Tulsa Polic Shoot Unarmed Black Man with Hands Up.

[Polyxo]

Actually there are as I already pointed out. But I can see that when you think being a police officer isn't a dangerous job.

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7:42:43 p.m. - Dispatch recording has Shelby saying, "[inaudible] traffic, I've got a subject that won't show me his hands."
7:44:20 p.m. - Helicopter video shows a pilot saying, "Alright, Betty Jo, where you at?" The camera hovers above two police officers with weapons drawn. Crutcher walks toward his SUV with his hands in the air.

Are you really trying to say that something said at 7:44:20 pm occurred BEFORE something said at 7:42:43 pm?

It's not. There are several mundane, everyday jobs that are significantly more dangerous. Garbage disposal, bartending, club/bar security, truck driving, cab driving. That's not even considering uniquely dangerous jobs like logging and fishing.

[Captain N]

7:42:43 p.m. - Dispatch recording has Shelby saying, "[inaudible] traffic, I've got a subject that won't show me his hands."
7:44:20 p.m. - Helicopter video shows a pilot saying, "Alright, Betty Jo, where you at?" The camera hovers above two police officers with weapons drawn. Crutcher walks toward his SUV with his hands in the air.

Are you really trying to say that something said at 7:44:20 pm occurred BEFORE something said at 7:42:43 pm?

Nope I'm saying that Shelby claimed to dispatch that Crutcher wasn't showing his hands -- Oddly enough her own dashcam is turned off at this point so all we have his her audio of the 90-120 seconds before Tyler shows up on the scene and the police helicopter is in the air.

So as I've asked earlier is it possible Shelby is making up the fact that Crutcher wasn't showing hands because the initial report was that he was not listening to commands yet we have the pilots making the comments that his hands were indeed in the air the entire time:


“He refused to follow commands given by the officers,” MacKenzie told the AP. “They continued to talk to him, he continued not to listen and follow any commands.”

However, helicopter footage obtained and published by the Tulsa World shows Crutcher had his hands up the entire time during his fatal encounter with responding officers. In the helicopter footage, a police officer is heard saying, “That looks like a bad dude, too. Probably on something.”

You also made a previous statement that Crutcher was on drugs -- I once again ask you to prove that he was on drugs instead of the "coincidental" incident of the police finding PCP in his vehicle after the fact.

[alexkeren]

It's not. There are several mundane, everyday jobs that are significantly more dangerous. Garbage disposal, bartending, club/bar security, truck driving, cab driving. That's not even considering uniquely dangerous jobs like logging and fishing.

And yet if you asked any one of those people if they thought being a cop was a safer job what would they say?

Hint: Similar question was asked on Deadliest Catch, and they'd rather go crabbing.

[Polyxo]

And yet if you asked any one of those people if they thought being a cop was a safer job what would they say?

Hint: Similar question was asked on Deadliest Catch, and they'd rather go crabbing.

So your argument is fuck statistics.

[NineSpine]

Thanks for letting me know to disregard most of what you say from here on out. 911 calls reporting someone running from a vehicle warning its about to explode is just an abandoned vehicle. The claims of an impending explosion wasn't what caused so many cops to show up, it was because a black person was spotted in the area.

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Green Mountain Boys didn't suggest that any such laws existed, only that treating others with respect will likely end up in them treating you with respect. But apparently you can't talk about the golden rule, basically the basis for a moral society, without talking about "segregationists and racists".

What you are describing is not the basis for a moral society, but the basis for authoritarianism: Respect authority or else.

[alexkeren]

Nope I'm saying that Shelby claimed to dispatch that Crutcher wasn't showing his hands -- Oddly enough her own dashcam is turned off at this point so all we have his her audio of the 90-120 seconds before Tyler shows up on the scene and the police helicopter is in the air.

So as I've asked earlier is it possible Shelby is making up the fact that Crutcher wasn't showing hands because the initial report was that he was not listening to commands yet we have the pilots making the comments that his hands were indeed in the air the entire time:


“He refused to follow commands given by the officers,” MacKenzie told the AP. “They continued to talk to him, he continued not to listen and follow any commands.”

However, helicopter footage obtained and published by the Tulsa World shows Crutcher had his hands up the entire time during his fatal encounter with responding officers. In the helicopter footage, a police officer is heard saying, “That looks like a bad dude, too. Probably on something.”

You also made a previous statement that Crutcher was on drugs -- I once again ask you to prove that he was on drugs instead of the "coincidental" incident of the police finding PCP in his vehicle after the fact.

The helicopter was NOT on scene first.

Is it possible she was lying about his hands, sure, but you can't use a comment made when the helicopter arrived 1:37 after her comment as proof she lied.

[NineSpine]

And yet if you asked any one of those people if they thought being a cop was a safer job what would they say?

Hint: Similar question was asked on Deadliest Catch, and they'd rather go crabbing.

"2+2=4"
"Yeah, but if you asked Steve, he says it equals 5."

Rock solid argument.

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The helicopter was NOT on scene first.

Is it possible she was lying about his hands, sure, but you can't use a comment made when the helicopter arrived 1:37 after her comment as proof she lied.

It doesn't matter. Police should not be discharging their weapons unless there is an imminent threat.

[alexkeren]

So your argument is fuck statistics.

No, my argument is you can't say it's not dangerous.

[NineSpine]

No, my argument is you can't say it's not dangerous.

We have statistics of how dangerous different jobs are. It isn't that dangerous. That's just a fact.

[alexkeren]

"2+2=4"
"Yeah, but if you asked Steve, he says it equals 5."

Rock solid argument.

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It doesn't matter. Police should not be discharging their weapons unless there is an imminent threat.

Please quote me where I said this shooting was justified. I won't hold my breath.

[NineSpine]

Please quote me where I said this shooting was justified. I won't hold my breath.

Please quote me where I said that you said this shooting was justified. I won't hold my breath.

[Captain N]

The helicopter was NOT on scene first.

Is it possible she was lying about his hands, sure, but you can't use a comment made when the helicopter arrived 1:37 after her comment as proof she lied.

I never claimed the helicopter was there first -- That's you putting words in my mouth.

The issue I have is that we have an Officer Shelby by herself who mysteriously has her dash cam off -- Which much like the outward facing camera on a locomotive requires you to actively switch it off as it remains running all the time unless it's shut off or "becomes unplugged" saying that Crutcher was not responsive to her demands....

Yet in the whole two minutes it takes both Tyler and the helicopter to show up on the scene we can clearly see Crutcher with his hands in the air walking back towards his SUV.

Considering the initial report claims that Crutcher was never responsive to the police commands yet video evidence contradicts it -- Is it not plausible to assume that Shelby (who was twice before accused of excessive force although the charges were dropped) over reacted to the situation and lied on the radio?

[ElDoorO]

"2+2=4"
"Yeah, but if you asked Steve, he says it equals 5."

Rock solid argument.

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It doesn't matter. Police should not be discharging their weapons unless there is an imminent threat.

From the video it looks like he dropped his hands. Then a few seconds later he was tased and shot. People conceal weapons in the waist area of their clothes or pockets. You don't drop hands. You don't continually walk away from officers.

If you reach for something and aren't obeying orders -- what do you expect will happen?

[petej0]

What you are describing is not the basis for a moral society, but the basis for authoritarianism: Respect authority or else.

It has nothing to do with "authoritarianism". Why would you not want to be polite to someone who was just doing their job?

[KeirAdish]

Looks like officer Shelby will be charged with 1st degree manslaughter.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/tulsa-polic...ry?id=42290178

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/22/us/tul....html?adkey=bn

[alexkeren]

We have statistics of how dangerous different jobs are. It isn't that dangerous. That's just a fact.

http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cftb0286.pdf

Looked it up for 2014

126 officers died in the line of duty
92 in logging
24 in fishing

[Polyxo]

Looked it up for 2014

126 officers died in the line of duty
92 in logging
24 in fishing

There are way more cops than loggers or fisherman. You really don't understand how this works, do you?

[alexkeren]

I never claimed the helicopter was there first -- That's you putting words in my mouth.

The issue I have is that we have an Officer Shelby by herself who mysteriously has her dash cam off -- Which much like the outward facing camera on a locomotive requires you to actively switch it off as it remains running all the time unless it's shut off or "becomes unplugged" saying that Crutcher was not responsive to her demands....

Yet in the whole two minutes it takes both Tyler and the helicopter to show up on the scene we can clearly see Crutcher with his hands in the air walking back towards his SUV.

Considering the initial report claims that Crutcher was never responsive to the police commands yet video evidence contradicts it -- Is it not plausible to assume that Shelby (who was twice before accused of excessive force although the charges were dropped) over reacted to the situation and lied on the radio?

So you claim that walking away from the officers is following commands?

Based upon that belief, no clearly he wasn't commands. Just because he had his hands up at that point doesn't mean ever complied with orders.

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There are way more cops than loggers or fisherman. You really don't understand how this works, do you?

I guess neither does the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

[Captain N]

So you claim that walking away from the officers is following commands?

Based upon that belief, no clearly he wasn't commands. Just because he had his hands up at that point doesn't mean ever complied with orders.

Do you have any proof that he was instructed to do anything else? Or is this another one of your things like the drug claim -- that because X it must mean Y?

All we have documented is Shelby saying "He won't show me his hands" -- and then when everyone else is on the scene we have evidence contradicting her. Which means that even if we go by your logic that he wasn't following orders....At the moment Tyler, Dunn, and the fourth officer showed up he was indeed showing his hands.

So unless you can show me something where any of those four officers gave any demands other than Shelby's initial claim about his hands...You have no argument.

[Zomis]

Looks like officer Shelby will be charged with 1st degree manslaughter.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/tulsa-polic...ry?id=42290178

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/22/us/tul....html?adkey=bn

Doubt she will be found guilty, the guy was on high on PCP and he was ignoring commands and he stopped his vehicle in the middle of the road, she had no idea he was unarmed at the time.