Day1 of raid - "know the fights" required

[alemap]

This really isn't complicated. It is not unreasonable for people to assume that people will have a very basic understanding of the general aspects of the fight. Blizzard put the dungeon journal in game for that exact purpose. You don't even need to do any real research in advance since the dungeon journal is nice enough to give you 3 or 4 key points for your role (tank/healer/dps). It takes all of 10 seconds to open the journal and read those key points and you don't even need to leave game. So it is 100% perfectly reasonable to expect people to do that basic minimum amount of preparation. It's no different then "make sure you know the spells in your spell book and the basics about how to play your class." For everyone making silly comparisons to reading strategy guides, the better comparison is to instruction booklets. When I bought the original zelda it came with an instruction booklet, I read it, and then I was better prepared to play the game.

If you want to go into a dungeon completely blind without knowing what to do at all, that is completely fine but its not reasonable to expect other people to carry you while you do that. Make your own group and specify in the description that you are looking for people that want a casual run where they learn from trial and error. Based on the amount of people in this thread saying that's how the game should be played, it should fill fast.

On the other hand, it is completely unreasonable to expect people to know every mechanic so well that there won't be a single death or wipe on day 1. That's a ridiculous position to take and any raid leader that makes such a requirement on day 1 is just looking for a carry. This game wouldn't be remotely challenging or fun if it was possible to play without even the possibility of failure. There will be wipes on week 1. Period.

So its really just a matter of what "know the fights" means. Lots of people here are interpreting that phrase in what manner seems most offensive to them and then they are getting mad at that interpretation.

[lazorexplosion]

It really does make me laugh. The amount of LFR hate on this forum and then it turns out...

Day fucking 1 of the raid you want to walk in, not explain anything to anybody and kill all the bosses without wiping ("wipes are a waste of time").

lmao

[Fallen Angel]

Your comparisons are awful. Monopoly and Risk, at least in their traditional versions, are meant to only be played one way while raiding isn't. Yeah it is played one way in the most basic sense that you need to have a tank(s) hold aggro, dps deal damage, and healers heal, but there is just no single strategy when raiding that will cause failure if you deviate in any way. You have obviously never read any interviews with world first guilds otherwise you would quickly discover that *gasp* they had no youtube guides & they were the ones providing the first beta/ptr feedback. Heroic/mythic raiding is a mix of intuition, countless trial and error, and strategy building all in one. Pretty much all strats are formed after feeling out attempts so I see no problem in other casual and/or hardcore raiders doing the same.

#ignorantplayersoblivioustotheraidingprocessinbeta

Just because they don't have videos to watch about the encounter doesn't mean they are going into it blind either. I'm fairly certain a lot of guilds require beta/ptr testing so they can begin to flesh out strategies come live release. Is that not pretty much studying up on a fight via video/journal?

- - - Updated - - -

It really does make me laugh. The amount of LFR hate on this forum and then it turns out...

Day fucking 1 of the raid you want to walk in, not explain anything to anybody and kill all the bosses without wiping ("wipes are a waste of time").

lmao

Unnecessary wipes due to someone not knowing fight mechanics when it is requested by the group is a waste of time. I don't think anyone here honestly believes wipes will never happen. That's an absurd thing to expect.

[lazorexplosion]

Or you could just talk about the raid mechanics in your PUG raid BUT FUCK THAT THE CLOSER WE GET TO EVERY GROUP ACTIVITY BEING CONDUCTED IN DEAD SILENCE THE BETTER AM I RIGHT

[Fyersing]

Are you trying to say that reading a guide to play a game is less lazy than trying to play a game yourself? Also the vast majority of people didn't purchase strategy guides and only had the info from the booklets that came with the game which typically only had the button layout and maybe a few other things.

No, I'm saying that people have been looking up how to do things in video games for 22+ years. It's not a "new behavior", nor is someone asking you to read about how a fight works somehow evidence of "a bad community"; at least, no more than requiring that prospective police officers know the basics of the law or ensuring that would-be firefighters know how to turn on a hose.

In all aspects of life, fundamentally, you are expected to know as much as possible about whatever it is you're trying to achieve, before you do it. You'll obviously get better at whatever that thing is by experiencing it firsthand, but you're still expected to know what to do beforehand.

Your comparisons are awful. Monopoly and Risk, at least in their traditional versions, are meant to only be played one way while raiding isn't. Yeah it is played one way in the most basic sense that you need to have a tank(s) hold aggro, dps deal damage, and healers heal, but there is just no single strategy when raiding that will cause failure if you deviate in any way. You have obviously never read any interviews with world first guilds otherwise you would quickly discover that *gasp* they had no youtube guides & they were the ones providing the first beta/ptr feedback after countless wipes brought about by feeling the encounters and mechanics out. Heroic/mythic raiding for new content is a mix of intuition, countless trial and error, and strategy building all in one. Pretty much all strats are formed after feeling out attempts so I see no problem in other casual and/or hardcore raiders doing the same.

#ignorantplayersoblivioustotheraidingprocessinbeta

Except, this isn't what people are arguing in this thread.

They're arguing that they shouldn't be expected to read information that is readily, readily, available to them. That's completely irrelevant to how that information was originally obtained.

I wasn't personally involved in the discovery that a person can die from drinking too much water, but that information was made available to me and I utilize it (by not drinking water in excess). What these people are asking for is immunity from criticism when they fail to use all the tools available to them to improve their own situation(s). I refuse to give them that.

Lazy is as lazy does.

[Pantalaimon]

Just because they don't have videos to watch about the encounter doesn't mean they are going into it blind either. I'm fairly certain a lot of guilds require beta/ptr testing so they can begin to flesh out strategies come live release. Is that not pretty much studying up on a fight via video/journal?

For those groups/guilds that would require it yes, but there are also groups/guilds that do approach progression raiding with a true blind approach that don't look up guides, videos, comments, or delve into beta/ptr. The world first raiders I mentioned often go into the raids on beta completely blind. They deal with the bugs, the mechanics that will eventually hit live, and form the strategies with no previous reference point.

[clevin]

Is knowing the rules of the road and studying your route before you drive it useless because it isn't "experiencing" the drive?

Is driving not a consensual collective activity as well where everyone else's actions impinge upon each other's enjoyment and survival?

Are you the kind of "person" to disregard others there too?

Try not to be an idiot. You cannot know the fights in any depth in week 1. Period. The rest of your post is meaningless bullshit.

[Fallen Angel]

For those groups/guilds that would require it yes, but there are also groups/guilds that do approach progression raiding with a true blind approach that don't look up guides, videos, comments, or delve into beta/ptr. The world first raiders I mentioned often go into the raids on beta completely blind. They deal with the bugs, the mechanics that will eventually live, and form the strategies with no previous reference point.

And I'm saying beta does not matter so it's just a tool to study up on fights, much like watching a video.

OP said a number of pages back he doesn't pug so what pugs do shouldn't matter to him and if his guild requires it he should find a new guild that goes blind. That's the crux of the thread. If you don't like how someone operates their group, find another or make your own.

[clevin]

Except, this isn't what people are arguing in this thread.

They're arguing that they shouldn't be expected to read information that is readily, readily, available to them. That's completely irrelevant to how that information was originally obtained.

I wasn't personally involved in the discovery that a person can die from drinking too much water, but that information was made available to me and I utilize it (by not drinking water in excess). What these people are asking for is immunity from criticism when they fail to use all the tools available to them to improve their own situation(s). I refuse to give them that.

No we're not. Or at least I'm not. My point's simple - you can read the journal, even watch strategy videos from beta. But that's not really knowing the fight. Knowing the fight is really knowing, almost intuitively, when it's time to do something (pop a CD, collapse on the tanks, whatever). You ONLY get that via experience and you can't get experience except by doing the raid. MOST people were not in beta and if they were it's VERY unlikely they were with their current raid team.

Fucking hell, people, RELAX. It's week 1 of the raid. I can just see it now... you stomp through, clear it all farm for a few resets themn come here to bitch that there's no content.

[Pantalaimon]

Except, this isn't what people are arguing in this thread.

They're arguing that they shouldn't be expected to read information that is readily, readily, available to them. That's completely irrelevant to how that information was originally obtained.

I wasn't personally involved in the discovery that a person can die from drinking too much water, but that information was made available to me and I utilize it (by not drinking water in excess). What these people are asking for is immunity from criticism when they fail to use all the tools available to them to improve their own situation(s). I refuse to give them that.

Lazy is as lazy does.

But you're missing the glaring point that other posters than just me have brought up. They don't take personal fun out of raiding by having someone else tell them the 'correct' way to do every single encounter. They like thinking on their feet the first many attempts in and gradually respond with effective strats that THEY came to the conclusion of.

It isn't about laziness for everyone. TONS of people don't like looking up guides for single player games so should you be surprised that an MMORPG with scores of people who like single player games outside of WoW would sometimes want to group with like minded people by not looking up guides for their multiplayer game? I'm fine with these types of players not being justified in forcing every player who does look up guides to play without them, but it is an ignorant and naive perspective to take to make mass assumptions that if someone doesn't read a fight then it absolutely must be due to laziness.

[Dch48]

My guild did the new raid last night. I had read up on the first couple of bosses but it seemed like the raid leaders had not. They had no idea what the mechanics would be until we saw them happen. We did down the first boss on the third attempt though so it wasn't bad. The second boss we tried was Ursoc and the tanks had no idea what was going to happen and kept getting annihilated. One of them then asked in chat what DBM was. He really had never used it and had to install it. They still couldn't get the hang of it and the raid ended with just the one boss killed.

Personally, I have never found videos and write-ups to be very helpful. You just get a basic idea and the only real way to learn the fight is to do it. Therefore I will agree somewhat that a requirement to "know the fights" on the first day a raid is open is a little ridiculous.

Having seen the first bosses and going to see more on Saturday, I'm curious to see how different it will be in LFR which is where I have spent 90% of my raiding time in the last 2 expansions before this one. I will be in there when it opens next week.

[lazorexplosion]

They don't have time to talk to their pugs about how to handle mechanics or struggle with anything, they have to get through it as quickly as possible so they can get back here to continue bitching about how WoW is too easy and too unsocial.

[Pantalaimon]

They don't have time to talk to their pugs about how to handle mechanics or struggle with anything, they have to get through it as quickly as possible so they can get back here to continue bitching about how WoW is too easy and too unsocial.

You forgot about them having to zerg through new raids because "Zomg gotta be top 5-10 on realm by clearing it first" and then complaining the raids weren't lasting and how there is no content.

[lazorexplosion]

Also, "on farm" means your guild group has done this raid multiple times before and can do it effortlessly now because you've done it together multiple times together before.

If you go into a PUG expecting an on farm experience from a group of people who have never been grouped together before you're a dumbass no matter how far into the expansion it is. (If it's day 1 you're a colossal dumbass).

[ShiyoKozuki]

They don't have time to talk to their pugs about how to handle mechanics or struggle with anything, they have to get through it as quickly as possible so they can get back here to continue bitching about how WoW is too easy and too unsocial.

What my extremely autistic anti-social friend does is rush through all the content in 2 weeks by pugging then if any friends ask to play with him or for help he ignores them until he gets all the gear he wants, afks in his garrison and watches movies/tv shows never playing with anyone unless it benefits him.

[Berengil]

This thread is full of examples of the reasons I haven't touched current content above LFR since DS.

[lazorexplosion]

This thread is full of examples of the reasons I haven't touched current content above LFR since DS.

But have you considered that Blizzard should remove LFR because it's unsocial and nobody wipes in it?

sarcasm

[Olololo2r5]

i'd start a guild that prefers going in a raid blind for the first time. It seems a lot more fun, I guess people think other wise and consider "wiping" or that kind of challenge a waste of time. TO me that is just saying raiding is a waste of time. Whatever. 50% of WoW players are weird and only play for status and/or forget WoW is an RPG

[Otimus]

This thread is full of examples of the reasons I haven't touched current content above LFR since DS.

More or less this.

Like some things I said earlier:

I do want to point out, however, that other online games that aren't MMO's that have co-op also don't experience this problem either.

It's almost entirely an MMO mentality/problem, though you do get similar attitudes with MOBAs (but not quite the same, just similar attitudes.)

I think some people here are in massive denial about being addicted to a skinner box.


Some of you people, too, seem to think WoW is the hardest game of all time, too, or something, which it isn't. It's all about organization and who you know and what they allow you to do. I mean, the game doesn't even have AI.

Like, seriously. People are like totally oblivious to how asinine some of the things they are saying are. Like "so and so comparison to REAL LIFE thing. You horrible monster!" over and over. Is it any wonder why this genre is basically stuck with it's audience and not growing anymore?

[Argarock]

I'm gonna watch a walkthrough of zelda before I play it.

Zelda is not a multiplayer game where you're supposed to coordinate 20 people to kill a boss, it can take 4+ hours to kill if not most of the people in the raid knows what to do.