EpiPen..... nobody beileves this, do they?

[JohnBrown1917]

Why don't you actually refute something he said? Most of the press against him was bias as fuck because it it made money.

Why do I need to refute anything he said? I just think he is a giant scumbag for rising the price on live saving drugs.

[Felya]

Being treated at the hospital vs going to the ER in an ambulance is a vastly different cost.

So is using an epipen vs going to ER, yet he made the argument.

It's actually not nonsense. If you end up getting a room, I guarantee you'll pay upwards of 10-20k. If we're talking about the US anyway.

It is nonsense... Why is the alternative emergency rooms and not a syringe? Emergency rooms and epipen are very different events. Using a syringe instead of an epipen is not. You know why the argument is not made? Because they are much cheaper, but are harder to use and are more volatile. His argument is litteraly, at least it doesn't cost 20000... Well, guess what, why isn't it 25 like a syringe?

This is the problem with the world today. How the fuck can you know if you don't even listen to him? Why don't you believe him? Because of what someone else said?

No, because this is his MO... This isn't something new...

Why don't you actually refute something he said? Most of the press against him was bias as fuck because it it made money.

Well, I have... You chose to respond to someone who doesn't... Why is that his fault and not yours?

[GarlicGuy]

Being treated at the hospital vs going to the ER in an ambulance is a vastly different cost.



It's actually not nonsense. If you end up getting a room, I guarantee you'll pay upwards of 10-20k. If we're talking about the US anyway.



This is the problem with the world today. How the fuck can you know if you don't even listen to him? Why don't you believe him? Because of what someone else said?



Why don't you actually refute something he said? Most of the press against him was bias as fuck because it it made money.

Because he has shown himself to be a scumbag liar. Who believes scumbag liars?

[Paula Deen]

I feel like I need to come back here and state I think Martin is crazy, and I think he is an asshole. I still think what he said in the video I linked is mostly correct.

[anyaka21]

So is using an epipen vs going to ER, yet he made the argument.



It is nonsense... Why is the alternative emergency rooms and not a syringe? Emergency rooms and epipen are very different events. Using a syringe instead of an epipen is not. You know why the argument is not made? Because they are much cheaper, but are harder to use and are more volatile. His argument is litteraly, at least it doesn't cost 20000... Well, guess what, why isn't it 25 like a syringe?



No, because this is his MO... This isn't something new...



Well, I have... You chose to respond to someone who doesn't... Why is that his fault and not yours?

His point on the video is that they are justifying an he agrees with it is because:

a) the company doesn't make a lot of money, thus raising the price is justified because they need to make money.
b) that an epipen is cheaper than going to the er. This part of his argument is weak because he doesn't know the price of an ER visit because he started at 5k and ended at 20k. He doesn't know the drug.
c) part of his argument is that he is saying that an insurance company would be glad to foot the bill for an epipen, just justifying the cost. Showing he doesn't know insurance companies
d) Another incredibly weak part of his argument is his point about higher priced drugs that make money make other companies incentivized to make a new and better alternative. Like is multiple-sclerosis example. However, he mentioned that the company that is selling the epipen is a generic company and as thus they don't make new medicines, they take what's there and make it and charge less for it. EpiPen basically becoming an insanely high priced exception, esp when you need to consider that they are supposed to be replaced every year whether they are used or not.
e) based on the generic nature of this company and the cost of the epipen, then this makes it a pure money grab by them because they can.

And while this company can cook the books however they like, what it's shown and needs and needed to be shown is what the cost breakdown was pre-price increases and what it was post increases. And I'd pretty much guarantee that amount increases go directly to executive salaries.

[Super Kami Dende]

Imo all Medicine should be legal to copy. If a company can make a product that does the same thing and sells it for 500% less, then they should be allowed to.

[Annoying]

Imo all Medicine should be legal to copy. If a company can make a product that does the same thing and sells it for 500% less, then they should be allowed to.

Why would anyone spend billions researching anything if they could just wait for someone else to make it first, and then copy it? No new medicine would be developed without protections.

[Wyattbw09]

Imo all Medicine should be legal to copy. If a company can make a product that does the same thing and sells it for 500% less, then they should be allowed to.

This is a top three terrible idea.

That being said, when you produce a life saving medicine or treatment AND you have a monopoly over the drug or treatment, you need to understand that you have a social responsibility to make the treatment affordable and available to those who's life depends on getting that treatment.

A free market depends on one side being able to say no thank you. When it comes to medical treatments and drugs the customer often does not have that option without forfeiting the life of themselves or their children.

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So is using an epipen vs going to ER, yet he made the argument.

Just for clarity, there is no vs. here. ALL the epi-pen does is increase the likelihood you won't DIE while you wait for the ambulance. If you have to use your epi-pen you ARE ALSO going to the ER.

[The Stormbringer]

This is a top three terrible idea.

That being said, when you produce a life saving medicine or treatment AND you have a monopoly over the drug or treatment, you need to understand that you have a social responsibility to make the treatment affordable and available to those who's life depends on getting that treatment.

A free market depends on one side being able to say no thank you. When it comes to medical treatments and drugs the customer often does not have that option without forfeiting the life of themselves or their children.

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Just for clarity, there is no vs. here. ALL the epi-pen does is increase the likelihood you won't DIE while you wait for the ambulance. If you have to use your epi-pen you ARE ALSO going to the ER.

>giant profit-obsessed morally challenged corporations
>social responsibility

LOL!

[anyaka21]

Why would anyone spend billions researching anything if they could just wait for someone else to make it first, and then copy it? No new medicine would be developed without protections.

thats not necessarily true. A ton of the cost is fda approval costing them half a billion. Thus a ton of cost could easily be regulated down to a lot less. Further, compounding the problem is that since big pharmaceutical also has the governments ear, the research done outside the US, and the strides that they've made in medical breakthroughs and technology can easily be manipulated and not allowed into the US even though it is effective and good because other drug companies don't want the competition.

Further, as implied, it doesn't really take that much, and also pointing out that companies outside the US can and do make groundbreaking discoveries and research without said billions. Thus it's a complete fallacy that no new medicine would be developed.

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This is a top three terrible idea.

That being said, when you produce a life saving medicine or treatment AND you have a monopoly over the drug or treatment, you need to understand that you have a social responsibility to make the treatment affordable and available to those who's life depends on getting that treatment.

A free market depends on one side being able to say no thank you. When it comes to medical treatments and drugs the customer often does not have that option without forfeiting the life of themselves or their children.

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Just for clarity, there is no vs. here. ALL the epi-pen does is increase the likelihood you won't DIE while you wait for the ambulance. If you have to use your epi-pen you ARE ALSO going to the ER.

That last statement is completely false, at least for most people. Having an acute allergic reaction that can cause someone's lungs to close up and stop them from breathing, an epipen helps to force that open. And once the danger period of said reaction is over, then there is zero need to go to the emergency room.

Further, there are other ways to prevent this. If you have an emergency inhaler, for example, and though not recommended, basically using it every couple of minutes to keep your lungs open, also works. And after said danger zone period is over, then you are clear.

This is especially true with food based allergic reactions. At least all of this has been true for me and others. I can't speak for bee stings, but I would imagine the same holds relatively true.

[medievalman1]

Giving yourself a shot of Bydureon while presumably not experiencing a diabetic crises is not analogous to having to administer epinephrine intravenously while going into anaphylactic shock, as you hopefully know already...

Just a point of clarification, epinephrine isn't generally given intravenously, its usually given intramuscular.

[Wyattbw09]

That last statement is completely false, at least for most people. Having an acute allergic reaction that can cause someone's lungs to close up and stop them from breathing, an epipen helps to force that open. And once the danger period of said reaction is over, then there is zero need to go to the emergency room.

I've never had any allergist recommend that. If you are using a epi-pen over say oral medication, I've never heard a an allergist say if you are having such a severe reaction that you need to use your epi-pen that the epi-pen by itself is sufficient.

[Celista]

Just a point of clarification, epinephrine isn't generally given intravenously, its usually given intramuscular.

Ah okay. Duly corrected.

[anyaka21]

I've never had any allergist recommend that. If you are using a epi-pen over say oral medication, I've never heard a an allergist say if you are having such a severe reaction that you need to use your epi-pen that the epi-pen by itself is sufficient.

And they won't, but if you are having an allergic reaction, you do what you need to do. My allergies are mainly food based, specifically peanut mainly, and the only reaction I've had in basically the last 20 years was accidently drinking out of someone elses cup that I thought was mine. Turned out it was a peanut butter frap, and not my carmel frap. Looked exactly alike.

I used my inhaler to keep my lungs open while I puked my guts out for an hour. I guess that's the beauty of food bourne allergies is that you puke your guts out and get rid of the poison that's in your body, thus reducing what makes it into your bloodstream.

With that said too, how many allergists/asthma specialists have ever recommended that you take 5000iu's of vitamin d daily either. I've been taking that for 2+ years now and my asthma is doing better than it ever did under the medication a specialist prescribed me.

[breadisfunny]

I prefer TMZ and buzzfeed.

psh 4chan is where i get all my news info.

[Orlong]

As someone who has several life-threatening allergies, I can't fathom how people can survive in the US. I live in Canada, so for me it cost roughly CA 150$/epipen. There is NO WAY in hell that the price in the US is right. At all.

This is a disgusting lie made by someone who wants to cash in. Simple as that.

Nobody pays that price anyway. Insurance covers most of it. And since its a law that you must have insurance now, nobody should be complaining. I have a prescription for Nuvigil, and every time I go to CVS for a refill (90 pills) The cost is $1350.00, but I only pay $15 of it. Insurance picks up the rest.

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So, this is how corporations work. Obviously, I don't have the inside view of their particular costs, but here is how it typically works out.

$600 is the list price for pen. Most people don't pay this, but a few do (bonus for them).

$300 is what they typically charge. This is after rebates and price negotiations with insurance carriers.

$200 is about what they will get at the end of the day after fees, etc.

Now, as for "costs". The costs of the medicine is under $1. The costs of the pen itself is no more than a couple of dollars. Those are the material costs.

So, how do they get down to $50? That is because of "other costs" which are, basically, the money they pay out to their staff, executives, and sales force. The staff may accounts for $10 per pen or so. The rest of the roughly $135 dollars goes to executive salaries and benefits, and sales salaries and benefits (e.g. bonuses). The $50 is on the balance sheet as profit...which is enough to keep their stock price elevated so that the free (or heavily discounted stock) that the executives get as an additional bonus is worth something to them as well.

If you exclude sales and executive compensation, you see that they are easily making more than $150 (probably close to $200) per unit. This is common across most corporations.

Dont forget about marketing costs and kickbacks to doctors who prescribe it

[breadisfunny]

Nobody pays that price anyway. Insurance covers most of it. And since its a law that you must have insurance now, nobody should be complaining

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Dont forget about marketing costs and kickbacks to doctors who prescribe it

yeah all those people who can't afford the mandatory insurance because their state governors refuse to accept expanded medicaid are just babies and need to work harder.

[anyaka21]

yeah all those people who can't afford the mandatory insurance because their state governors refuse to accept expanded medicaid are just babies and need to work harder.

I would further add that in terms of who you responded too, prescription costs completely vary within different ehalth plans. Thus just because you have health insurance does not mean that a $600 epipens cost to the consumer is only $15. Some insurance companies might not even cover it because it's not necessarily mandatory or only cover 20%. Some you even have to pay full price for, only to have the insurance company reimburse you for what they deem appropriate.

[Lenonis]

There is a lot of problems when you start talking about the profitability of a drug for a whole number of reason.

Direct costs are easy enough to sort out -- cost of materials, labor, containers, etc. You can probably estimate a certain level of costs for sales, marketing, distribution...however it's all likely just split out among a portfolio of products, especially when you then add administrative and overhead costs, and costs related to fines, fees, licenses, registration maintenance, etc. etc.

And then on top of that you have to expect a certain level of profitability from the on-market products in order to support R&D work in the pipeline of new products -- an expensive venture that fails as often as it succeeds.

As long as you have a for-profit drug industry that is also responsible for drug development you will continue to see really strange pricing scenarios.

It would be nice if drug research went back into universities and hospitals and drug companies were more of the commercialization arm rather than doing the drug development. That would probably get prices more stable -- of course then the government and other private ventures would have to pick up the tab of the drug development costs.

[derpkitteh]

I mean, he states facts. If you don't believe facts because someone you don't like says them, that is pretty bad.

it's facts created by falsehood.

the government should take hold of things like this, things vital to survival, and force companies to become part of the government and pass out the pen at free or negligible cost.