quite well against them.

Again, Arms Warbreaker+Bladestorm combo is no slouch for those few times Arms has to deal with many targets, but that's pretty rare in EN and only intermittent in NH.

You'll keep in mind that Fury isn't exactly the god of MT that WW Monks/Fire Mages are either.