After 12 years, why do people still refer to grind as "content"?

[Ryzael]

Do tell us, in all your wisdom, what is "depth" in YOUR mind...? Can't wait to know.

Runescape Questing has depth. Best quest system (that I know about).
If guides didn't exist some people would still be stuck on those puzzles today. Decisions you make play a part in sequels. Never asks you to kill 20 boars (that's slayer skill).

[IIamaKing]

Once you spend the time grinding BIS gear, yes they are. Hardest part about raiding has always been organizing a large amount of people that are geared to raid, never raid difficulty.

SO you DO have Mythic+15 then, just need 5 people, you can find them in the GF. I mean that the only hard part getting the people, right. lol

[Queen of Hamsters]

Runescape Questing has depth. Best quest system (that I know about).
If guides didn't exist some people would still be stuck on those puzzles today. Decisions you make play a part in sequels. Never asks you to kill 20 boars (that's slayer skill).

Subjective, in other words. To someone who doesn't enjoy Runescape questing, it has 0 depth. Do tell, in what WAY does Runescape questing have such depth?

[Hexxidecimal]

Once you spend the time grinding BIS gear, yes they are. Hardest part about raiding has always been organizing a large amount of people that are geared to raid, never raid difficulty.

So now you just disregard all the effort and skill required to get that gear? Why don't you tell us about your raid experience. I would like to know. Because for me and mine raids have been challenge and getting to a point where you have all that gear means you have to have ALREADY USED SKILL AND KNOWLEDGE TO BEAT THOSE BOSSES WITH OUT IT. Additionally enough times to gear everyone in the raid out. Yes, at this point things get easier.

[Hexxidecimal]

Runescape Questing has depth. Best quest system (that I know about).
If guides didn't exist some people would still be stuck on those puzzles today. Decisions you make play a part in sequels. Never asks you to kill 20 boars (that's slayer skill).

Meh, I preferred Secret World questing. Though the combat was bad in that game, but if we are comparing it to runescape....

[Kanegasi]

(the pointless shit, i.e. anything almost everything not PVP)

That's funny, because I think the opposite. PvP has always been a minor part of the game. An afterthought that just happened to develop into something people did in vanilla. A backseat in the grand scheme of the game. Even today, I find it odd that thousands of players log into a mainly PvE game just to ignore it in its entirety. No lore, no quests, no dungeons, nothing but killing players. It just sounds so dull. So... pointless.

[Ryzael]

The best players in the world wiped 900 times in a single raid. I'm sure they would like to have you, seeing as how you seem to be some form of super player.

Sounds like they weren't fully geared up yet.

Subjective, in other words. To someone who doesn't enjoy Runescape questing, it has 0 depth. Do tell, in what WAY does Runescape questing have such depth?

No, just because you don't enjoy something does not mean it has 0 depth. Path of exile has a crazy complex path system that I couldn't even figure out when I first looked at it, I don't like path of exile therefore its path system isn't as complex as the wow skilling system! No.

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So now you just disregard all the effort and skill required to get that gear? Why don't you tell us about your raid experience. I would like to know. Because for me and mine raids have been challenge and getting to a point where you have all that gear means you have to have ALREADY USED SKILL AND KNOWLEDGE TO BEAT THOSE BOSSES WITH OUT IT. Additionally enough times to gear everyone in the raid out. Yes, at this point things get easier.

Max yourself out in pre-raid, easy time in raid. Max yourself out in raid, move on to next raid.
Most people can't do it because they never get enough drops to max out their gear at the appropriate tier to move on. And of course, relying on an entire group of people to also be appropriately geared, not just yourself.

[jeanericuser001]

That all sounds good until you ask:

"Won't they still only be able to produce X amount of content in Y time? Gating it doesn't mean they can just magically make more."

and:

"So how will you gate this progression? Grinds or pure time? Nothing would really change, then."

I take it you are not a pre bc wow player. Check out some of the way blizzard did some content pre bc. You will see what I mean if you look at how blizzard did things before they started to give access away as soon as an expansion or content patch hit. A good example is scholomance key. It combines multiple quests, grinding, rep grinding, profession work, travel, and a group quest or two. Then you get access to an instance and that doesn't end it as there is unlockable quest in the instance to unlock even more content such as extra bosses. http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/The_Ke...ce_quest_chain

[Polybius]

Sounds like they weren't fully geared up yet.

BiS gear for top raiders won't drop elsewhere. World Quests and Mythics have a lower cap for Warforged and Titanforged item levels.

There's no other way around it.

[jeanericuser001]

I've played since before the game was even released, so nice try.

And yeah, you're just demonstrating what I said. It was still just one instance, and just gated behind grinds/time. There's nothing about what you're saying that really addresses Llamakings' core question about being able to produce enough content to keep up with consumption.

Are you sure you were playing back then cause if you were you would have remembered this was common for several instances and raids. The time requirements were often so large it took weeks and even months to get it all unlocked and even then there were many bosses which were not unlocked even after the next patch was done. This method does work but blizzard abandoned it cause people preferred instant access to all content without effort.

[Deleted]

I enjoy the grind.

[Deleted]

MMOS ARE GRIND
jesus...if you dont like grind dont play mmos, maybe you no longer like that genre.
I no longer like FPS like i did years ago so i never touch them anymore, its not uncommon times change tastes change

No, mmos don't necessary mean grind. The genre just didn't evolve and kinda died since nobody is making AAA mmorpg anymore.

[subanark]

There really isn't any "leveling farming"... at least for mains. You go through all new content while leveling, which if you are a new player will start at level 100.

Rep farming isn't really needed, as there is nothing really necessary that is unlocked, and it is done with world quests farming.

If you have friends and can avoid AH, gold farming isn't really a thing either.

[Ripitgood]

Mats farming
Rep farming
Artifact farming
Level farming
Gold farming
Gear grinding
Achievement farming (the pointless shit, i.e. anything almost everything not PVP)
Daily farming
etc

Any action which consists of repetitive actions which require no real personal skill (aside from knowing your class combos and not to stand in fire) nor offer any challenge, which simply required time wasted to be completed.

Where are the in-game lore books, where are the parties of enemies attacking different outposts with different strategies each time requiring player intervention, where are the secrets aside from something to summon another mount boss, where is the new mounted/aerial/naval combat based on skill and not memorized rotations, where are the Wintergrasp style PVP world zones with different tactics to breach your enemies' keeps, like tunneling, ladders and flying machines?

It's been 12 years of the same, same grind, to the point I see people actually cheering for fucking REP GRINDS, like you didn't get enough of it during BC, and daily quests. Why are these grinds so LOVINGLY referred to by people as content?

Because if you define content as content or "farming" or "grinding" it's still new content.

Legion is new, and back to the sort of play style MOST of the wow community prefers. Rep-Grinds included. Some of us like or can only log in for a little while each day or every couple of days. So having something that I can do that is at least moving forward in terms of progression. Things that also require time and investment feel rewarding. Not everything should be instant in anything really.

Really the issue isn't the game in any way shape or form. The issue is you. I don't mean this in a rude or mean way. I simply don't think MMO's are your thing. They are if you strip everything away a grind to grind for a new grind. Because you're always doing something to better the same character or characters either a large % or a small % or for a nice looking set of gear or for an achievement or tittle, or mini pet or mount, or some other form of virtual currency/validation that in the grand scheme of things doesn't matter. But brings enjoyment and fond memories to some.

Maybe find a different game? And maybe a different forum to complain about? Hmmm, IDK. I've been playing wow fairly happily for 11 years, only really taking a large scale break in WoD. Sooo who am I to judge.

[Khaledra]

Mats farming
Rep farming
Artifact farming
Level farming
Gold farming
Gear grinding
Achievement farming (the pointless shit, i.e. anything almost everything not PVP)
Daily farming
etc

Any action which consists of repetitive actions which require no real personal skill (aside from knowing your class combos and not to stand in fire) nor offer any challenge, which simply required time wasted to be completed.

Where are the in-game lore books, where are the parties of enemies attacking different outposts with different strategies each time requiring player intervention, where are the secrets aside from something to summon another mount boss, where is the new mounted/aerial/naval combat based on skill and not memorized rotations, where are the Wintergrasp style PVP world zones with different tactics to breach your enemies' keeps, like tunneling, ladders and flying machines?

It's been 12 years of the same, same grind, to the point I see people actually cheering for fucking REP GRINDS, like you didn't get enough of it during BC, and daily quests. Why are these grinds so LOVINGLY referred to by people as content?

Hello, and welcome to the world of RPGs where the rule is: If you can't beat the content, grind more for better gear/items/etc!

Like seriously, if you think WoW is a grind, do your self a favour and avoid Final Fantasy games, esp the older ones like FF6. I played that game (as FFIII on the SNES) in high school. I spent hours grinding random encounters to afford gear and get some levels so I wouldn't die in the next section. I spent hours grinding random encounters in the veldt so ONE DUDE could learn all the abilities of the monsters there. Half the content was grinding. That was 1994/1995. It is now 2016 and RPGs are STILL grindy. Get used to it, or go play something else.

[Deleted]

No, mmos don't necessary mean grind. The genre just didn't evolve and kinda died since nobody is making AAA mmorpg anymore.

True, just because the genre didnt evolve doesn't mean MMO's are necessarily a grind fiesta of time gated content.
That's crazy.

People are saying here that what makes MMO's special and unique is time gated content and grinds...LOL wtf.

[jeanericuser001]

What are you even arguing, then? You seemed to be disagreeing with his post about there being no way to produce enough content to keep up with consumption other than grinds/timesinks...and then you present an "alternative" which is just grinds/timesinks.

Man how dense are you? These are classic examples of unlockable progression content. What makes grinding suck so much is the lack of measurable progress. These days its just unremarkable dailies which send you to do the same frickin thing over and over and over. These content didn't serve as a time sink as everything was progress to something bigger. When you did have to grind it was in environments much like the timeless isle with easy enemies as well as elites and rares. That is what made the grind for bone fragments interesting as the amount of enemies to kill was unknown but so were some of the rewards as you never knew what you might find. I got a few world drop epics there during that grind. This content in of itself was very rewarding and when it was done I got to move on to something else somewhere else. The concept worked and although it was not instant access like some wanted, it gave you measurable progress and some rewards unlike some content right now.

[Lane]

If anything, the genre seemed to be trying very hard to move away from arbitrary grinds and timesinks for a while there, then it kinda seemed like Blizzard started running out of ideas on that front.

I don't think it's that they ran out of ideas, I think it's because they have devs that sincerely want to return to what they believe was the 'golden age' of MMOs. There are so many things other MMOs do right, and Blizzard used to be very good at 'borrowing' ideas and applying improved versions of them to WoW, but ever since WoD it really does seem like some of the design decisions are just outright regressions.

[Vash The Stampede]

We've been conditioned to believe grinding is good, along with daily quests and time gating. Why are raids reset once a week? Do we have to wait a week to farm for loot? But I believe this lazy game design is already negatively effecting WoW.

[Hexxidecimal]

We've been conditioned to believe grinding is good, along with daily quests and time gating. Why are raids reset once a week? Do we have to wait a week to farm for loot? But I believe this lazy game design is already negatively effecting WoW.

It's less about being "conditioned" and more about the reality of game design. We can consume content far quicker than they can create it. Gating (whether it be grinds or just wait x amount of time) is how they slow us down and keep us from consuming content quicker than they are able to push it out. Maybe there is a better way to do things, I don't know. But it seems to me that any way of artificially slowing us down will be rather transparent, especially at this point where the MMO genre is old hat.

That and some people legitimately like grinding. I don't mind it, as long as there are incremental rewards that make me feel like I accomplished something. Basically all MMO's, and to some degree games in general work of the Skinners Box theory. We like to feel accomplishment. It makes us feel good. We play games because they give us a sense of accomplishment, either beating an opponent, getting that piece of sought after gear, hitting max level, dismantling a human opponent, etc etc. Another term for this is Operant conditioning chamber. So just so you know you aren't entirely wrong, it's definitely a form of conditioning. Though the box in this case is ourselves.

Interestingly enough part of this experiment wasn't just being rewarded for doing something but also for being punished for not doing something they want you to do. Wonder what that says about going outside...

All that being said, it's not some nefarious intent on Blizzards part to teach us that grinding is good. Just that it's one way to tackle the issue of creation vs. consumption. It just so happens that this also turns into a skinners box of our own self making.

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Sounds like they weren't fully geared up yet.



No, just because you don't enjoy something does not mean it has 0 depth. Path of exile has a crazy complex path system that I couldn't even figure out when I first looked at it, I don't like path of exile therefore its path system isn't as complex as the wow skilling system! No.

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Max yourself out in pre-raid, easy time in raid. Max yourself out in raid, move on to next raid.
Most people can't do it because they never get enough drops to max out their gear at the appropriate tier to move on. And of course, relying on an entire group of people to also be appropriately geared, not just yourself.

Max yourself out in pre-raid then raids are easy huh...wait whats your raiding qualifications again?