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  1. #1
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    Only one Archimonde? What?(Spoilers)

    From all the info I've gathered the Archimonde we fight in WoD is the same Archimonde that tried to hug the World Tree in WC3 which basically means demons can travel between alternate realities.


    Alright, but we have(had) two Velens. This other alternate Velen that sacrificed himself also ruled alongside an archie and a kil'jaeden in his AU. So where did those chums go... ?

  2. #2
    There is only one legion. They are part of the nether which transcends beyond realities/dimensions. They also dont die for good if we dont kill them in the nether/strong fel environment.

  3. #3
    Titan Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    If Archimonde transcends time and space that means the Archimonde we fought in the BC raid mount Hyjal was the same archimonde and not a past version of him. Therefore, he infinitely is caught in a timeloop where he attempts to destroy the world tree, then 12 years later is brought back to that exact moment, where he fails again.

    Unless that isn't the same archimonde, and is in fact a past version of him, then that means the bronzes are capable of creating infinite archimondes.

  4. #4
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    The nether transcends all realities, and because of that the demons do too.
    Velen aint a demon, velen appeared.

    Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk


    Formerly known as Arafal

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humbugged View Post
    If Archimonde transcends time and space that means the Archimonde we fought in the BC raid mount Hyjal was the same archimonde and not a past version of him. Therefore, he infinitely is caught in a timeloop where he attempts to destroy the world tree, then 12 years later is brought back to that exact moment, where he fails again.

    Unless that isn't the same archimonde, and is in fact a past version of him, then that means the bronzes are capable of creating infinite archimondes.
    I think you mixed up time travel with alternate realities.In BC we went back in time to make sure Archimonde is defeated.

  6. #6
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    There is 1 legion, but several clones of every demon, that's why we have 4 Gul'dans, and 3 Jaraxxuses for example. They are not aware of their clones and can not interact with each other directly, only indirectly like leaving notes to each other, or artifact's like with Gul'dan and Gul'dan, and Ner'zul.

  7. #7
    Try to think of it this way. Azeroth/Draenor are computer generated worlds that the entity known as Archimonde logs into. He can log in whenever as many times as his respawn will allow as often as it will allow it, unless you kill the entity who is logging in when it is logged out ,his "irl" which is known as the nether.

    Savvy?

    You can't kill the nerd's character, you have to kill the nerd himself.

  8. #8
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haajib View Post
    There is 1 legion, but several clones of every demon, that's why we have 4 Gul'dans, and 3 Jaraxxuses for example. They are not aware of their clones and can not interact with each other directly, only indirectly like leaving notes to each other, or artifact's like with Gul'dan and Gul'dan, and Ner'zul.
    except that this is complete bullshit.
    all demons are unique.
    gul'dan isnt even a demon, that's why there are more of him.
    there's only 1 jaraxxus.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Haajib View Post
    There is 1 legion, but several clones of every demon, that's why we have 4 Gul'dans, and 3 Jaraxxuses for example. They are not aware of their clones and can not interact with each other directly, only indirectly like leaving notes to each other, or artifact's like with Gul'dan and Gul'dan, and Ner'zul.
    There is only one Legion! But a demon is only killable in the twisted nether. If you kill a demon outside, his soul travels to the twisted nether and he is reborn. Everything else like Gul'dan can exist a hundret times.

  10. #10
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    My understanding of Archimonde's appearances works like this:

    Occurrence #1: The original fight and defeat at the World Tree at the apex of the Third War.
    Occurrence #2: We use the Caverns of Time to return to Hyjal in the past and fight him (for reasons unknown), but this occurrence essentially overlaps with #1.
    Occurrence #3: Archimonde of our current time (reconstituted in the Twisting Nether like any other demon) goes back in time, likely using the refocused Dark Portal umbilicus in the same manner we did, to confront us at Hellfire Citadel.

    WoD's Archimonde is the primary universe Archimonde from our current time, going back in time and into the alternative dimension of WoD, to assist Gul'dan and ensure the Legion's invasion of Azeroth (also in the primary universe) goes off without a hitch. Neither Archimonde nor Kil'jaeden care an iota for the AU version of Draenor, it was all just a hook to get Gul'dan back on their team and move him into a position to open the portal at the Tomb of Sargeras.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  11. #11
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Occurrence #2: We use the Caverns of Time to return to Hyjal in the past and fight him (for reasons unknown), but this occurrence essentially overlaps with #1.
    This was originally the intent as shown with the quests leading up to the Hyjal raid. However, all indications of this were dropped inside the raid itself. When asked about this, Blizzard said:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    It's a "time pocket" if you will. There's no intended link to the Infinite Dragonflight or their dastardly deeds of altered timeways, and you're not literally interacting with history. It's simply a way for players to experience some of the larger moments in Warcraft history, and admittedly the Mount Hyjal instance isn't really linked to the world for any rhyme or reason. The timeway presented itself, it's an amazing opportunity to be there and experience such a major event, and Archimonde drops phat purples. (Source)

    So with the WoD "reveal" that the Legion transcends all realities, I believe the Hyjal raid is to be taken as non-canonical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Occurrence #3: Archimonde of our current time (reconstituted in the Twisting Nether like any other demon) goes back in time, likely using the refocused Dark Portal umbilicus in the same manner we did, to confront us at Hellfire Citadel.

    WoD's Archimonde is the primary universe Archimonde from our current time, going back in time and into the alternative dimension of WoD, to assist Gul'dan and ensure the Legion's invasion of Azeroth (also in the primary universe) goes off without a hitch. Neither Archimonde nor Kil'jaeden care an iota for the AU version of Draenor, it was all just a hook to get Gul'dan back on their team and move him into a position to open the portal at the Tomb of Sargeras.
    The Legion was already present on AU Draenor before the Dark Portal was connected. Whatever means they have of time traveling isn't connected to it.

  12. #12
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Legion was already present on AU Draenor before the Dark Portal was connected. Whatever means they have of time traveling isn't connected to it.
    Is there a canon source to be had on that? I know Gul'dan was in some form of communion with the Legion prior to Kairoz and Garrosh arriving (but that could just be retroactive continuity playing out, assuming WoD's universe was spun up solely from Kairoz's intervention), and from the material I've seen Mannoroth seems to arrive at pretty much the same time a connection, via the Vision of Time, was also established.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  13. #13
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Is there a canon source to be had on that? I know Gul'dan was in some form of communion with the Legion prior to Kairoz and Garrosh arriving (but that could just be retroactive continuity playing out, assuming WoD's universe was spun up solely from Kairoz's intervention), and from the material I've seen Mannoroth seems to arrive at pretty much the same time a connection, via the Vision of Time, was also established.
    Well the Vision of Time only works if you're using the shards. That's how the DP connection was going to work; the shard Kairoz brought resonated with the other pieces in our universe/time. The WoD-verse was always in existence, Kairoz merely picked it out of the various timelines he visited (Hellscream).

    The reason why this is such a mess is because WoD was originally supposed to take place in a completely separate universe, with its own Legion acting out similarly to how they did in ours.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Question, with the Draenor we travel to in WoD. Is this Draenor connected to our Twisting nether, or an alternate one?
    Likely an entire separate universe, but we're not addressing it in the expansion. Focus is Draenor! (DaveKosak)

    This is why they changed Archimonde's dialogue in the [Burning Legion Missive] to make it more in line with his attitude in our universe during Rise of the Horde. And even when looking at both dialogues, it's clear that the WoD Legion is playing out things without any knowledge they would have if they were ours traveling into the past. They should already know exactly where the Draenei are.


    The change to one-Legion appears to be a later decision to make the end-tier fight with Archimonde more meaningful.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2016-09-22 at 05:37 PM.

  14. #14
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    The way I reconcile the multiple continuities/universe with a single Legion is by viewing the alternative universes as unrealized realities, of a sort. They exist and the contents of their worlds can be viewed after a fashion, but they don't have concrete or physical existence unless acted on by a being with sufficient power to realize them (e.g. the Bronze Dragonflight, the Titans, Kil'jaeden or Archimonde, and possibly certain powerful artifacts or relics imbued with comparable power). So, in the case of WoD, none of the individuals or entities present in that reality even had a past until Kairoz and co. made it so - at that point the connection between the two realities was made the reality came into existence complete with its own version of its history (including the contact with the one transcendent Legion). At that point the reality became physically accessible to both us and the Legion via our separate channels, or via the main channel that the Iron Horde had conveniently hooked up in the form of the Dark Portal.

    In this model of thinking, the Burning Legion Missive's dialogue would all just be an "echo" of the history that came into being along with the reality itself - just like Gul'dan's memories of contact with the Legion. But the physical Legion forces that appear on Draenor would've only done so when the channel had been opened - Mannoroth, the invading demons in Tanaan, and finally Archimonde himself are all the same entities they always were. This model allows for both WoD having its own history, but for the existence a single Legion and a primary timeline (as per the known lore of the Bronze Dragonflight).
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  15. #15
    Lots of confusion in this thread.

    It makes sense if you make a single lore assumption (one that most of the wow lore community has accepted for the most part).

    There are no infinite realities, only infinite possible realities.

    The multiverse exists only as probability, and don't actually tangibly exist until some sort of immense magical power wills it into existence.

    So in our example, Kairoz and Wrathion used the Hourglass of Time to scour the hypothetical timelines to find the one that was best suited for their agenda. Then they used the yearlong content drought's worth of players gathering Epoch Stones to power the Hourglass of Time, which I'm guessing was powerful enough to will the target reality into existence.

    Blizzard has said that there isn't an Alternate Azeroth as a consequence of the Alternate Draenor, so we can assume that the alternate pocket-universe only extends to Draenor.

    So from the Legion's perspective, an alternate Draenor suddenly popped into existence somewhere in the Twisting Nether. For some reason it is 35 years in the past, and is intrinsically linked to the primary Azeroth. It's a perfect backdoor for the Legion so they send Mannoroth, who was successful in corrupting the Orcs the first time, to corrupt them again.

  16. #16
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    I just like to pretend Draenor was dragged physically into our universe and Archi just picked up where his alternate universe self (Who ceased to exist the moment out timelines converged) left off.

  17. #17
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    So from the Legion's perspective, an alternate Draenor suddenly popped into existence somewhere in the Twisting Nether. For some reason it is 35 years in the past, and is intrinsically linked to the primary Azeroth. It's a perfect backdoor for the Legion so they send Mannoroth, who was successful in corrupting the Orcs the first time, to corrupt them again.
    It would have to be 35 years into the past so that the presumptive Iron Horde wouldn't be slaves to the Legion in that reality's version of its history, otherwise they probably wouldn't be suitable to put under Kairoz/Garrosh's thumb to become the Iron Horde. The connection to Azeroth would be necessary to be able to move them into the primary universe to content with the Legion there, because that is where the Legion would invade and could be confronted. The Legion needs only to use that version of Draenor's history to make sure the corruption of the Horde goes off as it should (and it did, for all intents and purposes, with just a few changes), accomplished by sending Mannoroth and Archimonde down to make it all go down.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  18. #18
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Blizzard has said that there isn't an Alternate Azeroth as a consequence of the Alternate Draenor, so we can assume that the alternate pocket-universe only extends to Draenor.
    Blizzard said the exact opposite...
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I still get the same question over and over again -- is there an alternate Azeroth to go with the alternate Draenor?
    Yes!
    Are we going to see it?
    I would never say never, but it's not planned right now.
    I'm kind of wondering what that place looks like. I imagine it's really interesting.
    Absolutely, and this is a precedent here, that there are alternate worlds across the multiverse. (Source)

    (Not just you and not just this instance, but I don't understand how people can be 100% opposite when claiming Blizzard said something.)

    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    So from the Legion's perspective, an alternate Draenor suddenly popped into existence somewhere in the Twisting Nether. For some reason it is 35 years in the past, and is intrinsically linked to the primary Azeroth. It's a perfect backdoor for the Legion so they send Mannoroth, who was successful in corrupting the Orcs the first time, to corrupt them again.
    Draenor isn't in the Twisting Nether. The Legion was already interacting with it prior to Kairoz showing up. It isn't intrinsically linked, the only way to connect then was through the DP and fiddling with the Vision of Time shard.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2016-09-22 at 05:59 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Lots of confusion in this thread.

    It makes sense if you make a single lore assumption (one that most of the wow lore community has accepted for the most part).

    There are no infinite realities, only infinite possible realities.

    The multiverse exists only as probability, and don't actually tangibly exist until some sort of immense magical power wills it into existence.

    So in our example, Kairoz and Wrathion used the Hourglass of Time to scour the hypothetical timelines to find the one that was best suited for their agenda. Then they used the yearlong content drought's worth of players gathering Epoch Stones to power the Hourglass of Time, which I'm guessing was powerful enough to will the target reality into existence.

    Blizzard has said that there isn't an Alternate Azeroth as a consequence of the Alternate Draenor, so we can assume that the alternate pocket-universe only extends to Draenor.

    So from the Legion's perspective, an alternate Draenor suddenly popped into existence somewhere in the Twisting Nether. For some reason it is 35 years in the past, and is intrinsically linked to the primary Azeroth. It's a perfect backdoor for the Legion so they send Mannoroth, who was successful in corrupting the Orcs the first time, to corrupt them again.
    i don't think i ever saw blizzard stating that there wasn't an Alternate Azeroth. i always tought that Titans were unique for all realities and the Alternate Azeroth existed but it wasn't a Titan World, just a regular world that's why Sargeras doesn't try to take over alternate azeroth instead.
    Also, most forms of life on Azeroth were created by Titans, unless they created that on alternate azeroths too, an Alternate Azeroth would have been pretty a Troll World? iirc they are the only race who aren't created by some action from the titans or azeroth(titan).

    The alternate Draenor was connected to alternate azeroth, so there's no use into trying to invade alternate draenor. But when Alternate Draenor connects with our Azeroth. Then it's an opportunity to use the Draenor forces to destroy azeroth(again, because if it didn't worked as a surprise attack, it will certainly work now. right?).
    Idk, i took a little too long thinking about all possibilities. but pretty much everything have some flaws. Time Travel is hard when you include Travelling between multiverses with creatures that exists outside of the multiverse. Then shit gets really crazy.
    Signature was infraaaaaaaaaacted. Need a new one!

  20. #20
    Blizzard confirmed this mid-way in Warlords of Draenor via a Tweet that went along the lines of "The Burning Legion transcends all realities."
    Last edited by RedNight at MMOC; 2016-09-22 at 06:44 PM.

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