[LEGION]: FROST Death Knight

[Tyrean]

I was thinking about it last night and I realized that there would have to be such huge buffs to frost that it is just not going to happen. The issue is simply that we have limited sources of damage. The reason frozen pulse is good for everything is because it gives use another source of damage. This is also why trinkets that add another damage source are so strong. Think about it, our damage sources are:

Strikes - 50% ish of our damage
Auto Attacks - 10% ish
Frost Fever - 5% ish
Stupid Swords at our sides - 8% ish
Frozen Pulse - 7% ish
Razor Ice - 3% ish

Then we make up the rest with sindragosa, trinkets, potions. So where are they going to buff? If they buff the strikes (frost strike, obliterate, howling blast) it will make DKs super top tier because of the burst damage it would create. Buff auto attacks? We would need something like a 300% increase to make up the difference.

Look at unholy as a comparison. Think about the pets, Ghoul, Skulker, Army, Gargoyle, etc. There are so many sources of damage that not a single one needs to be OP and hit hard for it all to add up to big numbers

Strikes - 28% ish
Auto Attacks- 10% ish
Pets - 28% ish
Plague and Festering Wounds - 18%ish (could argue festering wounds goes with strikes)
Death Coil - 6%
Shambler - 3%
Pots/trinkets/etc - $7%

So right now, I actually think that Frost simply has a major mechanical flaw because if you buff it up to do damage competitively then you risk making them so strong at burst to shadow everythign else. Think about your frost strike hitting for 300k instead of 120k. Think about how silly that would be in dungeons and world content and that is the kind of buff frost would need to function. Really, frost just needs more sources of damage.

Really all this does is expose just how poorly executed the frost artifact is. This is where we should be getting extra sources of damage. Instead, it is just buffing the small supply of sources we have currently.

[loanel]

Then we make up the rest with sindragosa, trinkets, potions. So where are they going to buff? If they buff the strikes (frost strike, obliterate, howling blast) it will make DKs super top tier because of the burst damage it would create. Buff auto attacks? We would need something like a 300% increase to make up the difference.

We are the slowest melee class in the game, we have only chains of ice as cc, we can only stun if we have a talent for it, we bring 0 raid utility. I really don't think that us having ONE FUCKING THING we are strong at would make us that op in PVE. Making it so critical rating somehow increases the damage of obliterate and make that damage scale with our mastery wouldn't make the burst op.

[Freedom]

I would have probably ran SS on Ursoc and 1st boss, but Having to hearth out to Runeforge is honestly one of the most stupid idea's every put in the game.(Meanin why put a talent requiring you to change them, when there isnt a portable toy or such).

What about this? Set hearth to somewhere close to EN before raid. Use garrison or Dalaran HS, Dalaran HS if you cannot use Death Gate in alt Draenor. Use Death Gate. Change runeforge, and talent at same time for free. Use HS that puts you back in Val'Sharah. Walk into raid instance. Do the same for going back to RI/FC for cleave, using 2xRI for any trash between bosses to while various HS come off CD.

(Is 2xRI and SS enough of a DPS increase on ST to justify the time used by this? I am not aiming for WF but my guild has limited raid time)

If this isn't your method, I will time myself using this method when I get a chance tonight. I almost never use my regular HS now anyways.

[Nemesquish]

Its not a bad idea honestly, I do like having my HS in Nightfallen Hub though....Its just insane that we have to do that to change weapon enchants.

I really hate people who AFK trash cause that is what slows down progression the most, So I want to avoid being that guy.

Hell add it to the 100k Yak mount(This wouldnt allow it to be change at all places, but in EN theres plenty of places you can mount atleast) or something. We just need someway to make it happen

[RuneDK]

Frost should have a portable runeforge end of story.

[Baddok21]

I was thinking about it last night and I realized that there would have to be such huge buffs to frost that it is just not going to happen. The issue is simply that we have limited sources of damage. The reason frozen pulse is good for everything is because it gives use another source of damage. This is also why trinkets that add another damage source are so strong. Think about it, our damage sources are:

Strikes - 50% ish of our damage
Auto Attacks - 10% ish
Frost Fever - 5% ish
Stupid Swords at our sides - 8% ish
Frozen Pulse - 7% ish
Razor Ice - 3% ish

Then we make up the rest with sindragosa, trinkets, potions. So where are they going to buff? If they buff the strikes (frost strike, obliterate, howling blast) it will make DKs super top tier because of the burst damage it would create. Buff auto attacks? We would need something like a 300% increase to make up the difference.

Look at unholy as a comparison. Think about the pets, Ghoul, Skulker, Army, Gargoyle, etc. There are so many sources of damage that not a single one needs to be OP and hit hard for it all to add up to big numbers

Strikes - 28% ish
Auto Attacks- 10% ish
Pets - 28% ish
Plague and Festering Wounds - 18%ish (could argue festering wounds goes with strikes)
Death Coil - 6%
Shambler - 3%
Pots/trinkets/etc - $7%

So right now, I actually think that Frost simply has a major mechanical flaw because if you buff it up to do damage competitively then you risk making them so strong at burst to shadow everythign else. Think about your frost strike hitting for 300k instead of 120k. Think about how silly that would be in dungeons and world content and that is the kind of buff frost would need to function. Really, frost just needs more sources of damage.

Really all this does is expose just how poorly executed the frost artifact is. This is where we should be getting extra sources of damage. Instead, it is just buffing the small supply of sources we have currently.

Than you have arms warriors with there 1.4 mil Mortal strikes, while having a Raid Defensive and mobility and this notion just falls flat...

we really need to stop with the "be careful how you buff frost cause its on the verge of being the highest dmg spec of all time" and if it ever does happen we know Blizzard track record for quick hotfix nerfs to Hybrid melee... usually results in a hotfix nerf with 6 hrs (IE: Ret Paladins in Dragon soul, FDK before HFC, Enhance in highmaul).

Blizzards track for getting the nerfs out there for hybrid melee is more than promising

[Yoshimiko]

Think about your frost strike hitting for 300k instead of 120k.

Vengeance DH here. I'm sorry: What?! Frost strike hits for 120k?! I don't think anything in my kit hits that weakly and I'm a damn tank. My free/spammy builder does around that damage, and it's by far my lowest portion of damage. My Off-gcd slam does double - triple that damage.

Man, I really want frost DK to be strong so I can play it, I never liked UH. But that...that's so bad. I can't even imagine why blizzard thought that was okay. Frost strike should hit for ~400k in ilvl 850 gear. It hitting for 120k is a complete joke. I hope you guys get the buff you so dearly need. When you guys are pulling 120-150k dps and top-5 are all breaking the 250k mark...something major needs to swing in your favor.

[Kio]

Than you have arms warriors with there 1.4 mil Mortal strikes, while having a Raid Defensive and mobility and this notion just falls flat...

we really need to stop with the "be careful how you buff frost cause its on the verge of being the highest dmg spec of all time" and if it ever does happen we know Blizzard track record for quick hotfix nerfs to Hybrid melee... usually results in a hotfix nerf with 6 hrs (IE: Ret Paladins in Dragon soul, FDK before HFC, Enhance in highmaul).

Blizzards track for getting the nerfs out there for hybrid melee is more than promising

It's weird you're specifying "hybrid melee" when rogue is literally the only melee that isn't a hybrid.

[Baddok21]

It's weird you're specifying "hybrid melee" when rogue is literally the only melee that isn't a hybrid.

Hybrid in this game i guess is roled based.

Hybrid traditionally meant Melee with Caster elements or vise versa.

a battle-Mage would be a hybrid even if it didnt have a tank/healing spec (just DPS)

[Anbokr]

Than you have arms warriors with there 1.4 mil Mortal strikes, while having a Raid Defensive and mobility and this notion just falls flat...

we really need to stop with the "be careful how you buff frost cause its on the verge of being the highest dmg spec of all time" and if it ever does happen we know Blizzard track record for quick hotfix nerfs to Hybrid melee... usually results in a hotfix nerf with 6 hrs (IE: Ret Paladins in Dragon soul, FDK before HFC, Enhance in highmaul).

Blizzards track for getting the nerfs out there for hybrid melee is more than promising

Yeah, this is straight up just a numerical issue. There are plenty of specs without widespread damage sources that are doing extremely well. Arms' damage comes entirely from mortal strike and it's the best single target spec in the game.

Frost DK just needs a straight up 20% buff to obliterate/frost-strike and maybe a minor buff to remorseless winter. Done. Now right up there with enh shammies and unholy at the very least.

The only "problem" buffing the strikes would create is a PvP one, but pvp now has stat templates, so perfecto. Buff the strikes, nerf the frost DK main stat template by 10% and boom, you have a viable PvE spec and a pretty good PvP spec.

[RuneDK]

It's weird you're specifying "hybrid melee" when rogue is literally the only melee that isn't a hybrid.

Forgot hunter too..I don't consider the type of damage (range vs melee) to consider them hybrid.

[Life-Binder]

Unholy has as good if not better burst....

yes but I want to play Frost, not UH, and the dmg gap between Frost and UH is bigger in raids than in 5-mans (at least in lower levels of mythic(+)), right ??

[Coldvibes]

yes but I want to play Frost, not UH, and the dmg gap between Frost and UH is bigger in raids than in 5-mans (at least in lower levels of mythic(+)), right ??

As soon as you start doing M+10's and run into Tyrannical, you will want to be UH again. Frost simply cannot compete on ST.

Also, I thought if we Death Gated inside EN, and we use the Death Gate back, it would take us to the EN GY no?

[RuneDK]

yes but I want to play Frost, not UH, and the dmg gap between Frost and UH is bigger in raids than in 5-mans (at least in lower levels of mythic(+)), right ??

Equal skill/gear no....unholy will outshine it most often than not. Granted I was an undergeared frost dk and beat better geared unholy dks but there were a fight or two in the same mythic dungeon that I got my ass handed to me. It seemed if there were adds I could get Sindragosa's Fury on I could compete...otherwise it was laughable at the difference between the two specs.

[Life-Binder]

As soon as you start doing M+10's and run into Tyrannical, you will want to be UH again. Frost simply cannot compete on ST.

Also, I thought if we Death Gated inside EN, and we use the Death Gate back, it would take us to the EN GY no?

yeah thats why I specified lower mythics

[RuneDK]

As soon as you start doing M+10's and run into Tyrannical, you will want to be UH again. Frost simply cannot compete on ST.

Also, I thought if we Death Gated inside EN, and we use the Death Gate back, it would take us to the EN GY no?

We shouldn't have to go back to acherus and reforge after every fight. There should a "toy" in acherus to supply a portable runeforge.

[Life-Binder]

Equal skill/gear no....unholy will outshine it most often than not. Granted I was an undergeared frost dk and beat better geared unholy dks but there were a fight or two in the same mythic dungeon that I got my ass handed to me. It seemed if there were adds I could get Sindragosa's Fury on I could compete...otherwise it was laughable at the difference between the two specs.

I didnt say it would be better than UH, but the gap is smaller with lower hp mobs and 5-man adds/trash where burst/SF matters more

[Coldvibes]

If I was doing speed clearing lower M+ I'd STILL be Unholy because we at least have Lingering Apparition and Epidemic is fucking lol damage on huge packs. With SF you will be better than UH once every 5 minutes. WHOO.

We shouldn't have to go back to acherus and reforge after every fight. There should a "toy" in acherus to supply a portable runeforge.

Unlike a lot of classes, having a 1 minute hearth to Dal is already pretty neat not to mention DG has a ONE minute cooldown, are you fucking serious?

[hellhamster]

I find myself staying frost for pure aoe, I'm doing really well when aoe lasts for like a minute or so (2 pillars of frost with Icecap + huge trash pulls etc) to the point I'm even topping. Any other scenario and it's unholy for me.

[RuneDK]

If I was doing speed clearing lower M+ I'd STILL be Unholy because we at least have Lingering Apparition and Epidemic is fucking lol damage on huge packs. With SF you will be better than UH once every 5 minutes. WHOO.



Unlike a lot of classes, having a 1 minute hearth to Dal is already pretty neat not to mention DG has a ONE minute cooldown, are you fucking serious?

Are you fucking serious? Trash is part of the raid, trash reduces your time from progressing he longer it takes. One person leaves(granted not in its current form) actually hurts your progression on the next boss.....you shouldn't have to go back to acherus after every boss.