Tulsa Polic Shoot Unarmed Black Man with Hands Up.

[Deleted]

Reportedly, she has been charged http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37447533

edit, missed this had already been mentioned at the bottom of the previous page.

[Polyxo]

So you claim that walking away from the officers is following commands?

Based upon that belief, no clearly he wasn't commands. Just because he had his hands up at that point doesn't mean ever complied with orders.

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I guess neither does the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

BoLS did not personally give you secondary data points that don't help your argument. You really don't understand the concept of probability, do you?

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Looks like officer Shelby will be charged with 1st degree manslaughter.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/tulsa-polic...ry?id=42290178

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/22/us/tul....html?adkey=bn

That seems like an undercharge. Second degree murder would be more appropriate.

[Zomis]

Do you have any proof that he was instructed to do anything else? Or is this another one of your things like the drug claim -- that because X it must mean Y?

All we have documented is Shelby saying "He won't show me his hands" -- and then when everyone else is on the scene we have evidence contradicting her. Which means that even if we go by your logic that he wasn't following orders....At the moment Tyler, Dunn, and the fourth officer showed up he was indeed showing his hands.

So unless you can show me something where any of those four officers gave any demands other than Shelby's initial claim about his hands...You have no argument.

The CNN story says he was ignoring commands, or do you think she told him to march back this his vehicle? Please be more reasonable in your arguments.

[Zomis]

Seriously?

It boggles the mind how eager you guys are to support the police in situations like this.

I didn't say I supported anyone, I just gave my assessment of the situation. It boggles my mind that you didn't figure that out on your own.

[Mistame]

So we have two minutes before the video starts rolling where we have Shelby claiming that Cutcher wasn't showing his hands....

Yet the Helicopter Pilot makes a comment in your own link that he has his hands up and is following orders...

He had his hands up as he was walking away, toward the driver's side of the vehicle. One he got near it, he dropped one of them, with his hand near his waist.

Only there's no proof to him being detained either.

He was "detained" the second the first officer arrived. If you're involved in a scenario that also involves police, you're inherently "detained" until the police have given you leave.

Everything says that Shelby was pointing her gun at the man for failure to comply.

Yeah, and? Suspect acts suspiciously, won't comply, you draw your weapon.

Window was shut. You can see this from helicopters view. The cops would have been able to see this also.

Twenty-some pages later, after it's been said multiple times. You cannot tell from the helicopter view (the video is shit) and only the far left of the officers would have noticed this given their position relative to the vehicle, assuming they could have taken their eyes off the suspect. From the rear view, it looks like he reaches for the window or door.

[Captain N]

The CNN story says he was ignoring commands, or do you think she told him to march back this his vehicle? Please be more reasonable in your arguments.

Except the CNN Story was backing Shelby's claims that he was not showing hands. Commands that were later disproved by video evidence when the other officers and the helicopter showed up on the scene.

No story claims that Crutcher was ever being detained or arrested either meaning it's entirely plausible that he was told to return to his vehicle until a tow truck arrived. The only people making that assessment are those who claim he's been resisting arrest -- yet we have nothing documented in any story claiming he was ever being arrested.

What I question is the mysterious dash cam of Shelby's being off line during this entire scenario when both the camera in the helicopter and the one from Tyler's car are completely functional.

He had his hands up as he was walking away, toward the driver's side of the vehicle. One he got near it, he dropped one of them, with his hand near his waist.



He was "detained" the second the first officer arrived. If you're involved in a scenario that also involves police, you're inherently "detained" until the police have given you leave.



Yeah, and? Suspect acts suspiciously, won't comply, you draw your weapon.



Twenty-some pages later, after it's been said multiple times. You cannot tell from the helicopter view (the video is shit) and only the far left of the officers would have noticed this given their position relative to the vehicle, assuming they could have taken their eyes off the suspect. From the chopper view, it looks like he reaches for the window or door.

1. Yes he was walking away while being escorted and then surrounded by four police officers. At any point those four could have easily overtaken him and cuffed him. That did not happen as he was not under arrest at this time.

2. Tyler, Dunn, and the fourth officer were called onto the scene based on Shelby claiming she was in the midst of a "Dangerous Situation" yet when they arrived there was no danger. Proof shown by the fact that Tyler pulled his tazer as he believed himself. his co-workers, and Crutcher were not a danger to anyone.

3. Or we have a jumpy police officer who mysteriously has a dash cam turned off who pulled a weapon on an individual who is experiencing car trouble.

4. You can see the blood running down the window.

[Mistame]

I love that..."suspect".

If you get pulled over for speeding, you're a "suspect". Does that trigger you or something?

Dudes car breaks down and suddenly we mobilize the fucking fleet to go get him.

You do realize that units assisting another officer is common, even for a routine traffic violation, right?

1. Yes he was walking away while being escorted and then surrounded by four police officers. At any point those four could have easily overtaken him and cuffed him. That did not happen as he was not under arrest at this time.

Shelby claimed that he wasn't showing his hands. The officer in the chopper said, "He's got his hands up there for her now." This implies that NOW he's complying, you know, now that multiple officers AND a police chopper are there. And the officer in the chopper said he ISN'T following orders.

2. Tyler, Dunn, and the fourth officer were called onto the scene based on Shelby claiming she was in the midst of a "Dangerous Situation" yet when they arrived there was no danger. Proof shown by the fact that Tyler pulled his tazer as he believed himself. his co-workers, and Crutcher were not a danger to anyone.

Nothing to do with what being "detained" is, which is what my comment is directed at. The fact that the officer was there in response to his actions by default makes him "detained".

3. Or we have a jumpy police officer who mysteriously has a dash cam turned off who pulled a weapon on an individual who is experiencing car trouble.

That could be the case. Neither video shows clearly what happened. But I was merely pointing out standard procedure.

4. You can see the blood running down the window.

If you pause it and blow it up, sure. That doesn't mean that the officers could tell the window was up from their angle (huddled at the back corner).

[Zomis]

Except the CNN Story was backing Shelby's claims that he was not showing hands. Commands that were later disproved by video evidence when the other officers and the helicopter showed up on the scene.

No story claims that Crutcher was ever being detained or arrested either meaning it's entirely plausible that he was told to return to his vehicle until a tow truck arrived. The only people making that assessment are those who claim he's been resisting arrest -- yet we have nothing documented in any story claiming he was ever being arrested.

What I question is the mysterious dash cam of Shelby's being off line during this entire scenario when both the camera in the helicopter and the one from Tyler's car are completely functional.



1. Yes he was walking away while being escorted and then surrounded by four police officers. At any point those four could have easily overtaken him and cuffed him. That did not happen as he was not under arrest at this time.

2. Tyler, Dunn, and the fourth officer were called onto the scene based on Shelby claiming she was in the midst of a "Dangerous Situation" yet when they arrived there was no danger. Proof shown by the fact that Tyler pulled his tazer as he believed himself. his co-workers, and Crutcher were not a danger to anyone.

3. Or we have a jumpy police officer who mysteriously has a dash cam turned off who pulled a weapon on an individual who is experiencing car trouble.

4. You can see the blood running down the window.

I'm talking about the new CNN story talking about her arrest, watch the video before you embarrass yourself further

[Captain N]

I'm talking about the new CNN story talking about her arrest, watch the video before you embarrass yourself further

You mean this line right here?

Through her attorney Shelby has said Crutcher was behaving strangely and ignoring her commands, and she was afraid that he might be reaching for a weapon

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/22/us/tul....html?adkey=bn

Which is exactly what I was referring to when I said that the CNN story was about Shelby's claims that he was not showing hands.

[Zomis]

You mean this line right here?

Through her attorney Shelby has said Crutcher was behaving strangely and ignoring her commands, and she was afraid that he might be reaching for a weapon

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/22/us/tul....html?adkey=bn

Which is exactly what I was referring to when I said that the CNN story was about Shelby's claims that he was not showing hands.

Wait, you believe she pulled out her gun, marched him to his car then shot him? Yeah, good luck getting a Jury to believe that.

[Kubaal]

There is more to this story we will never hear about. I mean seriously when is the last time there was 4 officers and a helicopter dispatched for a stalled vehicle.

[Mistame]

Except he wasn't pulled over for speeding or anything else.

No. The officer responded to a possibly dangerous situation and he was the cause of the call, therefore the "suspect". I can use "subject", if that's better for you.

Sure, and a helicopter? I've been pulled over many times, never had a helicopter just for little old me.

Did you leave your car in the middle of the road and say that it was going to blow up, causing someone to call police to a possible dangerous situation? Did you refuse to follow orders and cause the sole officer to call in back up, which in some cities includes a chopper? I mean come on.

There is more to this story we will never hear about. I mean seriously when is the last time there was 4 officers and a helicopter dispatched for a stalled vehicle.

Not sure about those statistics, but that wasn't the case in this scenario. The first-responder called for backup, which happened to include a chopper. Also, the vehicle was running, according to the 911 calls.

[Annoying]

It's not. There are several mundane, everyday jobs that are significantly more dangerous. Garbage disposal, bartending, club/bar security, truck driving, cab driving. That's not even considering uniquely dangerous jobs like logging and fishing.

Being the president is particularly dangerous. Highest mortality rate of any job in the nation.

http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cftb0286.pdf

Looked it up for 2014

126 officers died in the line of duty
92 in logging
24 in fishing

Well, there's ~1.1m police officers and only ~66,000 loggers and ~28,000 commercial fisherman.

So the mortality rate per 100,000 of each:
officers: 11.454
loggers: 139.393
fishermen: 85.714

And for future reference -- 43 total presidents, of which 4 have been killed while serving, which is 9302.326 per 100,000.

[Captain N]

Wait, you believe she pulled out her gun, marched him to his car then shot him? Yeah, good luck getting a Jury to believe that.

Nope I believe we have a few questions that need to be answered on Shelby's actions:

1. For someone in a "Dangerous Situation" as Shelby claims to have been in how did it de-escalate in the 2 minutes it took from her call to dispatch to the arrival of Officer Tyler?

2. Why is Shelby's dash cam not on during this entire scenario while Tyler and that of the helicopter are both operating just fine?

3. Why couldn't the 4 officers on duty cuff and arrest Cutcher if he was supposedly under arrest as the people here are claiming that he was being detained/arrested and by not following orders was resisting arrest?

4. Shelby claims that she thought he was reaching for a weapon. So what we have here is a woman saying that in the two minutes she was alone with Cutcher she didn't think he had a weapon as she didn't shoot when she claimed he had his hands in his pockets yet pulls the trigger when his hands go from being up in the air to down....in the course of seconds?

[I Push Buttons]

Nope I believe we have a few questions that need to be answered on Shelby's actions:

1. For someone in a "Dangerous Situation" as Shelby claims to have been in how did it de-escalate in the 2 minutes it took from her call to dispatch to the arrival of Officer Tyler?

2. Why is Shelby's dash cam not on during this entire scenario while Tyler and that of the helicopter are both operating just fine?

3. Why couldn't the 4 officers on duty cuff and arrest Cutcher if he was supposedly under arrest as the people here are claiming that he was being detained/arrested and by not following orders was resisting arrest?

4. Shelby claims that she thought he was reaching for a weapon. So what we have here is a woman saying that in the two minutes she was alone with Cutcher she didn't think he had a weapon as she didn't shoot when she claimed he had his hands in his pockets yet pulls the trigger when his hands go from being up in the air to down....in the course of seconds?

Even though I think she made a mistake and is in the wrong, to respond to the bold portion, things can be going perfectly fine until they're not.

[Captain N]

Even though I think she made a mistake and is in the wrong, to respond to the bold portion, things can be going perfectly fine until they're not.

I'm not denying that things can go south. The issue with this scenario is that Shelby claims that Crutcher had his hands in his pockets and wouldn't show them to her. Which is what I find odd when the helicopter pilot says that "He's showing hands now!" which is a mere 90 seconds after Shelby's call about a Dangerous Situation. Nowhere from the time the other officers arrive until the shooting of Crutcher does he appear to be a threat...even with the arms being dropped.

To be fair there isn't even enough time for Crutcher's hands in the video to go from full extension over his head to drawing a weapon even if he had one in the time it takes Tyler to taze and Shelby to shoot him. Could something have possibly gone bad here? Sure but it didn't which indicates a paranoid Officer Shelby from the onset up until the shooting.

[PACOX]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/22/politi...ice/index.html

Mass. Supreme Court finds that black males, even innocent ones, are more likely to run due to unfavorable encounters with the police.

But some say there isn't a problem...

[the game]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/22/politi...ice/index.html

Mass. Supreme Court finds that black males, even innocent ones, are more likely to run due to unfavorable encounters with the police.

But some say there isn't a problem...

if they wouldn't run they wouldn't have unfavorable encounters with police.

[Mistame]

The issue with this scenario is that Shelby claims that Crutcher had his hands in his pockets and wouldn't show them to her. Which is what I find odd when the helicopter pilot says that "He's showing hands now!" which is a mere 90 seconds after Shelby's call about a Dangerous Situation.

So you're dismissing the possibility that he could have had his hands in his pockets and refused to show them and then raised his hands once he heard the sirens/helicopter? It's like you're being obtuse just for the sake of doing so.

[Captain N]

So you're dismissing the possibility that he could have had his hands in his pockets and refused to show them and then raised his hands once he heard the sirens/helicopter? It's like you're being obtuse just for the sake of doing so.

Are you denying that it's plausible that Shelby intentionally turned off her dash cam and that she was possibly lying about the whole intial run-in with Crutcher?

I mean we do have reports that say that Crutcher was never following police commands and yet we later found out that was a lie. Talk about being purposely obtuse.